http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/120847-what-causes-listening-fatigue-27.html#post3591649
Baseballbat, seems several of us on the same page
Baseballbat, seems several of us on the same page
Well, you just mentioned what I think is the best 8'' 2-way on the market, at least the best that I've heard.
Crap I deleted it, guess I'll post it again lol but slightly modified.
I always kind of assumed (at least I thought it would lower it somewhat) a notch filter at the FR peak would lower lower the distortion you mentioned above because it is lower the amplitude of the FR peak. Basically I assumed the distortion level you mentioned and the peak level were correlated, at least somewhat.
Hard for me to compare many different speakers and designs, but I loved the bass in my old Eton 8-800 two ways, which pretty much means I loved the whole speaker, since I really seem to have "golden ears" when it comes to bass. Also Eton's cones are kind of like metals cones, but probably even stiffer (they are thick due to the honey comb structure), but they have a tacky coating on them to dampen resonances a little bit I assume, especially the tall peak at the top. I think they are known for really good bass, Eton's that is, much like Seas. Also Eton's cones don't dent like metal. Not a fan of most cones out there. Eton's might have a cheap motor though I don't know. Motor seems to be a little more important to spend money/attention. Eton and ScanSpeak (and Ushers? Mostly a copy right?) are my favorite cones. SS and Seas should have nice motors I would think, just comparing the price points and exterior looks.
I also like Eton's because not every one uses them. I guess all those people who say, I just have to be different are right
Well actually I just wanted the stiffest cone possible for the "tightest" bass and that seem to be exactly what I got, but it's hard to say.
Also the 8-800 is a different woofer than the 6.5-7 inch midwoofers. It's really a 6.5-7 inch woofer with the off-axis response of an 8 inch of course.
Has a small X-max for an 8 inch. You kind of have to know what you want when you're building speakers and what certain drivers are designed for.
You read things on the web like this driver is not good because of this and that. The websites that do distortion tests are actually two steps forward and then maybe one step back (if I can be cynical) because when sciencey stuff is involved people take results as gospel. A test is not the real world where your ears/mind are the evaluator.
You have to know what the test(s) mean and if they are significant because there are theoretically an infinite amount of ways to test things.
When in doubt just listen to the smoking chimp.
As long as I'm rambling, you might want to try a nextel cone. It's suppose to be "somewhere inbetween" metal and paper.
I always kind of assumed (at least I thought it would lower it somewhat) a notch filter at the FR peak would lower lower the distortion you mentioned above because it is lower the amplitude of the FR peak. Basically I assumed the distortion level you mentioned and the peak level were correlated, at least somewhat.
Hard for me to compare many different speakers and designs, but I loved the bass in my old Eton 8-800 two ways, which pretty much means I loved the whole speaker, since I really seem to have "golden ears" when it comes to bass. Also Eton's cones are kind of like metals cones, but probably even stiffer (they are thick due to the honey comb structure), but they have a tacky coating on them to dampen resonances a little bit I assume, especially the tall peak at the top. I think they are known for really good bass, Eton's that is, much like Seas. Also Eton's cones don't dent like metal. Not a fan of most cones out there. Eton's might have a cheap motor though I don't know. Motor seems to be a little more important to spend money/attention. Eton and ScanSpeak (and Ushers? Mostly a copy right?) are my favorite cones. SS and Seas should have nice motors I would think, just comparing the price points and exterior looks.
I also like Eton's because not every one uses them. I guess all those people who say, I just have to be different are right
Well actually I just wanted the stiffest cone possible for the "tightest" bass and that seem to be exactly what I got, but it's hard to say.
Also the 8-800 is a different woofer than the 6.5-7 inch midwoofers. It's really a 6.5-7 inch woofer with the off-axis response of an 8 inch of course.
Has a small X-max for an 8 inch. You kind of have to know what you want when you're building speakers and what certain drivers are designed for.
You read things on the web like this driver is not good because of this and that. The websites that do distortion tests are actually two steps forward and then maybe one step back (if I can be cynical) because when sciencey stuff is involved people take results as gospel. A test is not the real world where your ears/mind are the evaluator.
You have to know what the test(s) mean and if they are significant because there are theoretically an infinite amount of ways to test things.
When in doubt just listen to the smoking chimp.
As long as I'm rambling, you might want to try a nextel cone. It's suppose to be "somewhere inbetween" metal and paper.
