Hi!
As a beginner in DIY, i'm planning to build a bookshelf fullrange monitor with Alpair 12P or 10P.
The front-end is an Audio Note DIY DAC, the amp is an DIY Altmann BYOB.
The room is 22 sq meters, most often listened music genres are classical musik, jazz, opera, occassionally some "tougher" music (e.g. Depeche Mode, Synkro, RATM, Everlast etc.).
The LF will be supported with my REL T5 subwoofer and my intention to get a tube amp in the near future.
Which would be the better choice?
THX in advance!
(sorry for my english)
As a beginner in DIY, i'm planning to build a bookshelf fullrange monitor with Alpair 12P or 10P.
The front-end is an Audio Note DIY DAC, the amp is an DIY Altmann BYOB.
The room is 22 sq meters, most often listened music genres are classical musik, jazz, opera, occassionally some "tougher" music (e.g. Depeche Mode, Synkro, RATM, Everlast etc.).
The LF will be supported with my REL T5 subwoofer and my intention to get a tube amp in the near future.
Which would be the better choice?
THX in advance!
(sorry for my english)
Last edited:
I'd certainly second the recommendation for the 10 over the 12 - although I now tend to favor the metal over paper for its extra detail and extension at the top end. Of course, my hearing is damaged by years of industrial tool noise, and I need all the help I can get in that last octave above approx 10K.
Then there's the question of enclosure. Even if using a powered sub and high-passing the Alpairs,I've always preferred them in a floor stander as opposed to bookshelf / stand mounter - find they deliver "more authoritative mid-bass" dynamics. Sorry - that's my audiophool tweak speak escaping - try to avoid it, but sometimes is leaks out around the seams.
Then there's the question of enclosure. Even if using a powered sub and high-passing the Alpairs,I've always preferred them in a floor stander as opposed to bookshelf / stand mounter - find they deliver "more authoritative mid-bass" dynamics. Sorry - that's my audiophool tweak speak escaping - try to avoid it, but sometimes is leaks out around the seams.
Last edited:
Thanks for the opinions/advices.
Bill: that's exactly what I would expect from them
chrisb: I see what you mean, but I'm a little bit reluctant to use metal drivers ( I don't really like them in multi-way speakers).
Unfortunately, I have no chance to try or listen to them, so I have to make a "blind" decision .
Bill: that's exactly what I would expect from them
chrisb: I see what you mean, but I'm a little bit reluctant to use metal drivers ( I don't really like them in multi-way speakers).
Unfortunately, I have no chance to try or listen to them, so I have to make a "blind" decision .
Speedy: I can understand your hesitancy - I certainly felt the same way after hearing some line arrays with horrid MCM aluminum cones and metal dome tweeter about 15yrs ago, and a pair of damaged Jordan JX92 a short time later.
It certainly was a leap of faith for Dave & I to listen with closed eyes and open mind to our first Mark Audio drivers - the original Alpair5, and its cousin the short lived Jordan labeled product J6T.
For those interested, following is a brief summary from Mark of his side of the story as to the tenuous relationship between the two firms. A lot of water under the bridge, and in the case of EJ Jordan, several changes in design team and production location and agency since 2007 .
That was 10yrs ago, and the current Alpair and Pluvia drivers are certainly in a different class from the average metal cone drivers - but until you experience them for yourself, it's all just hearsay.
It certainly was a leap of faith for Dave & I to listen with closed eyes and open mind to our first Mark Audio drivers - the original Alpair5, and its cousin the short lived Jordan labeled product J6T.
For those interested, following is a brief summary from Mark of his side of the story as to the tenuous relationship between the two firms. A lot of water under the bridge, and in the case of EJ Jordan, several changes in design team and production location and agency since 2007 .
That was 10yrs ago, and the current Alpair and Pluvia drivers are certainly in a different class from the average metal cone drivers - but until you experience them for yourself, it's all just hearsay.
While paying a bit of a penalty of sensitivity over the 12P, I personally prefer the 10P . I find it delivers deeper extension in much more manageable sized enclosures, and my choice of amplifiers has changed over the past decade, and I'm hardly ever using any of my tube amps - certainly not the flea-watt varieties for which the 12Ps in fridge-sized enclosures can absolutely be captivating/ seductive - so the sensitivity is not really an issue.
Ok, I'm persuaded now... It seems I have to reject the idea of building a monitor speaker instead of the pencil.
Let me share with you one of my fears of the 10P. Some years ago I had a full Audio Note setup with an AZ-Two at its end. That was the time when I realised, that I prefer the paper over anything else. Moreover, the AZ-Two had a 8" mid-woofer. This easily filled my room with music (even at low volumes), the singers/intruments had the real "weight" and body.
Can the 10P give me this (the effective piston area is way smaller), or I should consider using 12P (my wife won't appreciate the fridge-sized enclosure...)
Ok, I know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, but...
