I remember a few years back there was a guy here (big un) who had the audio nirvana 15" full range speakers and thought really highly of them - I'm wondering if they are still in use, and if so, are they still as good? Or has time revealed any short commings...?
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The speaker is still in use and is still my main speaker for listening in my living room. I haven't managed to better it yet but it's been quite a few years and there are now more choices of drivers that could be explored. However, I think it's a testament to the sound of this driver that it can bring satisfaction for many years - I've not had much of an urge to upgrade whereas electronics is something I keep playing with !
I would say the main shortcoming is on-axis treble - where it can be a bit ragged at the top-end. But you have to sit facing down the barrel of it to hear this and a few degrees off-axis all is good. Treble dispersion with the whizzer and phase plug seems to work well - I get good treble all over my listening space.
I am using it in an open backed box and I get very deep bass but it can't be flat, that's just not possible with this arrangement so I'm likely getting a bit of a boost around 200Hz. My personal experience with open back speakers is that the bass is quite different from the commercial closed box speakers I used in my home theatre, it's a bit more relaxed and in the case of the AN15 it digs deep.
There are no other full range drivers that I'm aware of that I'd consider using by themselves like this one; it would likely have to be a two-way (e.g. FAST) before I could better the sound I have today.
I would say the main shortcoming is on-axis treble - where it can be a bit ragged at the top-end. But you have to sit facing down the barrel of it to hear this and a few degrees off-axis all is good. Treble dispersion with the whizzer and phase plug seems to work well - I get good treble all over my listening space.
I am using it in an open backed box and I get very deep bass but it can't be flat, that's just not possible with this arrangement so I'm likely getting a bit of a boost around 200Hz. My personal experience with open back speakers is that the bass is quite different from the commercial closed box speakers I used in my home theatre, it's a bit more relaxed and in the case of the AN15 it digs deep.
There are no other full range drivers that I'm aware of that I'd consider using by themselves like this one; it would likely have to be a two-way (e.g. FAST) before I could better the sound I have today.
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it might be useful to have measured specs - my stamped frame Super10 had fs and qts higher than spec out of the box and never lowered. My stamped frame Super8 had fs close to spec originally but have stiffened over time raising fs by 1/2 octave - they're still useful of course as fs in the 60Hz range is ok for an 8" fullrange.
FWIW Super15 ferrite would probably work in the Gauss 5181 K18 Karlson cabinet (huge at 24" wide by 20" deep x 36" tall) 1mm linear xmax doesn't go far.
FWIW Super15 ferrite would probably work in the Gauss 5181 K18 Karlson cabinet (huge at 24" wide by 20" deep x 36" tall) 1mm linear xmax doesn't go far.
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Correction: I realized tonight that it's no longer open back box, I put a back on it, with holes in it rather to the design parameters suggested by David Hicks who sells these drivers. I'm not sure it sounds much different than with an open back to be honest, but it's a bit neater of course.
I can't measure the specs. of the driver - I don't think there's any issue with the driver that measurements would reveal.
I can't measure the specs. of the driver - I don't think there's any issue with the driver that measurements would reveal.
I was listening to a pair of these a few days back. Not bad at all. While I could wish for Olson's unit to be put back in production (don't ask about the cost 😉 ), these seem to be decent if you want a big FR driver.
Thanks, for the response, I am toying with idea of building a speaker using the 15" AN. David speaks highly of the classic one he has - the one wth no whizzer. He's says there is no need for a tweeter, but says the off axis dispersion suffers - I don't care, because I don't listen to music moving around and generally just sit in the sweet spot. I also have a pair of Cornscalas, and nothing beats the effortless dynamics of a 15 incher. I built the mark audio pencil with the 12p speaker, which plays really loud for the size, but you can sense that it is a small speaker. I supplement it with a sub, which deffinatley helps, but like they say size matters...
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I built the MA10.3 Pecils and so I can understand what you are saying - I prefer the AN15. And I'll be very interested to hear about your impressions of the new Classic if you decide to go that route. Do stick with the 15" as I gather from reading around that it betters the smaller drivers, the larger driver is really something special.
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I have a pair of the 12 inch classic drivers, as I was attracted by the lack of whizzer cone, myself. I had attributed the failings in sound I had heard from full range loudspeakers in the past to the whizzer cone, and all its theoretical disadvantages.
