Hi there,
I have built couple of TABAQ variations, and quite like them. Especially the softness of MLTL. Have built none of multi-way units.
Requirements:
1. Two way with the main "star" being the woofer unit. Thinking ~6 inch woofer with tweeter or quality full-range. It can be 1.5 or 2.5 way, if it works.
2. Passive crossover.
3. Size is no limit! Any size, any size of the baffle, any shape of cabinet. Full size floor standers. No need to go high WAF but that does not mean that it has to look weird.
4. 40Hz F3 is ok, no need to go much lower, but will need to sound at least OK without woofer.
5. MLTL, TL, Horn or other. Everything works except open baffle or bass reflex. Also no line arrays for now. Pls no flame about this, this is personal preference, like color of cabinets.
6. The budget for drivers and crossovers is up to ~300-400EUR per pair, that is the same in USD, as the drivers tend to be cheaper on other side of the pond.
7. There has to be balance between the quantity and quality of sound, preference on... hmm.... maybe quality 60%, quantity 40%.
8. It will be driven by class D amp, but must sound well with others.
9. Drivers have to be available in EU.
Right now leaning to building 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor MLTL version but still not decided. There is not much other on my mind...
Any advice is ok, be generous
I have built couple of TABAQ variations, and quite like them. Especially the softness of MLTL. Have built none of multi-way units.
Requirements:
1. Two way with the main "star" being the woofer unit. Thinking ~6 inch woofer with tweeter or quality full-range. It can be 1.5 or 2.5 way, if it works.
2. Passive crossover.
3. Size is no limit! Any size, any size of the baffle, any shape of cabinet. Full size floor standers. No need to go high WAF but that does not mean that it has to look weird.
4. 40Hz F3 is ok, no need to go much lower, but will need to sound at least OK without woofer.
5. MLTL, TL, Horn or other. Everything works except open baffle or bass reflex. Also no line arrays for now. Pls no flame about this, this is personal preference, like color of cabinets.
6. The budget for drivers and crossovers is up to ~300-400EUR per pair, that is the same in USD, as the drivers tend to be cheaper on other side of the pond.
7. There has to be balance between the quantity and quality of sound, preference on... hmm.... maybe quality 60%, quantity 40%.
8. It will be driven by class D amp, but must sound well with others.
9. Drivers have to be available in EU.
Right now leaning to building 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor MLTL version but still not decided. There is not much other on my mind...
Any advice is ok, be generous
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The Lewis from Gazza fits your specifications perfectly. This is a TQWT with drivers from Sica and Tymphany / Peerless. Very high quality at an affordable price. It even makes bass up to 30Hz and that with an astonishingly high sound pressure, without becoming unclean. Measurements are excellent. The parts cost around € 130-150 per speaker.
I've heard the speaker several times and I've always been amazed at how well the Lewis plays.
The site is in German, but all information is easy to find.
Pegelfeste lineare TQWT mit 30Hz Tiefgang und gutem Abstrahlverhalten - gazza-diy-audio.de
I've heard the speaker several times and I've always been amazed at how well the Lewis plays.
The site is in German, but all information is easy to find.
Pegelfeste lineare TQWT mit 30Hz Tiefgang und gutem Abstrahlverhalten - gazza-diy-audio.de
nas,
if it is in your budged you can look here.
Lautsprecher Shop | Emotion-Line TQWT SICA | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
It is a full Kit.
if it is in your budged you can look here.
Lautsprecher Shop | Emotion-Line TQWT SICA | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
It is a full Kit.
Yes, someone probably took a look at the Lewis.
The measurements are unfortunately not that nice, at around 3kHz a lot of energy is emitted into the room. And the TQWT is also not matched in a comparable way, but probably comes from a simple tool witch never works really well.
Certainly not bad for the price, but I would still invest a few more euros and build the Lewis.
