I made a thread here not long ago about building a soundsystem, and thanks to my friends, google and your help I have made enough progress to now move on to amplifiers and cross-overs/whatever else needed. Im currently in the early steps of building the cabinets, and the parts for the speakers aside from high top are ordered but not on their way yet.
My soundsystem will be two Fane Colossus 18XB's, with two Fane Sovereign 12-300 for mid frequencies, and two BMS 4554 1.4" compression drivers for high frequencies. Its a rather compact design, stacked and played in mono, similar to reggae sound systems. Subs would be from ~35 to ~80hz, and the mids from 80 to 1.5-2k / wherever it sounds best to switch for the BMS 4554. I will be buying Thomanns t.amp TSA 4-700 from a friend for a very good price to run at least the mids and probably compression drivers too.
SUB; https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/COLOSSUS-18XB
MID; https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-12-300
TOP; Overview
TSA 4-700; https://www.thomann.de/fi/the_tamp_tsa_4700.htm?ref=search_rslt_t+amp+4+700_218915_0
*edit*
I have also recently bought a used Crown XLS 5000 to run the subwoofers;
Crown XLS 5000 Power Amplifier | Musician's Friend
Basically, If my speakers go to the two amplifiers, the two amplifiers go to a crossover, that crossover goes to a mixer and that mixer goes to a laptop/audio source, would I be all set? Is there a need or an advantage in having a third amplifier so that the subs, mids and high top all go to different amps & then to a crossover, or can I run it like this?
I am now looking for decent and not too expensive 3-way crossovers, where I would connect all of the speakers.
Many thanks in advance!
My soundsystem will be two Fane Colossus 18XB's, with two Fane Sovereign 12-300 for mid frequencies, and two BMS 4554 1.4" compression drivers for high frequencies. Its a rather compact design, stacked and played in mono, similar to reggae sound systems. Subs would be from ~35 to ~80hz, and the mids from 80 to 1.5-2k / wherever it sounds best to switch for the BMS 4554. I will be buying Thomanns t.amp TSA 4-700 from a friend for a very good price to run at least the mids and probably compression drivers too.
SUB; https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/COLOSSUS-18XB
MID; https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-12-300
TOP; Overview
TSA 4-700; https://www.thomann.de/fi/the_tamp_tsa_4700.htm?ref=search_rslt_t+amp+4+700_218915_0
*edit*
I have also recently bought a used Crown XLS 5000 to run the subwoofers;
Crown XLS 5000 Power Amplifier | Musician's Friend
Basically, If my speakers go to the two amplifiers, the two amplifiers go to a crossover, that crossover goes to a mixer and that mixer goes to a laptop/audio source, would I be all set? Is there a need or an advantage in having a third amplifier so that the subs, mids and high top all go to different amps & then to a crossover, or can I run it like this?
I am now looking for decent and not too expensive 3-way crossovers, where I would connect all of the speakers.
Many thanks in advance!
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Ubersafka
You are confusing things ....Signal route is not the way as You describe, but like this:
LAPTOP / CD / MP3 -> Mixer / Effects Gear -> Active Crossover -> Amps -> Passive Crossover (When not Active used or full range speakers) -> Speaker drivers
You always need crossovers ACTIVE BEFORE or INSIDE (DSP) AMPS or PASSIVE INSIDE Cabinets.
You problem here is the Tweeter / Compression driver that must be protected by the crossover or it blows. Your Driver is 60W ....
I would cross it at least at 2500Hz. You would be better suited with 1.5 " compression drivers, unless you don't play loud.
I would make 2 subs (FANE 18 ") and 2 Tops (MID+TREBLE)
You can use the Behringer inuke DSP to cut at 150 or 200 Hz for the 18 " Subs and feed the line out to the T 4-700 For MID & Treble, but as this one doesn't have a crossover you must use an active one inside the top cab or, biamp and use another crossover before this amp Crossed say at 200Hz for mids and 2500Hz for the Compression drivers
Or just use the T-4700 with 2 subs + 2 Tops with an active crossover before.
I own one T 4-700 and works well with 500-600w speakers.