I have not achieved acceptable sound with the AN Classic 12s, unfortunately. The bass was beautiful, but the rest of the presentation is a mess. I found myself playing with notch filters, Zobels (which of course do not work with the lack of a series crossover to play against), and every time I attempted to do anything to clean them up, the sound suffered greatly. The top end on axis is searingly bright, and the midrange response peaks had me running screaming from the room.
After playing with different boxes, toying with the idea of large baffles to pick up the huge dip in the lower mids, and even thinking about going omnidirectional with them, I gave up on full range speakers as being hopelessly flawed. The AN system, with the 7 cubic foot cabinets sat unused for a few months, taking up space, as I no longer wished to listen to stereo at all.
I was lent a pair of the entry level Voxativ 1.6 drivers someone had dropped into a Madisound BLH cabinet, and finally heard the sound had been described to me by all the full range lovers out there. The bass of the AN was certainly more extended, but everything else was ruined by the midrange presentation. Of course, the Voxativ cost $2K a pair, but they are well worth it. Even in a compromised box, they are outstanding.
Now, to finish my Ampeggio Due clone boxes…
I have not achieved acceptable sound with the AN Classic 12s, unfortunately. The bass was beautiful, but the rest of the presentation is a mess. I found myself playing with notch filters, Zobels (which of course do not work with the lack of a series crossover to play against), and every time I attempted to do anything to clean them up, the sound suffered greatly. The top end on axis is searingly bright, and the midrange response peaks had me running screaming from the room.
After playing with different boxes, toying with the idea of large baffles to pick up the huge dip in the lower mids, and even thinking about going omnidirectional with them, I gave up on full range speakers as being hopelessly flawed. The AN system, with the 7 cubic foot cabinets sat unused for a few months, taking up space, as I no longer wished to listen to stereo at all.
I was lent a pair of the entry level Voxativ 1.6 drivers someone had dropped into a Madisound BLH cabinet, and finally heard the sound had been described to me by all the full range lovers out there. The bass of the AN was certainly more extended, but everything else was ruined by the midrange presentation. Of course, the Voxativ cost $2K a pair, but they are well worth it. Even in a compromised box, they are outstanding.
Now, to finish my Ampeggio Due clone boxes…
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I'm not sure why AN decided to offer the 'Classic' as I understand large cones need a whizzer (let's be honest and call it a mechanical cross-over) for proper dispersion along with a phase plug. To me it seems AN was trying to reduce costs. The AN15 is where the action is, in my opinion, anything smaller is competing with other brands but the 15" is special. Bud Purvine had an AN15 and had high praise for it - described the whizzer as one of the best implementations he's ever seen (but only on the 15" I gather).
Full range single driver is really tough. The sweet-spot seems to be the smaller to medium sized cones which need some clever/large boxes or a supporting woofer to provide satisfying bass. Larger cones struggle to finesse the treble, the AN15 being the only one I've heard that does a reasonable job - I'd love to hear a Voxativ. The larger cones do at least allow one to explore open-back boxes and still have enough bass.
Full range single driver is really tough. The sweet-spot seems to be the smaller to medium sized cones which need some clever/large boxes or a supporting woofer to provide satisfying bass. Larger cones struggle to finesse the treble, the AN15 being the only one I've heard that does a reasonable job - I'd love to hear a Voxativ. The larger cones do at least allow one to explore open-back boxes and still have enough bass.
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I’m more of a lurker than a poster (this is only my second post), but I feel compelled to respond to your comments about the AN 12” Classic Ferrites lest those remarks might turn a prospective user away.
Your impressions seem to be exactly the opposite of most others who have AN drivers including myself. If there is any weakness with these drivers it’s the bass response, which is typical of every full range. That’s exactly why some people are upgrading to a FAST.
But more importantly, the mid range and up is simply outstanding. It’s hard to comprehend your reference to a mess when quite the opposite is what just about every comment posted says on AN drivers.
I listen to classical music and operas, and even though some people have predicted that FRs are not suited to complex music, I find these ANs to be wonderful. The detail, smoothness, lack of distortion, and listening ability are terrific. I can listen to these speakers for hours without any form of fatigue.