The measurements are unfortunately not that nice, at around 3kHz a lot of energy is emitted into the room. And the TQWT is also not matched in a comparable way, but probably comes from a simple tool witch never works really well.
Certainly not bad for the price, but I would still invest a few more euros and build the Lewis.
That is indeed a very interresting speaker! The graphs are amazing. I have 3 inch full ranger speaker from Sica, it plays well. Lets hope, that other speakers from them are good also.
As a negative, I see 17 parts in crossover... That is a lot.
Yes, my budget fits. Is it the same speaker variation? Do you know what speaker drivers are there?
Thanks. It seems a bit over the budget but interesting and tempting.
Btw, those are 2 different speakers, photo and drawings. Crossover design available?
The XO for the big MTM is well sorted, the varuous XOs for the Nanosaurus (and its range of applicable midTweeters, are at this point suggestions for a starting point.
Tysen V2 also has a well-worked out XO, is quite cheap, but the woofers are, as far as i can figure so far, only available in North America. Shipping would likely double their cost.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
The visualization only shows the straight rectangular version. My prerred variation is the one that leans back 5°.
dave
Tysen V2 also has a well-worked out XO, is quite cheap, but the woofers are, as far as i can figure so far, only available in North America. Shipping would likely double their cost.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
The visualization only shows the straight rectangular version. My prerred variation is the one that leans back 5°.
dave
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It is a fully Sica Set Woofer & Teeter.
Same Woofer like in Lewis from Gazza.
For my opinion the Sica Tweeter could sound more fresh,airy in top end.
You can also read the Article from Klang & Ton 01/2021 download in PDF.
Sorry, i don't have it on hand now to give a copie for your own use.
Klang & Ton 1/2021 (epaper) - hifitest.de Shop
"Size is no limit! Any size, any size of the baffle, any shape of cabinet. Full size floor standers"
Since large is OK, why not consider an econowave project? There are plenty of examples that you could copy / modify.
It will have better directivity - that's the core of the econowave idea. It will also have more headroom.
You could build econowave parts into a transmission line or whatever you fancy.
---
I regularly listen to a large system that borrows a lot from the econowave concept. My build would be possible within your budget - the core is a tymphany NE65 (about $30 each) on a DIY horn paired with an 18" EV woofer (I use a sub too, but that's optional).
The final system sensitivity is about the same as the ScanSpeak 10F based system that you are considering (because I have to pad everything back to match the 2kHz - 20kHz range of the NE65).
Some parts options:
The NE65 is nice - cheap, measures well, looks fine, the gasket suits horn mounting, free postage (Digikey) - but I don't think there is anything magic or unique about it. Anything else that measures as well will probably sound just as good (FR plot pictured).
Peerless by Tymphany NE65W-04 - 2" Full-range
I went with 18" EV woofers cos I already owned a pair (I'd bought them 2nd hand bargain hunting). You don't need to spend a million dollars to get decent woofers.
Seller ZXPC on ebay currently has some 2" horns for $50 each, that look like they'd make a good 15" econowave.
Since large is OK, why not consider an econowave project? There are plenty of examples that you could copy / modify.
It will have better directivity - that's the core of the econowave idea. It will also have more headroom.
You could build econowave parts into a transmission line or whatever you fancy.
---
I regularly listen to a large system that borrows a lot from the econowave concept. My build would be possible within your budget - the core is a tymphany NE65 (about $30 each) on a DIY horn paired with an 18" EV woofer (I use a sub too, but that's optional).
The final system sensitivity is about the same as the ScanSpeak 10F based system that you are considering (because I have to pad everything back to match the 2kHz - 20kHz range of the NE65).
Some parts options:
The NE65 is nice - cheap, measures well, looks fine, the gasket suits horn mounting, free postage (Digikey) - but I don't think there is anything magic or unique about it. Anything else that measures as well will probably sound just as good (FR plot pictured).
Peerless by Tymphany NE65W-04 - 2" Full-range
I went with 18" EV woofers cos I already owned a pair (I'd bought them 2nd hand bargain hunting). You don't need to spend a million dollars to get decent woofers.