I use Beyma FD250 passive crossovers inside my cabinets. They are rated for 600W and have attenuation jumpers but I use them with Yamaha 700 W amps and 1000W drivers.
Tip: If You use the T 4-700 Use channel 1&3 (Sub + Top) for Left and channel and 2&4 (Sub + Top) for the Right channel in order to balance heat, since Chan 1&2 amps are on one side and channel 3&4 amps are on the other side of The amp Cabinet.
You are confusing things ....Signal route is not the way as You describe, but like this:
LAPTOP / CD / MP3 -> Mixer / Effects Gear -> Active Crossover -> Amps -> Passive Crossover (When not Active used or full range speakers) -> Speaker drivers
You always need crossovers ACTIVE BEFORE or INSIDE (DSP) AMPS or PASSIVE INSIDE Cabinets.
You problem here is the Tweeter / Compression driver that must be protected by the crossover or it blows. Your Driver is 60W ....
I would cross it at least at 2500Hz. You would be better suited with 1.5 " compression drivers, unless you don't play loud.
I would make 2 subs (FANE 18 ") and 2 Tops (MID+TREBLE)
You can use the Behringer inuke DSP to cut at 150 or 200 Hz for the 18 " Subs and feed the line out to the T 4-700 For MID & Treble, but as this one doesn't have a crossover you must use an active one inside the top cab or, biamp and use another crossover before this amp Crossed say at 200Hz for mids and 2500Hz for the Compression drivers
Or just use the T-4700 with 2 subs + 2 Tops with an active crossover before.
I own one T 4-700 and works well with 500-600w speakers.
I use Beyma FD250 passive crossovers inside my cabinets. They are rated for 600W and have attenuation jumpers but I use them with Yamaha 700 W amps and 1000W drivers.
Tip: If You use the T 4-700 Use channel 1&3 (Sub + Top) for Left and channel and 2&4 (Sub + Top) for the Right channel in order to balance heat, since Chan 1&2 amps are on one side and channel 3&4 amps are on the other side of The amp Cabinet.
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Thanks for the reply, I see then, crossover before amp. I will also build seperate cabinets for all of the speakers.
All the comperssion drivers thomann has pretty much seem to be between 60-90W. Highest 1.5" driver is 105W, thats this one PD.CD1.53. With suggested Xover 1600 Hz, would something similar to this work then?
Isnt the difference between 105W and 60W something like a little under 3db? Will it be that much quieter because 1.5-2khz would be too low of a frequency for that BC driver?
The mids and subs have been ordered so it is going to be a sub+mid+compression driver setup, and I was actually thinking of your said setup but then I changed my mind. I also dont get why I would want my subs to go to 200hz though, would that only be the case if I was using subs along with two "full rangers", so that the full rangers would not have to go that low?
All the comperssion drivers thomann has pretty much seem to be between 60-90W. Highest 1.5" driver is 105W, thats this one PD.CD1.53. With suggested Xover 1600 Hz, would something similar to this work then?
Isnt the difference between 105W and 60W something like a little under 3db? Will it be that much quieter because 1.5-2khz would be too low of a frequency for that BC driver?
The mids and subs have been ordered so it is going to be a sub+mid+compression driver setup, and I was actually thinking of your said setup but then I changed my mind. I also dont get why I would want my subs to go to 200hz though, would that only be the case if I was using subs along with two "full rangers", so that the full rangers would not have to go that low?
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I will be getting two 1.4" BMS 4554 high tops after all! They'll be in the same cabinet, unlike mids/subs. Should be just fine at 1.6, some are running it on even lower freq. Thats where the horn matters though.
