I'm looking to buy 12" woofers for OB midbass and have narrowed down to these:
Anybody has experience with two or three of these to compare how they sound/perform?
I also need to decide between having 1 or 2 per side.
Thank you!
- Acoustic Ellegance LO12 - $639 - designed for OB applications
- Beyma 12BR70 - $155 - used in the Caladans with very good comments
- SB Audience Bianco 120B150 - $99 - designed for OB applications
Anybody has experience with two or three of these to compare how they sound/perform?
I also need to decide between having 1 or 2 per side.
Thank you!
I suppose you are in passive mode. Active choose what you want...
I would not use the Beyma 12BR70 for open baffle. The Qts is too low.
I don't know the AE lo12
The SB 12ob150 works well, the bass is tight as I like but the mid >200Hz is a little colored to my ears.
If you can find the SLS12 830669, the mid is better but the bass is less detailed.
I would not use the Beyma 12BR70 for open baffle. The Qts is too low.
I don't know the AE lo12
The SB 12ob150 works well, the bass is tight as I like but the mid >200Hz is a little colored to my ears.
If you can find the SLS12 830669, the mid is better but the bass is less detailed.
For that range, I would (and do) use a nude 15" driver. A 12" would have to work rather harder to get down to 70 Hz, and on a minimal baffle the dipole peak of a 12" would be up around 800 Hz, so crossing it at 400 would throw away maybe 3 dB of useful efficiency. You could use a 12 in an H frame, but that can introduce a different set of issues.
The AE OB driver is a specialized device with an expensive motor and suspension to allow it to go deep with high excursion. Crossing it at 70 Hz would be a waste of its strengths, and of cash.
I'm using the Faital PRO 15FH500 (crossed at 400 to an Eminence Beta 8a), largely because it was available for a very good price when I bought it. I have no complaints about its midrange in that use. The Faital 15PR300 looks like it would be a very nice driver for that range (smooth high end, higher Q for more LF efficiency in OB), but it is quite new so availability is still marginal. The Xmax isn't huge, but crossing it over should alleviate any excursion issues. My 15's barely move.
Bill
The AE OB driver is a specialized device with an expensive motor and suspension to allow it to go deep with high excursion. Crossing it at 70 Hz would be a waste of its strengths, and of cash.
I'm using the Faital PRO 15FH500 (crossed at 400 to an Eminence Beta 8a), largely because it was available for a very good price when I bought it. I have no complaints about its midrange in that use. The Faital 15PR300 looks like it would be a very nice driver for that range (smooth high end, higher Q for more LF efficiency in OB), but it is quite new so availability is still marginal. The Xmax isn't huge, but crossing it over should alleviate any excursion issues. My 15's barely move.
Bill
Thanks for the input.
Right now I have a nude Faital 18hp1010. I tried with different baffles and nude and crossing at 300Hz. These aren't designed for OB and sound rather anemic despite measuring on-target curve. So I’m reluctant to go with drivers not designed for OB unless there have been good experiences like with the 12br70 or your 15FH500.
While a 15" could be crossed at 400Hz, two 12" could easily get to 70Hz (or lower) and could also play higher and I might end up not needing the 8" midrange and could move to a 10" planar for mids.
Right now I have a nude Faital 18hp1010. I tried with different baffles and nude and crossing at 300Hz. These aren't designed for OB and sound rather anemic despite measuring on-target curve. So I’m reluctant to go with drivers not designed for OB unless there have been good experiences like with the 12br70 or your 15FH500.
While a 15" could be crossed at 400Hz, two 12" could easily get to 70Hz (or lower) and could also play higher and I might end up not needing the 8" midrange and could move to a 10" planar for mids.
Drivers with a range of Qts values can be used on open baffles - you just need to be aware that lower Qts will mean increased LF loss, and therefore more equalisation. Siegfried Linkwitz used Peerless XLS drivers with a Qts of around 0.2 for the Orion!
The Beyma12BR70 has Qts of 0.5 - not low. Isn't it used in the Clayton Shaw Caladan OB?
Don't remove my sentences in the context...
Yes I think too much bass loss.
@jerome69 No need to scold me! A driver with Qts of 0.5 can easily be used on open baffle with a passive network.