I now am hearing the music in an entirely different way from CDs that I have played many times over the years. It’s like I’m hearing it properly for the first time. It’s rich, full, relaxed, and enjoyable. These speakers really produce music, not just sound waves.
Are they perfect? No. Your comment about some brightness has a basis. There is some brightness, but I don’t find it overly objectionable and it you take away too much of it you’ll lose the whole point of these drivers. Instead you’ll end up with a dull, unenjoyable, mediocre speaker. Much like a lot of the commercial products that cost a lot more money.
The other somewhat downside to the Classics is weaker off-axis response compare to the Super series with whizzers. However, the outstanding detail and lack of distortion in the Classic is more than worth it for me personally.
Finally, I’m somewhat confused about your earlier post just a few months ago on May 10th where you seemed to really like the ANs.
I have the old stamped frame Super10 - their treble is somewhat rough, and spatially disconnected - but IIRC, pretty good bass in my Karlsonator 12 - the treble roughness of course remained. How does your Classic 12 sound say on Mario Del Monaco? Ivan Koslovsky? - basses like Gottob Frick? - a harmonically rich baritone like Pavel Lisitsian ? (if you're not familiar with Lisitsian, then search on Youtube - there may be a video collection - he was one of the greatest) lieder with piano ? btw, F. Reeder has (expertly) transferred and uploaded a lot of older public domain classical music which is free to keep and enjoy. Some 78's had very good sound - even some acoustics.
L. Cao's little 6.5" F6 is a smooth and lively whizzerless fullrange with on-axis extension to at least 17KHz.
I'll probably remount my AN10s as they better vocally than my Beta10cx/ASD1001 - I've got way too many speakers - maybe a ton or more too much.
L. Cao's little 6.5" F6 is a smooth and lively whizzerless fullrange with on-axis extension to at least 17KHz.
I'll probably remount my AN10s as they better vocally than my Beta10cx/ASD1001 - I've got way too many speakers - maybe a ton or more too much.
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I don't really have any of the 'old timers' that you mentioned in my opera collection. My wife and I only started getting into opera about 15 years ago (wish we had done it a lot sooner now that I have learned to really appreciate it) and most of my collection with male singers consists of Carreras, Domingo, and Pavarotti. Plenty CDs of them.
I do have one CD with Franz Volker, Friedrich Schorr, Lauritz Melchior, Max Lorenz, Heinrich Schlusnus, Helge Roswaeange, and Gerhard Husch. They all sound good on these speakers, but are really limited by the audio quality of the original recordings that were made in the 1920s and 30s.
Thanks for the tip about the F. Reeder transfers and availability. I'll check it out.
BTW, my drivers are AN Classic 10s, not 12s, although I don't expect there to be too much difference other than in the bass extension.
I do have one CD with Franz Volker, Friedrich Schorr, Lauritz Melchior, Max Lorenz, Heinrich Schlusnus, Helge Roswaeange, and Gerhard Husch. They all sound good on these speakers, but are really limited by the audio quality of the original recordings that were made in the 1920s and 30s.
Thanks for the tip about the F. Reeder transfers and availability. I'll check it out.
BTW, my drivers are AN Classic 10s, not 12s, although I don't expect there to be too much difference other than in the bass extension.
I WAS pretty happy with tem at first- when the thought that I might experience better sound after break in, or find an alternative enclosure that might smooth out some of the rough spots I was experiencing.
The biggest thing that happened to change my mind was gong through my music collection, and playing some of my favorite pieces of music- a typical thing for me to do, when I'm exploring the limits of a given system, and really evaluating based upon my expectations for long term enjoyment. It was then that some really ugly response anomalies began to show themselves. It has always been my opinion that a system should never limit one to a particular type of music, that is to say, even poorly recorded music should still be enjoyable, flaws and all.
The biggest thing that happened to change my mind was gong through my music collection, and playing some of my favorite pieces of music- a typical thing for me to do, when I'm exploring the limits of a given system, and really evaluating based upon my expectations for long term enjoyment. It was then that some really ugly response anomalies began to show themselves. It has always been my opinion that a system should never limit one to a particular type of music, that is to say, even poorly recorded music should still be enjoyable, flaws and all.