Seller ZXPC on ebay currently has some 2" horns for $50 each, that look like they'd make a good 15" econowave.
Attachments
That is indeed a very interresting speaker! The graphs are amazing. I have 3 inch full ranger speaker from Sica, it plays well. Lets hope, that other speakers from them are good also.
As a negative, I see 17 parts in crossover... That is a lot.
The bass driver from the Lewis is excellent and can keep up with much more expensive competitors. And the tweeter is a Vifa XT, as it is, for example, built into many Sonus Faber speakers. One of the best tweeters on the market for many years.
Unfortunately people are always being persuaded that many components are bad in the x-over. But that is fundamentally wrong. Of course you should use as few parts as possible, but if a few more parts give a better acoustic result, why should that be bad?
The positive influence of a well-developed x-over is much more important than the tiny disadvantage of having more parts.
And you also have to pay attention to where the parts are in the x-over. Many parts have been used for the woofer, but only one part, namely the low-pass coil, is in series with the woofer. All other parts are parallel to the driver and therefore have no tonal disadvantage.
You can of course wire the loudspeaker with less effort, then something like the emotion line comes out. Not bad, but not as good as the Lewis.
hollowboy,
I had absolutely no idea, what econowave is, from quick search it looks like a name for DIY mid and highs horn + woofer, right?
Regarding the size: I have no need to make it big or wide or weird in some way for the sake of it. If the slim is better - works for me either.
p.s. Yes, it is tempting to make a real big box!!!
"DIY mid and highs horn + woofer"
Essentially, yes. The non-obvious bits are:
1) The horn is usually a simple modern design; relatively short and wide type with no slots or abrupt transitions in angle.
2) The crossover is set so that the drivers have equal coverage, at the crossover point.
e.g. if it is a horn with 90 degrees (horizontal) coverage angle, you set the crossover to the frequency where the woofer's coverage patter has narrowed down to 90 degrees.
The bigger the woofer you use, the lower in frequency this occurs.
"I have no need to make it big or wide or weird in some way for the sake of it"
Fair enough, but the size of the econowave style is not just for giggles.
They are not for everyone, but the benefit is more headroom and a clearly better coverage pattern. The penalties are: the size, the cosmetics (they can look a bit industrial), and the cost; the parts are expensive if you use brand new, high-power premium parts.
I did mine on the cheap by picking the Tymphany 2" driver rather than a pro unit, and by using 2nd hand woofers.
These links show a couple of configurations, and the different coverage patterns obtained. The directivity plots are much better than you get with a a typical midwoofer + tweeter speaker.
S15: Econowave DSP - a Constant Directivity vs Dipole study
Red Spade Audio: Waveguide shootout
The last one measured is only a 10". The horn was available from Parts Express for $11.51 - not ultra huge or costly.
EDIT: another build.
Marantzowave - Econowave 2-way build using locally available parts - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
Also cheap-but-good. 50% salvaged parts.
Essentially, yes. The non-obvious bits are:
1) The horn is usually a simple modern design; relatively short and wide type with no slots or abrupt transitions in angle.
2) The crossover is set so that the drivers have equal coverage, at the crossover point.
e.g. if it is a horn with 90 degrees (horizontal) coverage angle, you set the crossover to the frequency where the woofer's coverage patter has narrowed down to 90 degrees.
The bigger the woofer you use, the lower in frequency this occurs.
"I have no need to make it big or wide or weird in some way for the sake of it"
Fair enough, but the size of the econowave style is not just for giggles.
They are not for everyone, but the benefit is more headroom and a clearly better coverage pattern. The penalties are: the size, the cosmetics (they can look a bit industrial), and the cost; the parts are expensive if you use brand new, high-power premium parts.
I did mine on the cheap by picking the Tymphany 2" driver rather than a pro unit, and by using 2nd hand woofers.
