I was feeling nostalgic about the Snell A/IIIs again, sorry, and one thing that struck me was that even for their time (mid 1980s) the mid and tweeters in those speakers were nothing remarkable. A middle of the road Vifa dome tweeter and 4" (I think) poly midrange, or coated paper. As hobbyists we constantly overspend money (well I do anyway) on drivers trying to outdo cheap commercial variants, but maybe the real trick is in the design and not the money spent on the drivers?
So I ask you fellow enthusiasts, you who have built and heard and bought speakers, are there speakers out there you wax poetically for which did not need to use the most expensive cutting edge technology to show the state of the art experience? What were your reference points? Convince us all that we need to spend less money on drivers. 🙂
So I ask you fellow enthusiasts, you who have built and heard and bought speakers, are there speakers out there you wax poetically for which did not need to use the most expensive cutting edge technology to show the state of the art experience? What were your reference points? Convince us all that we need to spend less money on drivers. 🙂
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Not the best speaker I've ever heard by any means, but the best 'Sound / £' I've heard was the Mk1 Edingdale my late and much-missed friend & collaborator Colin and I designed (based on an initial suggestion from our mutual friend Nick).
The drivers cost us peanuts at trade prices (about £170 for a pair), & they gave an honest 94dB 1m/2.83v sensitivity & an easy 7ohm average impedance load without any reactive swings other than the usual vented box LF peaks. You could criticise them in strict hi-fi terms but for the price they played music like nothing else I've heard. We did pricier versions of the Edingdale afterward: the Mk2, the SR and GT, and each model just got better -the last was ridiculously good (although I say it as shouldn't) and was still exceptional value -though much more expensive. That first version, even though outperformed by the later models, still stands out for me though as an example of how much sound you can wring from inexpensive drivers, if carefully selected & implemented. Which doesn't necessarily mean adhering to the usual design approaches either -the Mk1 Edingdale in particular went against the grain in many respects apart from the box alignment, but it still worked.
The drivers cost us peanuts at trade prices (about £170 for a pair), & they gave an honest 94dB 1m/2.83v sensitivity & an easy 7ohm average impedance load without any reactive swings other than the usual vented box LF peaks. You could criticise them in strict hi-fi terms but for the price they played music like nothing else I've heard. We did pricier versions of the Edingdale afterward: the Mk2, the SR and GT, and each model just got better -the last was ridiculously good (although I say it as shouldn't) and was still exceptional value -though much more expensive. That first version, even though outperformed by the later models, still stands out for me though as an example of how much sound you can wring from inexpensive drivers, if carefully selected & implemented. Which doesn't necessarily mean adhering to the usual design approaches either -the Mk1 Edingdale in particular went against the grain in many respects apart from the box alignment, but it still worked.
Attachments
cheap drivers but well designed crossovers is a trade mark of Don Highends designs
one of them
legendary is "Tricky" box. The designer announces at the moment it can be built again as drivers are available again
one of them
legendary is "Tricky" box. The designer announces at the moment it can be built again as drivers are available again
Yeah, this has the be one of the Gold Standards for reasonable entry cost, relatively easy box build, and a high level end outcome. 2.5 way with SB Acoustics drivers.
I can't recall if these were from this or last year, but 'll go for the cheaper end of things: neither are my designs; I really liked:
From what I've heard and read, a good designer can make cheaper drivers sound great through their crossover magic: for kits and proved projects, think TriTrix, Classix II, 'Best Iron Driver MWAF' winners, AA Monitors from Dennis Murphy, "Caritas' by the late Jeff Bagby.
Geoff
- Michael Chua's "Lark SM", 2 way with Vifa BC25TG tweeter and SB16pfc woofer (A$ driver cost about $160); and
- "Zenvos" two way speakers by PWRRYD from the Mid West Audio Forum, Peerless 830656 mid and Peerless DA25 tweeter, driver cost about A$150; unfortunately, the tweeters are NLA unless you want 1,000.
From what I've heard and read, a good designer can make cheaper drivers sound great through their crossover magic: for kits and proved projects, think TriTrix, Classix II, 'Best Iron Driver MWAF' winners, AA Monitors from Dennis Murphy, "Caritas' by the late Jeff Bagby.
Geoff
It was interesting to see two recommendations for multi driver combinations, and a Visaton WAW from Germany.
The multi ways being Scottmoose's Erdingdales, and a mention for Joe Rasmussen's Elsinore's.
I have been thinking a re do of the first Mission 753's using either faital 5Fe125, SB 13PFC or Dayton DC130's plus suitable tweeter, would make a lot of people happy with careful dimensioning of box, driver layouts and a crossover that didn't contain to many parts, yet got you somewhere to a reasonable power response DI curve for the all important measurements.
I mentioned the WAW as its slightly different approach to designing a speaker not used much in Erik's nostalgia period I believe.
I think somebody had better design a new 4 way plus tweeter rather quickly, before IAG re spins it and it hits the streets at £2999 as a new take on a favourite Mission Loudspeaker of old.
The multi ways being Scottmoose's Erdingdales, and a mention for Joe Rasmussen's Elsinore's.
I have been thinking a re do of the first Mission 753's using either faital 5Fe125, SB 13PFC or Dayton DC130's plus suitable tweeter, would make a lot of people happy with careful dimensioning of box, driver layouts and a crossover that didn't contain to many parts, yet got you somewhere to a reasonable power response DI curve for the all important measurements.
I mentioned the WAW as its slightly different approach to designing a speaker not used much in Erik's nostalgia period I believe.
I think somebody had better design a new 4 way plus tweeter rather quickly, before IAG re spins it and it hits the streets at £2999 as a new take on a favourite Mission Loudspeaker of old.
I raise you one:
What is 92dB/2.83V at 1m?