BMS 4554 1.4" High Frequency Compression Driver 80w AES 8Ohm 93.65 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
If its a single stack, high tops being at around 210CM, which dispersion horn will suit me better? Both 80 x 50 and 60 x 40 dispersion rate horns seems to be common. It would most likely be one of these;
P-Audio PH-85 1.4" Horn Flare 80 x 50 Dispersion from P-Audio 19.66 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
P-Audio :: P-Audio PH-305 23.12 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
I also realize that my threads here seem to end up to be about a lot more than the title suggests, not sure if I can edit it anymore
BMS 4554 1.4" High Frequency Compression Driver 80w AES 8Ohm 93.65 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
If its a single stack, high tops being at around 210CM, which dispersion horn will suit me better? Both 80 x 50 and 60 x 40 dispersion rate horns seems to be common. It would most likely be one of these;
P-Audio PH-85 1.4" Horn Flare 80 x 50 Dispersion from P-Audio 19.66 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
P-Audio :: P-Audio PH-305 23.12 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
I also realize that my threads here seem to end up to be about a lot more than the title suggests, not sure if I can edit it anymore
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I am also looking at these 2" drivers, but they'd be the only 2" drivers I could afford;
P-Audio BMD750
P-Audio BMD750 (BM-D750) 2" Compression Driver 100W 8 Ohms 86.94 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
P-Audio BMD750
P-Audio BMD750 (BM-D750) 2" Compression Driver 100W 8 Ohms 86.94 IN STOCK (24 Apr 2017)
Ubersafka
This answers some questions. Look at the graph on figure 1
Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?
The whole site articles worth reading.
I use Selenium D220Ti and Eighteensound ND190 with 15" 500W Woofers and they work well.
Take a look at some commercial speakers and you'll find that usually above 300-400W they use 1.5" compression drivers.
You will be using Mids so you must cross tweeters high say 3000 or more Hz or there will we overlapping frequencies.
If you make two subs and two tops you can use the tops alone for some small parties or ambient sound. It will be a full range speaker. When you need the bass for a rave you just add the bass cabs. It's more versatile.
As I told you before not always you need a crossover before the amps if the speakers have them inbuilt like ordinary full range cabinets. It depends on the setup...
If you build the speaker cabinets yourself are you sure you are the only person who will be making the connections. ... say someone plugs an LF amp to a Compression driver speaker... Things happen you know...
For safety I would add a 20 or 25 uF Motor capacitor (Yes that large round 220V one) in series with the compression driver to protect it from DC or loud pops and thums, unless there is a passive crossover before in the cabinet.
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This answers some questions. Look at the graph on figure 1
Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?
The whole site articles worth reading.
I use Selenium D220Ti and Eighteensound ND190 with 15" 500W Woofers and they work well.
Take a look at some commercial speakers and you'll find that usually above 300-400W they use 1.5" compression drivers.
You will be using Mids so you must cross tweeters high say 3000 or more Hz or there will we overlapping frequencies.
If you make two subs and two tops you can use the tops alone for some small parties or ambient sound. It will be a full range speaker. When you need the bass for a rave you just add the bass cabs. It's more versatile.
As I told you before not always you need a crossover before the amps if the speakers have them inbuilt like ordinary full range cabinets. It depends on the setup...
If you build the speaker cabinets yourself are you sure you are the only person who will be making the connections. ... say someone plugs an LF amp to a Compression driver speaker... Things happen you know...
For safety I would add a 20 or 25 uF Motor capacitor (Yes that large round 220V one) in series with the compression driver to protect it from DC or loud pops and thums, unless there is a passive crossover before in the cabinet.
[FONT=ArialMT,Bold][FONT=ArialMT,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]
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Aside from the inbuilt crossover in iNuke 6000DSP, I would be getting another crossover. Something similar to this for example, https://www.thomann.de/fi/the_tracks_ds_24.htm . Just with more inputs. Its just that the behringer has the best power/money-ratio to run subs that I have found. I've been trying to find used amps as well but with no luck so far.
So why must I worry about overlapping when I will be using a crossover for mids and high top aswell? Isnt it ideal that the two drivers I plan to crossover, overlap each other a bit for a smoother "transfer"?
But I did read your link, so to avoid clipping the compression driver I need to limit it and hope nobody comes touching my knob during a session (heh) or to get an amplifier that doesnt give as much power.
I will be the only one operating this soundsystem, so I dont think somebody would just come up to my setup and start changing the amplifiers. If somebody is blowing up the drivers that will be me. Thanks for your reply again, although I think it just confused me more 😀
So why must I worry about overlapping when I will be using a crossover for mids and high top aswell? Isnt it ideal that the two drivers I plan to crossover, overlap each other a bit for a smoother "transfer"?
