Thanks, I was not aware of all these new models...
But I think I will wait for the super new one inch to change my hf108r 😁
But I think I will wait for the super new one inch to change my hf108r 😁
Hi. Does anyone know what does RCF meant by direct driver Kapton for the their voice coil former? https://www.rcf.it/en/products/product-detail/ndt995
Is it the same as the TAD ‘the Direct Power Coupling technology which allows direct connection from the speaker wire to the Diaphragm thereby reducing unwanted resonance caused by AC current interference.’?
Is it the same as the TAD ‘the Direct Power Coupling technology which allows direct connection from the speaker wire to the Diaphragm thereby reducing unwanted resonance caused by AC current interference.’?
Hello,
Thanks to a new french horn / acoustics company, I had the chance to compare and try different 1 inch compression drivers.
The company audio horn makes really interesting horns, they can be 3D printed or carved in wood thanks to CNC. I was interested in the X-shape horns which look like modern JBL horns and are true CD horns.
I sent him all my compression drivers and he kindly tested them on his 33cm horn, the X33. This can load as low as 1000hz so it is interesting to test the limits in terms of distortion.
CDs I sent are :
Faital HF108R which was the one I was using on STH100 horn from 1800hz
Faital HF10AK
BMS 4552ND to check how they would compared to the new 5530 ND
He had already tested the famous 18S 1095N and the 5530 ND
All the Data can be found here :
https://audiohorn.net/test/compression-driver/1inch/
As this is a CD horn, the raw response is a bell. All the CDs have to be EQed and the SPL adjusted at the same level to have realistic comparison.
Then the frequency response will be more interesting to look at by looking at the polars.
Other data which is a really good indication is the distortion plots.
Then of course the behavior in terms of time, the decay.
18s 1095N
5530nd
45552
The results speak almost by themselves :
-hf10AK has a lot of problems below 2khz, so this one is not really worth
-HF108R is ok if you don’t go too low, the highs are not as clean as BMS or 18s products
-18s 1095N is the best 1 inch CD you can find if you want to play as low as 1000hz : distortion levels are the lowest measured
-BMS 5530nd is cheaper and better than older BMS 4552ND
My conclusion was that I sold my HF108R and STH100 and bought a couple of BMS 5530ND and a couple of X25 horns as I like to go 3 way.
Then I did my own measurements and tunings.
I will provide the data on my google drive, the measurements are of course not as good as the professional ones but they give a really good idea of what is going on.
When my friend who owns the HF10AK was here for the summer holidays we immediately confirmed that the hf10ak is not good below 2khz, this you can measure and hear by yourself. I think he will get a pair of 1095N on his X-shape X33 as he is doing a 2 way speaker with a 12” Faital speaker and crossing at 1000hz is the least bad option.
So now let’s go back to my 5530nd and Audiohorn X25 :
To finish the Horn you need to add roundovers to avoid midrange narrowing, otherwise the directivity control will not go as low as possible.
it is easy to check that the raw response is a bell and that break up occurs soooooo late
it is easy to use REW auto EQ at the lowest level of the bell
this is exported to Rephase
Convolution filter is generated, here LR48
Then it is measured, I even tried to make my own polar by making a 1m80 stand with a turntable base.
I am happy to see that I almost get the same as the manufacturer, I only have a problem at 18khz (the polar loses a bit of control) which I am sure is not audible.
I am also trying to use my PHL 1140 in a cardioid with a front waveguide. Then I did the polar of both speakers playing down to 400hz. With the gating at 3.3ms I could not do better.
Now the subjective listening.
It is really precise and clear. Cymbals hits but without distortion. thanks to this 90° CD horn staging and ambiance in my semi treated room is really good. It sounds a little bit like my EQed Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. HF108R was good but it has a little sense of smoothed sound. You have more crisp and sparkle now.
I am very happy to recommend BMS 5530ND and Audiohorn X-Shape Horns.
My personal data are joined and here is the raw data from rew
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AWzq2e-I7cqv6NSKWMpLhJUMNxPU30GH?usp=sharing
Thanks to a new french horn / acoustics company, I had the chance to compare and try different 1 inch compression drivers.
The company audio horn makes really interesting horns, they can be 3D printed or carved in wood thanks to CNC. I was interested in the X-shape horns which look like modern JBL horns and are true CD horns.
I sent him all my compression drivers and he kindly tested them on his 33cm horn, the X33. This can load as low as 1000hz so it is interesting to test the limits in terms of distortion.
