Or front loaded horn ? I always wondered for FLH but I have not the free area for that in y living room so it solved the problem for me as an impossibility to go that path !I´m trying to solve the midbass sound first. Hopefully in OB, or maybe I need to move to sealed.
2* (45+75) = 240 cmThat is basically what I´m already doing: I use a nude 18" Faital from 70 to 300Hz, digital XO thru Acourate.
I´m looking to keep the baffle small, around 45cm x 75cm
34400/240 = ~143 Hz, setting on, and perpendicular to, the floor lowers it by 0.707x = ~101 Hz
Clayton Shaw uses these Beyma 12BR70 in his new Caladan OB:
"Shaw’s Caladan boasts a 1.5" thick baffle made from kiln-dried, solid American hardwood. It employs twin 12" Beyma pro-audio bass/mid units and a 1 1/8" silk-dome tweeter. Frequency response is said to be 32hz–20khz, ±2db, the sensitivity 93db/W/m, and the nominal impedance 4 ohms. The Caladan stands 38" high by 18" wide by 10" deep, including the legs, and weigh 35lb. Isoacoustics Gaia iii feet are included."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audioclayton-shaw-acoustic-lab
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/1cyvlon
https://claytonshawacousticlab.com/697-2/
"Shaw’s Caladan boasts a 1.5" thick baffle made from kiln-dried, solid American hardwood. It employs twin 12" Beyma pro-audio bass/mid units and a 1 1/8" silk-dome tweeter. Frequency response is said to be 32hz–20khz, ±2db, the sensitivity 93db/W/m, and the nominal impedance 4 ohms. The Caladan stands 38" high by 18" wide by 10" deep, including the legs, and weigh 35lb. Isoacoustics Gaia iii feet are included."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audioclayton-shaw-acoustic-lab
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/1cyvlon
https://claytonshawacousticlab.com/697-2/
Last edited:
That's about what you can expect from such an inexpensive driver...Bianco colored above 200Hz would be a con. I wasn't aware. Thank you!
Since you mentioned using two 12" drivers, I will mention that in some of my own OB designs I have used four 8" drivers. This makes for a nice compact and square bass section. The 8" driver will not have issues like cone breakup or surround resonances, etc. in a passband that goes up to 400Hz. Using four you can wire series-parallel or even all in parallel for higher voltage sensitivity. Four 8" drivers with 5mm Xmax can operate down to and crossed over at e.g. 70Hz with pretty high SPL (for home audio) even when the baffle is not large. Even a relatively cheap 8" will not have issues below 400Hz...
Maybe this is an option you would consider?
That speaker will have a very F-d up power response. Crossing a 12" to a monopole 1" ish dome tweeter is not typically recommended because the radiation pattern will grow narrow just below and then widen to almost monopole above, the crossover point. I'm not seeing anything to "boast" about here...Clayton Shaw uses these Beyma 12BR70 in his new Caladan OB:
"Shaw’s Caladan boasts a 1.5" thick baffle made from kiln-dried, solid American hardwood. It employs twin 12" Beyma pro-audio bass/mid units and a 1 1/8" silk-dome tweeter. Frequency response is said to be 32hz–20khz, ±2db, the sensitivity 93db/W/m, and the nominal impedance 4 ohms. The Caladan stands 38" high by 18" wide by 10" deep, including the legs, and weigh 35lb. Isoacoustics Gaia iii feet are included."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audioclayton-shaw-acoustic-lab
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/1cyvlon
https://claytonshawacousticlab.com/697-2/
Your system has too much drivers ... Four way is a problem to tune, and you want to go to five ways ?I´m trying to solve the midbass sound first. Hopefully in OB, or maybe I need to move to sealed.
I think with only three ways you can do something sounding good.
You don't need a 12" for the midbass, the 8" can do well the job. You have to equalize actively the 8" to use it in the range 130Hz-1300Hz LR4 slope recommended The anemic mid-bass is a bad equalization or a negative effect of other drivers. The equalization depends on the baffle size.
Note add a second 8" as suggested could be done
And the 18" or 4x12" covers the bass 20-130Hz. Keep thing simple.
I was already done this kind of system with an analog passive crossover and the result is stunning. Do not forget to align acoustic centers
I havent heard the speaker but apparently plenty of good reviews...I was just putting it as an example. Maybe they do sound weird...That speaker will have a very F-d up power response. Crossing a 12" to a monopole 1" ish dome tweeter is not typically recommended because the radiation pattern will grow narrow just below and then widen to almost monopole above, the crossover point. I'm not seeing anything to "boast" about here...
For a sealed enclosure loudspeaker (by definition, though terms are sort of misnomers):Historically driver Qt = desired transient response = Qtc, so 0.5/transient perfect - 0.707/max flat
Q < 0.5........Over damped...........No overshoot to rest position after a step input, extended settling time, tapered low frequency response
Q = 0.5........Critically damped......No overshoot to rest position after a step input, minimum settling time without overshoot (not perfect transient response)
Q > 0.5........Under damped..........Overshoot to rest position after a step input
Q = 0.577.....Bessel Function.........Very slight overshoot to rest position after a step input, minimum settling time
Q = 0.71......Butterworth Function..Slight overshoot to rest position after a step input, lowest flat frequency response
And to make things a little more complicated:
https://www.geocities.ws/kreskovs/Box-Q.html
Well, this is a bit of a puzzle. I can't see any reason why the Faital 18HP1010 should be a failure in this application. But unless you've worked out what the problem with it is, you risk spening money and not fixing anything.