But I did read your link, so to avoid clipping the compression driver I need to limit it and hope nobody comes touching my knob during a session (heh) or to get an amplifier that doesnt give as much power.
I will be the only one operating this soundsystem, so I dont think somebody would just come up to my setup and start changing the amplifiers. If somebody is blowing up the drivers that will be me. Thanks for your reply again, although I think it just confused me more 😀
Ubersafka
Say You use the Inuke for the Subs.. It has a built-in crossover / filter, but no Line outs. You can't take the highpass out of it to connect to your tops. You need another crossover between your mixing desk and the T 4-700 for mids and highs. The Tracks DS-24 will do it fine.
But I would leave the capacitor on the tweeter cabinet for DC protection just in case. There are some other types of protection like lamps / poly-switches but the problem is calculating them.
For 8 Ohm a 15uF capacitor has a "gross crossover frequency" of 1325 Hz. I'm sure you will be crossing higher so it shouldn't influence the crossover frequency of the active crossover. http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=1.
Aso bear in mind that active crossovers have usually 24dB attenuation. Passive 12 or 18 dB. There is no inductor so it isn't a reliable crossover. It just helps protection. I suggested a motor capacitor because they are designed for AC and robust. Smaller polarized electrolytics can't be used here unless you wire two in anti-polarization (+ to + or - to -) with half the capacitance.
Say You use the Inuke for the Subs.. It has a built-in crossover / filter, but no Line outs. You can't take the highpass out of it to connect to your tops. You need another crossover between your mixing desk and the T 4-700 for mids and highs. The Tracks DS-24 will do it fine.
But I would leave the capacitor on the tweeter cabinet for DC protection just in case. There are some other types of protection like lamps / poly-switches but the problem is calculating them.
For 8 Ohm a 15uF capacitor has a "gross crossover frequency" of 1325 Hz. I'm sure you will be crossing higher so it shouldn't influence the crossover frequency of the active crossover. http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=1.
Aso bear in mind that active crossovers have usually 24dB attenuation. Passive 12 or 18 dB. There is no inductor so it isn't a reliable crossover. It just helps protection. I suggested a motor capacitor because they are designed for AC and robust. Smaller polarized electrolytics can't be used here unless you wire two in anti-polarization (+ to + or - to -) with half the capacitance.
I see, I think you thought I wasnt going to get an external crossover. Thanks again for the 78rd time for your efforts to enlighten me
I found the first used amplifier with enough watts and the price close enough to my budget that I could consider it.
Crown XLS5000 for 450 euros, but the owner is also selling a crossover (dB Technologies ASX 18) & all the cables required along with a stand for it for 550 euros.
It weights a decent 33kg and gives 5000W @ 4 Ohms bridged. It would all cost me 180€ more than a warranted brand new Behringer , which weights 5kg and gives 3 000W.
Crown; Crown XLS5000D - XLS Series Stereo Power Amplifier
Crossover; https://f-pro.fi/shop/fi/product/647
Behringer; https://www.thomann.de/fi/behringer_inuke_nu6000dsp.htm?ref=search_rslt_inuke_259411_2
Would it make a real impact to the sound of my subwoofers compared to how the behringer would sound? I know the behringer is a great money/power ratio budget amp and comes with a built in crossover. As it could make a difference, im not building scoops but more compact cabinets for the subs, I havent posted them to this thread so here they are;
I found the first used amplifier with enough watts and the price close enough to my budget that I could consider it.
Crown XLS5000 for 450 euros, but the owner is also selling a crossover (dB Technologies ASX 18) & all the cables required along with a stand for it for 550 euros.
It weights a decent 33kg and gives 5000W @ 4 Ohms bridged. It would all cost me 180€ more than a warranted brand new Behringer , which weights 5kg and gives 3 000W.