The difference in Qts between the Beyma (0.5) and the SB Bianco 12OB150 (0.63) is not a huge issue in this context.
Below is a Basta simulation of them both with the same simple passive crossover consisting of a 6mH inductor and 50 uF cap (plus impedance compensation). In both cases a pair of drivers is connected in parallel, and mounted on a 50cm by 100cm baffle. The blue SPL trace is the Beyma 12BR70 - it has about about 3dB less sensitivity, but more bass extension, -6dB point being around 43 Hz. The black SPL trace is the SB Bianco - it only reaches 51 Hz, -6dB.
The heavier cone of the Beyma (74g as opposed to 52.4g) is probably the key difference.
The difference in Qts between the Beyma (0.5) and the SB Bianco 12OB150 (0.63) is not a huge issue in this context.
Below is a Basta simulation of them both with the same simple passive crossover consisting of a 6mH inductor and 50 uF cap (plus impedance compensation). In both cases a pair of drivers is connected in parallel, and mounted on a 50cm by 100cm baffle. The blue SPL trace is the Beyma 12BR70 - it has about about 3dB less sensitivity, but more bass extension, -6dB point being around 43 Hz. The black SPL trace is the SB Bianco - it only reaches 51 Hz, -6dB.
The heavier cone of the Beyma (74g as opposed to 52.4g) is probably the key difference.
Attachments
something to consider: SB Audience NERO-12MWN400D
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/woofers/nero-12mwn400d/
Joseph Crowe's review:
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/sb-audience-nero-12mwn400d-review
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/woofers/nero-12mwn400d/
Joseph Crowe's review:
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/sb-audience-nero-12mwn400d-review
@ianbo I understand, yes you are right you can use a driver with Qt=0.5 with a passive crossover. The simulation shows thing well 
But my experiment says no, better to use a driver with a Qt>0.6, and best is Qt near 0.7 and lower the 0.8.
[ Second thing is the mass of the cone, and third is it done with an enough ventilated motor... ]
Yes on simulation it works but how it sounds really in reality, it is an other story.
But my experiment says no, better to use a driver with a Qt>0.6, and best is Qt near 0.7 and lower the 0.8.
[ Second thing is the mass of the cone, and third is it done with an enough ventilated motor... ]
Yes on simulation it works but how it sounds really in reality, it is an other story.
Looks like a nice driver, but with an Fs of 66 Hz (22 Hz higher than the 12OB150) it's going to roll off quite high in an OB. Joseph Crowe seems to use it in a BR enclosure.
Having said that, if you are only wanting a driver to cover 70 Hz and up (like the OP) it might just about be OK.
@LewinskiH01 The decision on 1 or 2 depends on how loud you want to play, the baffle size, the efficiency you are aiming at, whether you are OK with 4 ohm loads, etc. A single SB 12OB150 on a 50 by 100cm baffle, with 10mH and 40 uF would cover 55 to 4/500 Hz, with approx 90 dB sensitivity, minimum impedance around 7 ohms,
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The guy here that has shown good experiment is @Juhazi with a 12" at midbass. The diameter dictate the bandwidth. It is staying a upperbass-midrange app whatever the Linkwitz transform or DSP cause Xmax will limit it as distorsion, not satying the dopler distorsion due to the open conf and higher exursions.
What is your bandwith targett ? If I am correct Juhazi uses from 100 hz with a LR; you will have pain to both be good in the midrange and going too much low at the same time. (too much amplitude in the cone is certainly not good for midrange accuracy with all the modes and flews of the cone if going too low as there is a lot of energy till 800 hz circa in musics and reccordings most of time. Too much Qts it is dull, too low it is difficult cause optimized for BR loads, as for the Xmax, do not takebelow at least something 7 mm XMax. The more the better as you know.
Some Faitals are well spec enough for that as the SBaudiences. But in your shoes, spend once... go for the AE
What is your bandwith targett ? If I am correct Juhazi uses from 100 hz with a LR; you will have pain to both be good in the midrange and going too much low at the same time. (too much amplitude in the cone is certainly not good for midrange accuracy with all the modes and flews of the cone if going too low as there is a lot of energy till 800 hz circa in musics and reccordings most of time. Too much Qts it is dull, too low it is difficult cause optimized for BR loads, as for the Xmax, do not takebelow at least something 7 mm XMax. The more the better as you know.