CDs I sent are :
Faital HF108R which was the one I was using on STH100 horn from 1800hz
Faital HF10AK
BMS 4552ND to check how they would compared to the new 5530 ND
He had already tested the famous 18S 1095N and the 5530 ND
All the Data can be found here :
https://audiohorn.net/test/compression-driver/1inch/
As this is a CD horn, the raw response is a bell. All the CDs have to be EQed and the SPL adjusted at the same level to have realistic comparison.
Then the frequency response will be more interesting to look at by looking at the polars.
Other data which is a really good indication is the distortion plots.
Then of course the behavior in terms of time, the decay.
18s 1095N
5530nd
45552
The results speak almost by themselves :
-hf10AK has a lot of problems below 2khz, so this one is not really worth
-HF108R is ok if you don’t go too low, the highs are not as clean as BMS or 18s products
-18s 1095N is the best 1 inch CD you can find if you want to play as low as 1000hz : distortion levels are the lowest measured
-BMS 5530nd is cheaper and better than older BMS 4552ND
My conclusion was that I sold my HF108R and STH100 and bought a couple of BMS 5530ND and a couple of X25 horns as I like to go 3 way.
Then I did my own measurements and tunings.
I will provide the data on my google drive, the measurements are of course not as good as the professional ones but they give a really good idea of what is going on.
When my friend who owns the HF10AK was here for the summer holidays we immediately confirmed that the hf10ak is not good below 2khz, this you can measure and hear by yourself. I think he will get a pair of 1095N on his X-shape X33 as he is doing a 2 way speaker with a 12” Faital speaker and crossing at 1000hz is the least bad option.
So now let’s go back to my 5530nd and Audiohorn X25 :
To finish the Horn you need to add roundovers to avoid midrange narrowing, otherwise the directivity control will not go as low as possible.
it is easy to check that the raw response is a bell and that break up occurs soooooo late
it is easy to use REW auto EQ at the lowest level of the bell
this is exported to Rephase
Convolution filter is generated, here LR48
Then it is measured, I even tried to make my own polar by making a 1m80 stand with a turntable base.
I am happy to see that I almost get the same as the manufacturer, I only have a problem at 18khz (the polar loses a bit of control) which I am sure is not audible.
I am also trying to use my PHL 1140 in a cardioid with a front waveguide. Then I did the polar of both speakers playing down to 400hz. With the gating at 3.3ms I could not do better.
Now the subjective listening.
It is really precise and clear. Cymbals hits but without distortion. thanks to this 90° CD horn staging and ambiance in my semi treated room is really good. It sounds a little bit like my EQed Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. HF108R was good but it has a little sense of smoothed sound. You have more crisp and sparkle now.
I am very happy to recommend BMS 5530ND and Audiohorn X-Shape Horns.
My personal data are joined and here is the raw data from rew
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AWzq2e-I7cqv6NSKWMpLhJUMNxPU30GH?usp=sharing
Attachments
The 5530 sounds virtually identical to the 4552ndHello,
Thanks to a new french horn / acoustics company, I had the chance to compare and try different 1 inch compression drivers.
The company audio horn makes really interesting horns, they can be 3D printed or carved in wood thanks to CNC. I was interested in the X-shape horns which look like modern JBL horns and are true CD horns.
I sent him all my compression drivers and he kindly tested them on his 33cm horn, the X33. This can load as low as 1000hz so it is interesting to test the limits in terms of distortion.
CDs I sent are :
Faital HF108R which was the one I was using on STH100 horn from 1800hz
Faital HF10AK
BMS 4552ND to check how they would compared to the new 5530 ND
He had already tested the famous 18S 1095N and the 5530 ND
All the Data can be found here :
https://audiohorn.net/test/compression-driver/1inch/
As this is a CD horn, the raw response is a bell. All the CDs have to be EQed and the SPL adjusted at the same level to have realistic comparison.
Then the frequency response will be more interesting to look at by looking at the polars.
Other data which is a really good indication is the distortion plots.
Then of course the behavior in terms of time, the decay.
18s 1095N
5530nd
45552
The results speak almost by themselves :
-hf10AK has a lot of problems below 2khz, so this one is not really worth
-HF108R is ok if you don’t go too low, the highs are not as clean as BMS or 18s products
-18s 1095N is the best 1 inch CD you can find if you want to play as low as 1000hz : distortion levels are the lowest measured
-BMS 5530nd is cheaper and better than older BMS 4552ND
My conclusion was that I sold my HF108R and STH100 and bought a couple of BMS 5530ND and a couple of X25 horns as I like to go 3 way.