It seems I have to reject the idea of building a monitor speaker instead of the pencil.Let me share with you one of my fears of the 10P. Some years ago I had a full Audio Note setup with an AZ-Two at its end. That was the time when I realised, that I prefer the paper over anything else. Moreover, the AZ-Two had a 8" mid-woofer. This easily filled my room with music (even at low volumes), the singers/intruments had the real "weight" and body.
Can the 10P give me this (the effective piston area is way smaller), or I should consider using 12P (my wife won't appreciate the fridge-sized enclosure...)
Ok, I know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, but...
Last edited:
I'd recommend the 10p as you mentioned using a subwoofer in your setup. The 10p delivers a better top end (to my ears) and should perform better off axis.
The 12p is a nice driver and probably worth considering if you could deal with a larger enclosure and did not have a subwoofer to supplement the bottom end.
The 12p is a nice driver and probably worth considering if you could deal with a larger enclosure and did not have a subwoofer to supplement the bottom end.
To repeat Robert's last line immediately above, and my own on the prior page - unless you are running a very low powered amplifier and need every last drop of juice from that lemon and/or have absolutely no constraints on enclosure size, then the 10P makes far more sense.
While I much prefer floorstanders for several reasons - not the very least of which is their lack of requirement for stands that can easily cost more than the difference in time and materials required over a bookshelf sized enclosure for the same driver, if you're stuck for space, the 10P or 10.3 metal would definitely be my recommendation.
IINM, the AZ-two is really more of a TQWP than a full-on BLH , such as the FHXL. If you have the floor space to accommodate A10Ps in the latter, or the Woden Silbury, I think they'd definitely hold their own
While I much prefer floorstanders for several reasons - not the very least of which is their lack of requirement for stands that can easily cost more than the difference in time and materials required over a bookshelf sized enclosure for the same driver, if you're stuck for space, the 10P or 10.3 metal would definitely be my recommendation.
IINM, the AZ-two is really more of a TQWP than a full-on BLH , such as the FHXL. If you have the floor space to accommodate A10Ps in the latter, or the Woden Silbury, I think they'd definitely hold their own
Last edited:
Been doing this whole audio thing long enough to become quite an agnostic as to magic properties of wire, but when circumstances require lengthy runs between amps and speakers- whether single driver or multi-ways- or if running very low powered amps with high-ish output impedance, thicker would probably be advisable to avoid resistance losses, or other artifacts.
For internal wiring on almost all of my “full-range” driver builds over the past 15yrs or so, I’ve used short runs of single strands of #24 solid per polarity, sourced from CAT5- you do need to be careful when stripping it as it nicks easily, and will fracture. For lower sensitivity drivers, woofers in multi-ways, cheap hardware store #18 or #16 Zip cord is fine. For really long runs such as to rear surround shannels, and for subs, I’ll go as high as #14.
I know that some hair-shirtists like to run a continuous length from amp to driver or crossover input terminals, but that’s a bit too impractical for me - and I’d love to hear a demonstration of it making a “veils were lifted” improvement in clarity, focus, dynamics, soundstage, etc ad nauseam. Or maybe not.
As for the 12P /vs 10P, I’ll reiterate myself - I found the latter much easier to worth with in terms of enclosure size.
Last edited:
ojla, ok bass is not puchy enough, per example for rock music, i had some version of big pencils (2012)... after i installed ALP 12P in big transmission line , and bass was deeper if i remember... i run 12p always without any bsc filter, puristic aproach.. but i think bsc is needed.. when i listen to many music material, always with 12p i have "white picture" in the sound, i cant concentrate enough on material always is something bothering me..
this "white" picture is pronounced mid-high area which is making sound overall unbalanced! listening with fatique..
tried with SE, PP valve ams, chip amps in last 7 years.
so at the end i quit with FR approach and tried to use it like high sensitivity bass driver (im addicted to tube sound) paired with ribbon on top... ive been satisfied, but needed to work with crosover frequency...this is how looked this installation
measurement are -far field cca 1.5m from the driver in axis...ribbon on the OB has special sound, i like it too much..full enjoyable..also the amplitude of the highs from ribbon is maybe higher but they are nice!
i will se now what to do with this driver... in other neighbour theme there is a filter to try, maybe ill start to implement some BSC .. never ending story
this "white" picture is pronounced mid-high area which is making sound overall unbalanced! listening with fatique..
tried with SE, PP valve ams, chip amps in last 7 years.
so at the end i quit with FR approach and tried to use it like high sensitivity bass driver (im addicted to tube sound) paired with ribbon on top... ive been satisfied, but needed to work with crosover frequency...this is how looked this installation
measurement are -far field cca 1.5m from the driver in axis...ribbon on the OB has special sound, i like it too much..full enjoyable..also the amplitude of the highs from ribbon is maybe higher but they are nice!
i will se now what to do with this driver... in other neighbour theme there is a filter to try, maybe ill start to implement some BSC .. never ending story
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.