Crown; Crown XLS5000D - XLS Series Stereo Power Amplifier
Crossover; https://f-pro.fi/shop/fi/product/647
Behringer; https://www.thomann.de/fi/behringer_inuke_nu6000dsp.htm?ref=search_rslt_inuke_259411_2
Would it make a real impact to the sound of my subwoofers compared to how the behringer would sound? I know the behringer is a great money/power ratio budget amp and comes with a built in crossover. As it could make a difference, im not building scoops but more compact cabinets for the subs, I havent posted them to this thread so here they are;
Dont know their difference but I posted wrong link, its for XLS5000D while the one I could buy is XLS5000. Here is the correct link;
Crown XLS 5000 Power Amplifier | Musician's Friend
Crown XLS 5000 Power Amplifier | Musician's Friend
5000W oh dear you are going to fry your speakers if You play loud, and You will be playing loud for sure with 300 people around You... For the enclosure .. there is many software here in the forum to simulate. Take a look at the sizes of commercial ones. I'm afraid I've never understood what is "good bass" or those simulated software curves .. I mean is it 60Hz, 80 or 100Hz ? I just play and adjust controls to what suits to my ear.
The amp & crossover price is a bargain. Be sure to test the amp for DC on the outputs before connecting the speakers.
I never assumed You won't be using an external crossover. I just wanted to emphasize that a crossover must always be there.
The amp & crossover price is a bargain. Be sure to test the amp for DC on the outputs before connecting the speakers.
I never assumed You won't be using an external crossover. I just wanted to emphasize that a crossover must always be there.
I dont plan on frying em! The Colossus has a continuous power of 1000W, peak power of 4000W and im not going to run them in 4 ohm since i will have the option to run them in 8 ohms. And of course it doesnt really give 5000W to 30-80hz, as it has been measured at 1khz. Im very much set on the cabinet design and ive started building them already
How much x max in that woofer? It takes over 10mm x max and 20mm x mech to be safe bridging amps in that power level.
Really? It has an xmax of 7.5mm, but I dont even have to bridge the drivers as it has two channels that I can use at 8ohms instead of bridging them into 4 ohm. If I were to bridge the drivers, would it not be safe even if I limit the gains?
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Oh and I will not be buying that crossover. Im buying the amplifier along with a stand that has room for 4 amplifiers for 450. I will be buying one 3 way crossover later so that all the speakers go to a single crossover, instead of several.
Here are a few 3-way stereo crossovers that Ive found so far;
119€, Behringer CX3400; https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_cx3400_super_x_pro.htm
211€, DBX 234 Xs; https://www.thomann.de/fi/dbx_234_xs.htm
260€, Carvin XC3000; Carvin XC3000 3-way stereo crossover - Vantaan Musiikki
LETS TALK ABOUT SLOPES
So far, I havent been able to find a 3-way stereo crossover that would offer anything else than a 24db/octave filters at least in the under 300€ price-range. I have seen several stereo / 2 way stereo crossovers that let you choose from 6/12/18/24. Should I aim for getting one where I can choose it ? Since I havent found any like that, im assuming they are all in the price range I probably cant afford. Are any of you using 24db, is the switch very "rough"? I have to admit, I know very little about crossovers.
119€, Behringer CX3400; https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_cx3400_super_x_pro.htm
211€, DBX 234 Xs; https://www.thomann.de/fi/dbx_234_xs.htm
260€, Carvin XC3000; Carvin XC3000 3-way stereo crossover - Vantaan Musiikki
LETS TALK ABOUT SLOPES
So far, I havent been able to find a 3-way stereo crossover that would offer anything else than a 24db/octave filters at least in the under 300€ price-range. I have seen several stereo / 2 way stereo crossovers that let you choose from 6/12/18/24. Should I aim for getting one where I can choose it ? Since I havent found any like that, im assuming they are all in the price range I probably cant afford. Are any of you using 24db, is the switch very "rough"? I have to admit, I know very little about crossovers.
NO. 4th order(24dB/oct) is what you want for PA applications. Can you afford a Behringer DCX2496? This unit is far superior to everything you listed above.
I think I could, I will read more about it but if it is as good as a thread I just glanced at claim it is, i'll buy it. Then im basically all set aside from a mixer. Thanks for your help!
The DCX2496 is actually a very good value considering how much equipment it replaces. You really can't get away much cheaper if you need crossover, EQ and limiting.
Seems to be, that thread about it here is over 400 posts long. Asked my friend too and he said he & pretty much everyone else uses that, as its great for the price
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