I can't comment on distortion or harmonics (lack of knowledge), my understanding of aluminium driver technology is through casual conversations with Paddy Handscombe(Electrofluidics) back in the 90s and a few with Doreen Bance recently - Ted (Jordan) pioneered and advocated wide band units, Doreen(Bandor) took it to the next stage by being the first to anodize aluminium cones; her 8" and 2.5" units are, according to her, v well behaved when used together with a simple 1st order passive or active
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Boston Acoustic : 5,5' aluminium midrange unit of the Lynfield Serie. a flat 125 Hz to 2600 in my Lynfield 400L with 85 db.
The metal stick is an acoustical filter to avoid ringing of the wooffer made with several foil of aluminium.
The picture (pdf file) is a courtesey of Internet : this is the one of the Lynfield 500L (the same in the 400L) , the amiral Ship of boston Acoustic in the 90s.
The metal stick is an acoustical filter to avoid ringing of the wooffer made with several foil of aluminium.
The picture (pdf file) is a courtesey of Internet : this is the one of the Lynfield 500L (the same in the 400L) , the amiral Ship of boston Acoustic in the 90s.
Looked at Doreen's designs, quite nice I'll have to say, didn't see prices, distortion or off axis specs tho.
One issue I see tho with most is that hard anodizing should be done to one side of the cone and not the whole enchilada. like the surface treatment of a paper cone driver. Have a bit of insight into design and wonder why this is, other than difficulty to produce. Certainly is easier to drop hundreds in to a vat, flip the switch and be done with it. I'm also wondering why no one has tried annealing the metal around the edge or in various places around the cone to dampen the ringing that occurs. Don't have an answer to that, perhaps they will after reading this.
Hey I remember seeing this design in a magazine, odd but pretty cool looking. Thanks for sharing
350 W Rms !
Yes, that's why I said myself before buying them : Odd ! Phil Jones the designers had sucess before at Acoustic Energy with aluminium designs. He wanted here avoid surface traitment for microdetails, the metal stick is working good but the amplifier must to be strong to support the return current... The mid woofer is on an aluminium plate (for the tweeter) : there are no screws in front of the plate, the tweeter and mid woofer are tied behind and pushed like the Magicos' or the Linkwitzs' OB... but 20 years before!
Odd looking but very transparent and soft (but the tweeter is not!) without dryness of magnesium cone which made miracles above 400 Htz like the Seas one !
Why aluminium cone is needed for you ?
Many talks here about the SB acoustic Satory but not aluminium... the LRX of Seas is. The W serie of seas is magnesium (said to be better at low frequency than aluminium), the W 6" midrange has to be cut LR4 above 1600 to avoid ringing.
the advices about Scanspeak, seas, SB acoustic... and Wavecore seem to be serious ! It is better in theory to avoid a cut between 300 and 1600 Hz... that's theory... some designers are sucessfull without follow this rule... sometimes ! I oftenb heard good speakers with a 100 to 150 Hz crossover.... not 200, 250 or 300 but less than 150 htz ! But I'm not designer ! Why Wilson use an old tweaked tweeter of Focal (titanium inversed dome)... I don't know !
Yes, that's why I said myself before buying them : Odd ! Phil Jones the designers had sucess before at Acoustic Energy with aluminium designs. He wanted here avoid surface traitment for microdetails, the metal stick is working good but the amplifier must to be strong to support the return current... The mid woofer is on an aluminium plate (for the tweeter) : there are no screws in front of the plate, the tweeter and mid woofer are tied behind and pushed like the Magicos' or the Linkwitzs' OB... but 20 years before!
Odd looking but very transparent and soft (but the tweeter is not!) without dryness of magnesium cone which made miracles above 400 Htz like the Seas one !
Why aluminium cone is needed for you ?
Many talks here about the SB acoustic Satory but not aluminium... the LRX of Seas is. The W serie of seas is magnesium (said to be better at low frequency than aluminium), the W 6" midrange has to be cut LR4 above 1600 to avoid ringing.
the advices about Scanspeak, seas, SB acoustic... and Wavecore seem to be serious ! It is better in theory to avoid a cut between 300 and 1600 Hz... that's theory... some designers are sucessfull without follow this rule... sometimes ! I oftenb heard good speakers with a 100 to 150 Hz crossover.... not 200, 250 or 300 but less than 150 htz ! But I'm not designer ! Why Wilson use an old tweaked tweeter of Focal (titanium inversed dome)... I don't know !