These links show a couple of configurations, and the different coverage patterns obtained. The directivity plots are much better than you get with a a typical midwoofer + tweeter speaker.
S15: Econowave DSP - a Constant Directivity vs Dipole study
Red Spade Audio: Waveguide shootout
The last one measured is only a 10". The horn was available from Parts Express for $11.51 - not ultra huge or costly.
EDIT: another build.
Marantzowave - Econowave 2-way build using locally available parts - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
Also cheap-but-good. 50% salvaged parts.
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Ever try to recap a KEF crossover? Some have N.P. Al-Els all over the place! I did one once and noticed things starting to get real expensive...
Many are to flatten the load impedance that the driving amplifier sees. Well, if the driving amplifier output Z is anything above zero, it'll drop some voltage due to those impedance stabilizing networks, which means you have the sound of an Al-El in there - even if all the "pass" caps are poly!
I read about one guy ripping out all the electrolytics from his output zeroing servo circuits - after he thought about it - concluding the cap conducted signal "touched" his main audio signal. (He was one of those who believed certain cap formulations "had no business" being in an audio signal path).
Many are to flatten the load impedance that the driving amplifier sees. Well, if the driving amplifier output Z is anything above zero, it'll drop some voltage due to those impedance stabilizing networks, which means you have the sound of an Al-El in there - even if all the "pass" caps are poly!
I read about one guy ripping out all the electrolytics from his output zeroing servo circuits - after he thought about it - concluding the cap conducted signal "touched" his main audio signal. (He was one of those who believed certain cap formulations "had no business" being in an audio signal path).
This is not correct because the part that is let through will be short-circuited to the driver.
But I don't want to argue about it. Anyone who thinks he can hear expensive parts should buy them. If you are not sure yet, you should do a (real) blind test and you can save yourself a lot of money from then on.
blind test blind test blind test! lol
Out of 30 some odd kids in social studies class (back in high school) I had to argue with a teacher to turn the got damn tv off (crt tv, black/blank screen, yet screaming somewhere above 10khz).....took about 5 minutes worth of debate because the teacher said the tv "wasn't on" and when he finally pressed the button and the green indicator light went off....thank you lord (he says wow you could hear that?)....and I continued on with my test....no one else could hear it...
Out of 30 some odd kids in social studies class (back in high school) I had to argue with a teacher to turn the got damn tv off (crt tv, black/blank screen, yet screaming somewhere above 10khz).....took about 5 minutes worth of debate because the teacher said the tv "wasn't on" and when he finally pressed the button and the green indicator light went off....thank you lord (he says wow you could hear that?)....and I continued on with my test....no one else could hear it...
Sorry, but what does that have to do with a blind test? I tell you: nothing at all!
There's a very nice report of such a test somewhere. Maybe I'll look for that one time.
There were some people involved who put a lot of money into their parts and were absolutely convinced that they could hear the differences.
However, different amplifiers were tested. Everyone involved noticed the differences when switching, and the tendency was clearly that the expensive amplifiers performed better.
At the very end, everyone was shown that none of the amplifiers were connected to the loudspeaker cable and that it was being operated on a mid-range amp in the next room all the time. There was no switching at all, the same setup was always running - and yet some big differences were heard. Our brain hears what it wants to hear.
There are a few such cases, but nobody wants that to be true.
There's a very nice report of such a test somewhere. Maybe I'll look for that one time.
There were some people involved who put a lot of money into their parts and were absolutely convinced that they could hear the differences.
However, different amplifiers were tested. Everyone involved noticed the differences when switching, and the tendency was clearly that the expensive amplifiers performed better.
At the very end, everyone was shown that none of the amplifiers were connected to the loudspeaker cable and that it was being operated on a mid-range amp in the next room all the time. There was no switching at all, the same setup was always running - and yet some big differences were heard. Our brain hears what it wants to hear.
There are a few such cases, but nobody wants that to be true.