Can you share your equalisation/crossover on the Faital? Or for whole setup?
Can you share your equalisation/crossover on the Faital? Or for whole setup?
what does this number/calculation represent?2* (45+75) = 240 cm
34400/240 = ~143 Hz, setting on, and perpendicular to, the floor lowers it by 0.707x = ~101 Hz
Yes, I would consider this. I do have 4x 8PE21 but these aren´t woofers but midranges. Not enough Xmax. Which 8" drivers have worked well for you in OB and having good midrange into 400Hz?That's about what you can expect from such an inexpensive driver...
Since you mentioned using two 12" drivers, I will mention that in some of my own OB designs I have used four 8" drivers. This makes for a nice compact and square bass section. The 8" driver will not have issues like cone breakup or surround resonances, etc. in a passband that goes up to 400Hz. Using four you can wire series-parallel or even all in parallel for higher voltage sensitivity. Four 8" drivers with 5mm Xmax can operate down to and crossed over at e.g. 70Hz with pretty high SPL (for home audio) even when the baffle is not large. Even a relatively cheap 8" will not have issues below 400Hz...
Maybe this is an option you would consider?
@ianbo , @lousymusician
Will get my measurements with Acourate and the correction applied. It´s a bit cumbersome because it´s in a computer I rarely use and need to bend over backwards to get it up and running. Hopefully I can get it done tonight. Otherwise tomorrow night.
Makes total sense to first figure out what is causing this, if you can help me from reading graphs.
Thank you!
You're welcome!Thanks for pointing this out. I was aware of the graph for boxed speakers but not sure how to connect it with open baffles?
The driver I´m using has a Qts of 0.4. If Qtc=Qts then it might be what explains the "anemic" midbass I´m hearing.
0.4 Qt = measured?, Specs say 0.31 Qt, audible difference WRT (mid) bass output.
Some of the cheaper Visaton drivers are nice in OB. The W300 is a good 12 for OB. Eminence Delta Pro 15A and the Deltalite 2512 are good sounding 15s. Newark has some cheap cast frame pro drivers which also sound good for higher Q applications
Someone mentioned the Beta8 for a mid. I fully endorse that driver. Its a hidden gem. Beautiful midrange. Likely the best pro mid under $100.
Someone mentioned the Beta8 for a mid. I fully endorse that driver. Its a hidden gem. Beautiful midrange. Likely the best pro mid under $100.
@ianbo , @lousymusician
Some measurements from when I developed the filters in Acourate.
First graph shows left and right sweep measurements using the digital xo, also the target curve against which the speaker response is hammered into shape:
You can see the massive drop of the 18" starting around 280Hz.
These are the xo:
Sorry for the picture quality and size...couldn't format well on Android.
Some measurements from when I developed the filters in Acourate.
First graph shows left and right sweep measurements using the digital xo, also the target curve against which the speaker response is hammered into shape:
You can see the massive drop of the 18" starting around 280Hz.
These are the xo:
Sorry for the picture quality and size...couldn't format well on Android.
I understood, sure your crossover is not working ! You don't have any open baffle equalization .... Sure you don't have any low mid and you can better with less.
This an example of crossover I done. I include the dipole equalization and delay correction.
With your numeric crossover you should do the same crossover response.
Bass correction is red curve - Green is mid curve and blue is tweeter curve : the only normal curve without dipole correction. The mid curve is a little more complex du to mid-bass correction.
To make dipole correction you should take into account the dimension of the baffle. Here the baffle is 30 cm wide, a dipole equalization 20-400Hz is done.
Note you can do a global dipole equalization (see Perry Marshall designs ) or for each drivers.
This an example of crossover I done. I include the dipole equalization and delay correction.
With your numeric crossover you should do the same crossover response.
Bass correction is red curve - Green is mid curve and blue is tweeter curve : the only normal curve without dipole correction. The mid curve is a little more complex du to mid-bass correction.
To make dipole correction you should take into account the dimension of the baffle. Here the baffle is 30 cm wide, a dipole equalization 20-400Hz is done.
Note you can do a global dipole equalization (see Perry Marshall designs ) or for each drivers.
Yes, I would consider this. I do have 4x 8PE21 but these aren´t woofers but midranges. Not enough Xmax. Which 8" drivers have worked well for you in OB and having good midrange into 400Hz?
The last time I used the 4x 8" drivers I used a Peerless HDS 8" woofer but they are no longer available. You could for example use the new Dayton 8" SIG225, which has some similarities to the Peerless driver and would perform well below 400Hz. I would definitely use a home audio 8" and not a pro audio driver in this case. I'm not sure what brands are available where you live, or I would give you some more recommendations.
- Home
- Loudspeakers
- Multi-Way
- Best 12" woofer for open baffle midbass?