Playable on an 6-8 ohm amplifier, Eg. AV receiver.
118 dB maximum continuous SPL?
Full sized floor stander, 47” (almost 1.2m) tall, a Svelte 8.5” wide, and can be placed close to walls
4 woofers, 2 midranges, 1 tweeter per speaker.
Cost: $3000 in parts, per speaker.
What is 92dB/2.83V at 1m?
Playable on an 6-8 ohm amplifier, Eg. AV receiver.
118 dB maximum continuous SPL?
Full sized floor stander, 47” (almost 1.2m) tall, a Svelte 8.5” wide, and can be placed close to walls
4 woofers, 2 midranges, 1 tweeter per speaker.
Cost: $300
Uluwatu
I have to agree that ticks the boxes.
Maybe if we did it here, we could firm up on a median design i.e. size constraints and no of drivers needed to hit target sensitivity/overall impedance with a price ceiling of XXX.00 all MDF, crossover components, and drivers, but not including finish or veneer.
Maybe if we did it here, we could firm up on a median design i.e. size constraints and no of drivers needed to hit target sensitivity/overall impedance with a price ceiling of XXX.00 all MDF, crossover components, and drivers, but not including finish or veneer.
Audiopoli Protones are a pretty nice build with (nearly) the same SB Acoustics drivers everyone else uses. They seem to constantly outperform like 98% of the speakers exhibited at the Helsinki audio show
https://github.com/Ponkala/audiopoli-protone/wiki
https://github.com/Ponkala/audiopoli-protone/wiki
My impression is that as knowledge and experience grows most hobbyists with a leaning towards engineering rather than audiophile tend to reduce interest in premium range drivers and increase interest in what can be done with good design and standard range drivers. Studio monitor offering probably the highest technical performance for reasonable money (i.e. £10k(ish) rather than cost no object £100k+(ish)) tend to use good but not premium audiophile drivers likely reflecting that with good design driver deficiencies are not what limits the perceived performance at reasonable(ish) price points.
I was thinking not going beyond the entry level designs offered by the major suppliers to the DIY community.
The more advanced ranges with exotic materials and state of the art cone motor, surround not currently considered for the design.
Also, If we did this it would be sensible to factor in the purchase an Augerpro waveguide ?
The more advanced ranges with exotic materials and state of the art cone motor, surround not currently considered for the design.
Also, If we did this it would be sensible to factor in the purchase an Augerpro waveguide ?
The regular host of our local HiFi club has a pair of TriTrix Towers as his main speakers. In spite of the modest cost of the kit, they easily stand their ground against various speakers that we have auditioned. Their main characteristic (that surprised me) was dynamic range. They maintain their coherence at SPL levels where other speakers become shouty.
I've read several posts so far referencing crossover design. I'm curious if you feel there are tricks to it? Picking out a smoother driver makes the xover easy, no? Is there a particular mindset to using inexpensive drivers, or is the trick to select inexpensive drivers that are unusually good already?
The trick is picking drivers that work well with the other drivers chosen. Good design these days would tend to involve active crossovers unless the objectives for the speaker override it. Smoothness is less important with active crossovers although still desirable.
In my opinion, this is the way to achieve more for less. For example, there are some really good Dayton Audio and SB Acoustic drivers that offer a lot of performance for the price. Also, maybe some HiVi, Silver Flute, etc.
Another advantage to smooth and extended frequency response, other than making the crossover easier, is it may make the net cost less. I was recently reading about a budget driver (about $40 at the time) and the person commented that it really needed a notch filter to be adequate. But the cost of the notch filter was probably $10-$15, but at $55 there were simply better drivers to chose from. This isn't going to be true for a $200 Scan-speak/Seas/etc. driver, where an extra $15 isn't getting you to the next level of quality.
Revel Performa3 F206 - $1,350 each. Uses $300 of SB Acoustic drivers available at Madisound.
Barefoot Footprint01 - $4,500 a pair. Uses $170 of Dayton and Peerless drivers available at Parts Express, per speaker. However, this one is Active and has DSP going on that would be harder for a DIY to execute.
Barefoot Footprint01 - $4,500 a pair. Uses $170 of Dayton and Peerless drivers available at Parts Express, per speaker. However, this one is Active and has DSP going on that would be harder for a DIY to execute.
For Erik,
I think many of the 80 speakers that we enjoyed were low tech compared to modern entry series drivers. Lots of stamped frames and small magnets.
Some of the UK makes were basic, but it didn't stop them selling well. Maybe HiFi mags of the time did their bit to push sales as well.
The Uluwatu design linked to would definitely offer a lot, if it fits in with your room size.
Mr Gravesen's site has some SB Acoustics and ScanSpeak designs showing how well their entry level drivers perform when mounted in good cabinets, with crossovers that are designed and validated by being listened too. Please see the following examples.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-861-PFCR.htm
or
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Discovery-861.htm
and
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Discovery-18W-mkII.htm
I think many of the 80 speakers that we enjoyed were low tech compared to modern entry series drivers. Lots of stamped frames and small magnets.
Some of the UK makes were basic, but it didn't stop them selling well. Maybe HiFi mags of the time did their bit to push sales as well.
The Uluwatu design linked to would definitely offer a lot, if it fits in with your room size.
Mr Gravesen's site has some SB Acoustics and ScanSpeak designs showing how well their entry level drivers perform when mounted in good cabinets, with crossovers that are designed and validated by being listened too. Please see the following examples.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-861-PFCR.htm
or
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Discovery-861.htm
and
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Discovery-18W-mkII.htm
Not entirely true, but it was initially. I was told Harman had SB make the drivers for the Revel lineup initially, then cut out the SB middle man by copying them to their standards and having them made in house. They are similar to SB, but not quite the same any longer.