Hi fellows,
currently evaluating the purchase of a pair of AN super 12 cast frame for an open baffle.
I'm sure they will be superior in terms of midrange clarity and naturaless, but having direct experience with the little fostex FF85WK, that albeit is considered a big tweeter by many, to me it lacks the ultimate transparency and sense of air of a good tweeter, so I have some doubts about how such a big speaker could manage treble better than a 3" fostex
David at CommonsenseAudio ensure me that I'm not going to miss a tweeter with those drivers, but I'm little concerned anyway.
Some of you have made comparison between this driver and a classic two way speaker, related of top treble extension and definition?
currently evaluating the purchase of a pair of AN super 12 cast frame for an open baffle.
I'm sure they will be superior in terms of midrange clarity and naturaless, but having direct experience with the little fostex FF85WK, that albeit is considered a big tweeter by many, to me it lacks the ultimate transparency and sense of air of a good tweeter, so I have some doubts about how such a big speaker could manage treble better than a 3" fostex
David at CommonsenseAudio ensure me that I'm not going to miss a tweeter with those drivers, but I'm little concerned anyway.
Some of you have made comparison between this driver and a classic two way speaker, related of top treble extension and definition?
None of the audio nirvana models will come close to fooling you that there's a tweeter. They're all very peaked and have a certain character that sets them apart from a neutral sound. Whether you will like them or not depends on the type of music you listen to.
you could see some measurement and description at Rutcho's page.
have you tried a Markaudio? Not really for OB but very detailed and neutral.
are you going to add a helping woofer?
As Gafhenderson said, if you felt lacking with the Fostex, it's very hard you'll be happy with the AN.
have you tried a Markaudio? Not really for OB but very detailed and neutral.
are you going to add a helping woofer?
As Gafhenderson said, if you felt lacking with the Fostex, it's very hard you'll be happy with the AN.
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Thank you guys for all your prompt answers, you confirm my suspects and probably saved me from a (costly) delusion
I have built an OB with fostex FF85WK + eminence alpha 8, and while this configuration is very nice, full rich and realistic bass, clear detailed and natural midrange, sharp soundstage, compared to my 2.5 way towers (2 way plus a second woofer) they are not in the same league concerning treble
The tower, with its seas tweeter, exhibit more transparent and airy treble and a soundstage more developed in depth, more pinpoint and 3D
And also I had to tweak with a compensation network to tame the gorgeous fostex midrange, so the same could have been true for the AN I guess
I have built an OB with fostex FF85WK + eminence alpha 8, and while this configuration is very nice, full rich and realistic bass, clear detailed and natural midrange, sharp soundstage, compared to my 2.5 way towers (2 way plus a second woofer) they are not in the same league concerning treble
The tower, with its seas tweeter, exhibit more transparent and airy treble and a soundstage more developed in depth, more pinpoint and 3D
And also I had to tweak with a compensation network to tame the gorgeous fostex midrange, so the same could have been true for the AN I guess
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Maybe you should look at the Hammer Dynamics approach - you get to use a tweeter and a woofer ?
Hammer Dynamics Super 12 Loudspeaker Kit
Hammer Dynamics Super 12 Loudspeaker Kit
I have an AN Super 12 as well. I have used it both sealed (2 cubic ft) and in an open baffle configuration. What it does it does wonderfully especially after about 200 hrs break in. I found the best results with open baffle and crossing it over to a subwoofer. I never have added a tweeter but if I were to do so I would certainly go for one that crosses up very high and reaches into super tweeter territory. Something like a Beston ribbon which gets out to 40,000 Hz and isn't terribly expensive. I also have some other fine speakers Quad 63's, Genesis Genre 1's and 2's, Ohm Walsh, and am an avid attendee at Burning Amp and the usual suspects for audio shows. I don't know what you are expecting and maybe for your use something else might be the ticket but the AN 12's are capable of delivering something very special in the 70 - 12,000 range.
Thanks for your post Octavia
I have just added a silk dome 1" tweeter cut at 10Khz aside the fostex FF85WK, and treble have been restored in full glory, so I'm not sure anymore if my next OB project will be another full range, I'm leaning toward a classic two way plus a subwoofer.
Something like a 1" dome tweeter+5" mid + 12-15" sub (or double 12")
I have just added a silk dome 1" tweeter cut at 10Khz aside the fostex FF85WK, and treble have been restored in full glory, so I'm not sure anymore if my next OB project will be another full range, I'm leaning toward a classic two way plus a subwoofer.
Something like a 1" dome tweeter+5" mid + 12-15" sub (or double 12")
It's interesting to note how one's appreciation of sound and sound systems evolves. I was at the Cal Audio Show in Burlingame earlier this summer and as usual full of expectations for hearing systems I will never own (even if I do pick the winning lottery numbers one day). One this is for sure, I like and appreciate when a system can convince me a life size person is standing at the end of the room singing. The Fairfield Four gospel quartet "Standing In the Safety Zone" is a great CD to test for that. Along with that one I usually tote around a live jazz CD featuring a Hammond B3 organ. And a beautiful piano and girl singer rendition of "Who Knows Where The Time Goes" that was recorded at a dinner club in NYC I visited and heard live (clinking table ware and all in the background sounds). If any systems gets those 3 right then I know I could be happy with it. Not to take anything away from anyone but the percentages that do get it right are in the single digits (my opinion and my limited experience of course). Anyway I'm rambling on but suffice it to say I think a full ranger or wide ranger coupled to good subs and a super tweeter is one of the better ways to get it right. And going Open Baffle (or even BOFFLE) is a nice way to get around all the downward dynamic range masking that cabinet resonances create.