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E0042-08S W18NX001
i heard this Nextel unit in a two way kit sell by Lautspresher.de amplified with an Accuphase 306 I planed to buy (the amplifier).
very good and transparent, less distorsion in the high medium than the magnesium, the magnesium W is better in distorsion in the bass midrange. The Nextel can be cut higher than the Magnesium. I said myself Acurate timbre but too thin tone but don't know if because of the two way design or the Nextel speaker (but I have too an fiber-glass mid woofer by Seas designed for Proac D15 and was the same : very accurate but too thin = 2 way design?)
By the way here it's two ways with units designed for vented box. is it what you want (vented = QTS <0.4)? Consider the aluminium AL 160 of Visaton in a closed box design if you are in 3 way, QTS is near 0,5 if I remember and the QTS given by all the manufacturer i often less than reality ! Closed box give good results in medium but larger box than vented...that's wat I read.
PS: you can use maybe the AL160 with an OB design in the mid if crossover is 300 Htz/350 hz but this mid woofer is gooder (zaph audio) above 300 hz, but the good QTS helps with an OB design and it's alumiuniun !
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A couple of excellent write ups on the subject of cone break up
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-298.html#post3515477
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-298.html#post3515696
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-298.html#post3515477
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-298.html#post3515696
I like the chainsaws behind the choir quote (describing breakup even at suppressed volume)
The Seas alu drivers really do break up quite dramatically, possibly due to the cones are stiffer than others I don't know. The Peerless HDS drivers are much better in comparison.
I'm currently reading up on Jim Thiel's approach to crossovers, dealing with aluminium driver breakup (notch filtering) etc
http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200107.htm
The Seas alu drivers really do break up quite dramatically, possibly due to the cones are stiffer than others I don't know. The Peerless HDS drivers are much better in comparison.
I'm currently reading up on Jim Thiel's approach to crossovers, dealing with aluminium driver breakup (notch filtering) etc
http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200107.htm
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Yes Bill... but I'm afraid ThieL are the same than Boston lynfield : very good soundstage but tiring listening... not really for the music lovers, same problem with their speakers for 15 years: tweeter is too bright ! Analytical speaker when they are too shiny are not good to live with. Some says than the problem is aluminium...but for the tweeter like the good Seas one Zaph use.
I'm asking myself if the problem is damping of aluminium for mid units. In theory aluminium is excelent and like you say it's not a problem to avoid the bump with a big notch (LR4 or more with active filters...)
Harghhhh I want to buy an active filter to experiment... but everybody do it 10 years before... Can I have to do better than the experienced guys everywhere... no I can't !
Is there here a DIY three ways speakers whith a gramy Awards ? Linkwitz ? Others ?
I'm asking myself if the problem is damping of aluminium for mid units. In theory aluminium is excelent and like you say it's not a problem to avoid the bump with a big notch (LR4 or more with active filters...)
Harghhhh I want to buy an active filter to experiment... but everybody do it 10 years before... Can I have to do better than the experienced guys everywhere... no I can't !
Is there here a DIY three ways speakers whith a gramy Awards ? Linkwitz ? Others ?
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For mids and bass I really like aluminium drive units for their quick transients and clear sound, but for treble units yes, great care must be taken or they can sound tiring. Some of the vifa alu units are supposed to be quite easy on the ear. I always check the response graph at the vocal region of a metal tweet/FR, if its reasonably flat between 4-10khz, or slightly reduced then even better
Personally I'm a huge fan of Peerless low freq and mid freq drivers, and consider most other drivers mentioned in this thread (Seas, Scanspeak, etc.) way overpriced and more art objects for those with whimpy egos. They're very good, but so are Peerless at a fraction the cost. I'm speaking from first hand experience here. Aluminum cones might be the best for bass, at least in theory. I was going to use Peerless alum cone 6.5 inch woofers in a system I recently built, but instead went with the Nomex cone 6.5 inch HDS-P830875 Peerless drivers so I wouldn't have to look at aluminum, which looks tacky to me, and it gets dirty and dusty over time. The Nomex drivers sound VERY good to my ear, and can be used well into the midrange without fancy electronics (ideally to 1kHZ with one or two pole lowpass filter in my opinion). I personally wouldn't use a metal cone driver above about 200HZ. Any metal cone or Kevlar cone woofer will have severe peaking in the upper midrange (where the ear is most sensitive). It needs severe notching electronically. Very difficult for most people to do well enough. It's not just a peak, it's a "ring", as in exaggeration over time, creating a more audible problem. Maybe that "ring" is what makes people think they sound more real (?)