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Sorry to say, but you guys should try the AN Super 15" - it's a compromise still, like all speakers, but there's no music I can't play on it.
hi classicalfan - those were great German singers - - you might find better sound quality from private collectors on YouTube and forums as a lot of commercial releases of 78's use what I consider, excessively aggressive high frequency filtering.
here's a goldie oldie from 1905 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcHVrSD39g
btw - with old recordings and lots of classic rock, I would say adding an aural-exciter such as the Apex units, would add brilliance and "life" - it will do more good than $10K worth of fancy gear in some cases - I have one in series with a 3BX - can make a world of difference - and I come from a "purist" (single ended tube, horn speaker, planar) perspective ;^)
here's a goldie oldie from 1905 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcHVrSD39g
btw - with old recordings and lots of classic rock, I would say adding an aural-exciter such as the Apex units, would add brilliance and "life" - it will do more good than $10K worth of fancy gear in some cases - I have one in series with a 3BX - can make a world of difference - and I come from a "purist" (single ended tube, horn speaker, planar) perspective ;^)
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Bingo! You just hit the nail right on the head.
FR drivers, and particularly the ANs, are extremely accurate and detailed. If you have a great recording it will sound great. Likewise, if you have a lousy recording it will sound lousy. All the flaws will show up and sound even worse than with most other speakers. So those recordings probably won't be very enjoyable.
And that may be why you haven't been happy with any FRs including the Fostex drivers you talked about earlier.
For me personally I'm willing to forgo some of my poor recordings (that I didn't realize were that bad before) in order to achieve 'Nirvana' with others that are well recorded.
When I listen to the Second Movement of Brahms's Violin Concerto by someone great like Itzhak Perlman I want to be moved to tears on the sheer beauty of the moment. That's my personal goal, although not necessarily everyone else's.
Perhaps FRs are not right for you.
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I contacted David on this one. He told me that the Alnico made a 5% difference so I didn't bother. For some people, that 5% is worth it.
I agree with much of what you posted but I would add that to my ears there have been several full range drivers I've owned which sounded plain horrible in the treble - no recording could be enjoyed on some of them. The Fostex 127E was glorious and detailed when I first got it, my first full-range driver and first DIY project ever and it was quite exciting. After awhile it got to be more and more irritating as the honeymoon wore off I started to get more realistic about what I was hearing. I tried cone treatments (planet-10 Tri-foil) and in-line filter. Some time later I simply couldn't live with it - it had me reaching for the off switch with the urgency of a man who had stepped on a nail.
But that is not the case with some full range drivers, which simply aren't irritating even on less than perfect recordings.
Great to my ears: AN15, Mark Audio 10.3
Good to my ears: Fountek FR88
Bad to my ears: Mark Audio CHN-70
Screaming bad to my ears: Fostex FE127E
Jury still out for long term use is the CSS EL-70 as I haven't been using them enough to form an opinion of late.
fyi - my PMC floor-standers are two-ways, they irritated me when used with a Bryston amplifier and really long fat speaker cables but sound just fine with my home theatre amplifier (TM6 amplifier in the solid state forum)
Bigun, I know what you mean about the Fostex 127e. It was the local favorite for a while but in reality, it's very amp sensitive (NO solid state for this driver, IMO) and after you are intimate with it you hear and become annoyed by it's garbled and excitable charactar.
It's like dating a lovely woman with really hairy legs... Or something like that.
I'd love to hear the 15" fullranger. I bet it's great and has qualities NO other drivers posses. Maybe like a woman with a bit of peach fuzz on her butt? Having 15" Alphas in H-frames I understand the lure of large drivers.
It's like dating a lovely woman with really hairy legs... Or something like that.
I'd love to hear the 15" fullranger. I bet it's great and has qualities NO other drivers posses. Maybe like a woman with a bit of peach fuzz on her butt? Having 15" Alphas in H-frames I understand the lure of large drivers.
OK Godzilla for the "peach fuzz" experience I would humbly suggest, keep your H Frames and high pass over to a big AN with the wizzer cone (can't really speak to Alnico vs Ferrite vs Neo). I have the 12" ferrite versions in a cobbled up a boffle type enclosure high passed at 70hz. If you want "peach fuzz with goose bumps" add a super tweeter. Still amazes me how a super tweet going out past the normal range of hearing can make everything seem so much more REAL