Some Faitals are well spec enough for that as the SBaudiences. But in your shoes, spend once... go for the AE
So your targett @LewinskiH01 is 70 hz to 400 hz with a 12" open bass ?
I think it too optmistic, certainly it can play better OB from 100/200 hz to 800 hz something perhaps. Or you'll need very huge baffle... You should lurk to a 18" imho there. The 12" and 8" are redundant imo.
You know already the 12" was a little difficult to play high enough for your Beyma tweeter that was going a little much too low. So you should keep the 8" if good and indeed keep the sub and feel between with a 18" or two push pull (the less frame around the better sound some told)
I think it too optmistic, certainly it can play better OB from 100/200 hz to 800 hz something perhaps. Or you'll need very huge baffle... You should lurk to a 18" imho there. The 12" and 8" are redundant imo.
You know already the 12" was a little difficult to play high enough for your Beyma tweeter that was going a little much too low. So you should keep the 8" if good and indeed keep the sub and feel between with a 18" or two push pull (the less frame around the better sound some told)
You mentioned you're using Acourate. Do you have a high-pass filter applied to the Faital 15? If so, the driver's intrinsic Qt is only one (fairly small) factor in the overall response. It's unlikely to be the principal cause of anaemic mid-bass. What do measurements show? Could it be a room issue?
@diyiggy
That is basically what I´m already doing: I use a nude 18" Faital from 70 to 300Hz, digital XO thru Acourate.
I´m looking to keep the baffle small, around 45cm x 75cm, loosing that anemic sound and getting to 400Hz. Getting below 70Hz would be nice, but secondary vs the prior goals. Right now the 18" are powered by a Hypex UcD400 so higher efficiency would be nice but not required.
If I can day-dream: a Radian LT3 passively xo to a Radian LM10n driven by my SET amp covering above 400Hz, the 12" covering 70 to 400Hz driven by my KT88 push-pull (currently driving my 8" mids), subs below.
Now I have the Beyma TPL open back driven by SET above 1.3kHz, 8PE21 OB driven by KT88 from 300Hz, nude 18" driven by UcD from 70Hz, 4 sealed 12" subs.
I´m trying to solve the midbass sound first. Hopefully in OB, or maybe I need to move to sealed.
@ianbo
It could be something else indeed. Room is treated. Back wall (behind the speakers) is absorbent and so is the ceiling. The wall behind me has a diffusor right behind me and absorption to the left and right.
That is basically what I´m already doing: I use a nude 18" Faital from 70 to 300Hz, digital XO thru Acourate.
I´m looking to keep the baffle small, around 45cm x 75cm, loosing that anemic sound and getting to 400Hz. Getting below 70Hz would be nice, but secondary vs the prior goals. Right now the 18" are powered by a Hypex UcD400 so higher efficiency would be nice but not required.
If I can day-dream: a Radian LT3 passively xo to a Radian LM10n driven by my SET amp covering above 400Hz, the 12" covering 70 to 400Hz driven by my KT88 push-pull (currently driving my 8" mids), subs below.
Now I have the Beyma TPL open back driven by SET above 1.3kHz, 8PE21 OB driven by KT88 from 300Hz, nude 18" driven by UcD from 70Hz, 4 sealed 12" subs.
I´m trying to solve the midbass sound first. Hopefully in OB, or maybe I need to move to sealed.
@ianbo
It could be something else indeed. Room is treated. Back wall (behind the speakers) is absorbent and so is the ceiling. The wall behind me has a diffusor right behind me and absorption to the left and right.
Lewinski,
Can you post any measurements of your existing 18, and/or the EQ that is being applied to it? I should think you could get plenty of midbass.
Some folks never find OB bass satisfying, could be you are one of them, no shame in that. You could build boxes for the 18's and try them, probably cheaper and more instructive than just buying more drivers.
Bill
Can you post any measurements of your existing 18, and/or the EQ that is being applied to it? I should think you could get plenty of midbass.
Some folks never find OB bass satisfying, could be you are one of them, no shame in that. You could build boxes for the 18's and try them, probably cheaper and more instructive than just buying more drivers.
Bill