What if the resonant peaks drift in frequency over time? Does the electronic notch filter track that? Metal diaphram tweeters have severe peaking just above the audible range (25kHZish) which is said to be fatiguing over time (ribbon tweeters don't usually have this problem though). Not a big fan of metal, although to be fair I've heard it sound very good in some electronics intensive systems (Linkwitz Orion for example).
BTW, Nomex is a fiber impregnated paper cone, probably very similar to carbon fiber. Stiff enough to be relatively clean without requiring substantial electronic correction.
What if the resonant peaks drift in frequency over time? Does the electronic notch filter track that? Metal diaphram tweeters have severe peaking just above the audible range (25kHZish) which is said to be fatiguing over time (ribbon tweeters don't usually have this problem though). Not a big fan of metal, although to be fair I've heard it sound very good in some electronics intensive systems (Linkwitz Orion for example).
BTW, Nomex is a fiber impregnated paper cone, probably very similar to carbon fiber. Stiff enough to be relatively clean without requiring substantial electronic correction.
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You are right Bob,
We often forgett Peereless (because less marketing than Seas or Scanspeak (expensive too because of the human cost in this very developed area... The brand is always here=serious), but great Q/P, their fabric dome Tweeter sound great in a speaker I heard. i think an old produc well designed is never a problem, brandnew is not always synonym of good !
I carrefully read what you wrote because you experiment a lot. With my own taste I consider Polypropylen or paper with treatment most of the time better for the mid. But here we talk about driver we can buy and not special unit designed for special purchasers when they ring at Scanspeak (more than 100 units ?!). Aluminium tweeter can be soft used by great designer, don't understand they are not in Thiel speakers... but maybe because the mid unit... I don't know.
And I can't understand why paper is used in bass woofer. heavy woofer in aluminium could be better here. Some talks for woofer (6" and more) made with paper because it's light ?!?! So faster ?!?! Where is the relation ? fast singing perception with bass is not a question of woofer but most of the time of tweeter !
I'm not physician but it seems crasy and sing like marketing. Damping, distorsion are not as important for bass (before 100 Hz in my mind). And the charge and choice of Q factor is more important for bass than the weight of the used material ? Am I wrong ?
I like very much my old kef (polypropylen) and I would like my Boston Acoustic with aluminium sing like that but with their transparency (and i don't talk about climbing tweeter when I talk about transparency).
This thread about aluminium is very informative...
We often forgett Peereless (because less marketing than Seas or Scanspeak (expensive too because of the human cost in this very developed area... The brand is always here=serious), but great Q/P, their fabric dome Tweeter sound great in a speaker I heard. i think an old produc well designed is never a problem, brandnew is not always synonym of good !
I carrefully read what you wrote because you experiment a lot. With my own taste I consider Polypropylen or paper with treatment most of the time better for the mid. But here we talk about driver we can buy and not special unit designed for special purchasers when they ring at Scanspeak (more than 100 units ?!). Aluminium tweeter can be soft used by great designer, don't understand they are not in Thiel speakers... but maybe because the mid unit... I don't know.
And I can't understand why paper is used in bass woofer. heavy woofer in aluminium could be better here. Some talks for woofer (6" and more) made with paper because it's light ?!?! So faster ?!?! Where is the relation ? fast singing perception with bass is not a question of woofer but most of the time of tweeter !
I'm not physician but it seems crasy and sing like marketing. Damping, distorsion are not as important for bass (before 100 Hz in my mind). And the charge and choice of Q factor is more important for bass than the weight of the used material ? Am I wrong ?
I like very much my old kef (polypropylen) and I would like my Boston Acoustic with aluminium sing like that but with their transparency (and i don't talk about climbing tweeter when I talk about transparency).
This thread about aluminium is very informative...
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The vocal region is not between 150 and 400 hz and after harmonics ?
I ask myself about the Fletcher curve at 90 DB and the 3500 Hz bump ? Do we have to design a trap notch at 3500 for the 2500 to 5000 Hz ? Or are the reverbs too important to worth with that ?
Are Density and non fatigue listing due to a bump between 90 hz and 150 and a ISO curve after 2OOO Hz ?
Most of time I have the feeling than a good speaker is not just a question of crossover in relation to paper, nomex, plastic, wood, a** leather units.
Is the Satory a real greater speaker because of reed ? Alexandrie reed paper ? Or because all the speaker has a good design ?
Is it not a question of cost? if you take an aluminium cone with enough large magnet you can have the same but with a more expencive cost for buyers !
Old fanatics says than alnico and his magnetic field is better for musicality than ordinary ferrite or the more powerfull neodyne...
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