Yes, it was what I thought when I decided to experiment with full range.
I've choosen the little fostex because it was supposed to be a decent tweeter also, didn't mind about bass, they are supplied in quantity and quality by the alpha 8.
But as I stated before, compared to my towers they lack something.
I'm pretty sure it's just me, or more exactly my ears, that need extra shacking to feel treble in the right way.
Anyway the game is not over, still considering many alternatives; for sure the audio nirvana can't play alone, I'm sure it needs to be complemented in both bass and treble, as you said.
Actually the fostex is running without filter, the tweeter is cut at 10 Khz with 1st order filter, and the woofer cut at 150Hz with a 2nd order; don't know if a similar technique could apply having the audio nirvana as full range player.
Here a view of my OB with the attached tweeter; it's a temporary fit for evaluation, if it will convince me I'll make an hole above the fostex and flush mount the tweeter on the baffle
I've choosen the little fostex because it was supposed to be a decent tweeter also, didn't mind about bass, they are supplied in quantity and quality by the alpha 8.
But as I stated before, compared to my towers they lack something.
I'm pretty sure it's just me, or more exactly my ears, that need extra shacking to feel treble in the right way.
Anyway the game is not over, still considering many alternatives; for sure the audio nirvana can't play alone, I'm sure it needs to be complemented in both bass and treble, as you said.
Actually the fostex is running without filter, the tweeter is cut at 10 Khz with 1st order filter, and the woofer cut at 150Hz with a 2nd order; don't know if a similar technique could apply having the audio nirvana as full range player.
Here a view of my OB with the attached tweeter; it's a temporary fit for evaluation, if it will convince me I'll make an hole above the fostex and flush mount the tweeter on the baffle
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I have a AN super 15, and I can say that David said the same to me, and he probably does not have ears that go anywhere near there. However the mids are gorgeous. I had quite a bit of experiments adding tweeters to full range so a few things worth considering.
1) The sensitivity of a full range especially a large full range is very high. It could hit above 100db/W. Which is what the AN does at some frequency. So getting a normal tweeter that could do that is nearly non existent... So the only way is to pad it down or use a compression driver... Which is why they are always paired with a compression driver for co-axials. I winded up building a separate amp for my ribbons to compensate for it...
2) Most co-axials are not designed with the woofer as full range but rather midbass. They tend to need crossing at 2kHz or so, which is why we want to get into full range to begin with to avoid a crossover at 2kHz or so. AN used to have a coaxial for 15 inch but I don't see it anymore. I should have gotten that one. The only other co ax AN is the 8". This is one speaker I would like to play with one day. The cone is designed as a full range so it goes to 7kHz. It is matched with a compression driver at the back. That is a speaker you might want to try, and a lot cheaper than the AN 12". 😉 (edit: Sorry my bad, the 12" is cheaper than the 8" coax...)
Oon
1) The sensitivity of a full range especially a large full range is very high. It could hit above 100db/W. Which is what the AN does at some frequency. So getting a normal tweeter that could do that is nearly non existent... So the only way is to pad it down or use a compression driver... Which is why they are always paired with a compression driver for co-axials. I winded up building a separate amp for my ribbons to compensate for it...
2) Most co-axials are not designed with the woofer as full range but rather midbass. They tend to need crossing at 2kHz or so, which is why we want to get into full range to begin with to avoid a crossover at 2kHz or so. AN used to have a coaxial for 15 inch but I don't see it anymore. I should have gotten that one. The only other co ax AN is the 8". This is one speaker I would like to play with one day. The cone is designed as a full range so it goes to 7kHz. It is matched with a compression driver at the back. That is a speaker you might want to try, and a lot cheaper than the AN 12". 😉 (edit: Sorry my bad, the 12" is cheaper than the 8" coax...)
Oon
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Hi Oon,
thanks for your post, very interesting
You confirm my suspect, there isn't a full range that doesn't need a tweeter, at least for my ears
So, my next project will include a tweeter; at this point I have two options
- midwoofer + tweeter crossed at 2-3Khz
- full range + tweeter crossed at >8Khz
the second option can be realized also without filtering the fullrange; I'm wondering if it works better filter just the tweeter with 1st order and having the two drivers working in parallel above the tweeter fc
This is the configuration I'm testing now, and seems to work pretty well.
thanks for your post, very interesting
You confirm my suspect, there isn't a full range that doesn't need a tweeter, at least for my ears
So, my next project will include a tweeter; at this point I have two options
- midwoofer + tweeter crossed at 2-3Khz
- full range + tweeter crossed at >8Khz
the second option can be realized also without filtering the fullrange; I'm wondering if it works better filter just the tweeter with 1st order and having the two drivers working in parallel above the tweeter fc
This is the configuration I'm testing now, and seems to work pretty well.
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