Then I did my own measurements and tunings.
I will provide the data on my google drive, the measurements are of course not as good as the professional ones but they give a really good idea of what is going on.
When my friend who owns the HF10AK was here for the summer holidays we immediately confirmed that the hf10ak is not good below 2khz, this you can measure and hear by yourself. I think he will get a pair of 1095N on his X-shape X33 as he is doing a 2 way speaker with a 12” Faital speaker and crossing at 1000hz is the least bad option.
So now let’s go back to my 5530nd and Audiohorn X25 :
To finish the Horn you need to add roundovers to avoid midrange narrowing, otherwise the directivity control will not go as low as possible.
it is easy to check that the raw response is a bell and that break up occurs soooooo late
it is easy to use REW auto EQ at the lowest level of the bell
this is exported to Rephase
Convolution filter is generated, here LR48
Then it is measured, I even tried to make my own polar by making a 1m80 stand with a turntable base.
I am happy to see that I almost get the same as the manufacturer, I only have a problem at 18khz (the polar loses a bit of control) which I am sure is not audible.
I am also trying to use my PHL 1140 in a cardioid with a front waveguide. Then I did the polar of both speakers playing down to 400hz. With the gating at 3.3ms I could not do better.
Now the subjective listening.
It is really precise and clear. Cymbals hits but without distortion. thanks to this 90° CD horn staging and ambiance in my semi treated room is really good. It sounds a little bit like my EQed Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. HF108R was good but it has a little sense of smoothed sound. You have more crisp and sparkle now.
I am very happy to recommend BMS 5530ND and Audiohorn X-Shape Horns.
My personal data are joined and here is the raw data from rew
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AWzq2e-I7cqv6NSKWMpLhJUMNxPU30GH?usp=sharing
I have both the only thing about the 5530 is that if you try and cross it below 1200 like at 1000 and try and squeak a little bit lower it will do it. It will actually go down to about 800 but below 1200. If you push it really hard, the driver gives up and the diaphragm freaks out. But you have to really be gettin on it hard. Like balls to the wall loud before any of that happens.
The 4552 I’ve crossed at 800 with 125 W and had zero issues
Even though they’re recommended crossover is 1200 or 1000 that’s a second order recommendation so a fourth order or a eighth order at 800 should be fine
The little 5530 is a ******* fantastic sounding driver
I’m using mine right now and I absolutely love the way they sound
That said I can bolt on my 4552 and I don’t have to re-tune anything it literally works the same I mean, yeah there’s small tiny changes, but you would have tiny changes by swapping drivers with the same driver
A pitty he didn't test DE360 - best behaviour at high frequencies I know.
I still have a few different compression drivers around for testing, I will ask if he also wants to measure them.
I still have a few different compression drivers around for testing, I will ask if he also wants to measure them.
I wish there was a 1” beryllium driver that wasn’t the size of a coffee can and impossible to find.
I wonder if a beryllium ring driver would work. I’m not a horn expert but I think in neo it probably wouldn’t play very low. But with some of the crazy engineering I’m seeing with B&C and JBl someone maybe could do it.
I wonder if a beryllium ring driver would work. I’m not a horn expert but I think in neo it probably wouldn’t play very low. But with some of the crazy engineering I’m seeing with B&C and JBl someone maybe could do it.
Beryllium production is increasing but the audiophile market being a niche, it is almost impossible to get brand new beryllium compression driver. For example latest 18 sound beryllium cd is unavailable from tlhp.
And the latest prices were as insane as vintage TAD products.
Now, as we get older, do we really need this in the upper frequency?
Were these products tested and compared in the very same conditions to other products?
Talking about small B&C drivers, I think the distortion profile would not be that good below 2khz, if you look at test bench it does not provide data below.
But it is always good to have someone from here post results...
And the latest prices were as insane as vintage TAD products.
Now, as we get older, do we really need this in the upper frequency?
Were these products tested and compared in the very same conditions to other products?
Talking about small B&C drivers, I think the distortion profile would not be that good below 2khz, if you look at test bench it does not provide data below.
But it is always good to have someone from here post results...
The current issue is largely because Materion cancelled production of some foil thicknesses last year. So it is a supply issue from one source really.
And yes the audio market is small compared to radiology and other markets ehrn it comes to Be.
The TAD products are still as available as thry were. Using a different Beryllium supplier and mfg. process.
Radian 475bePB? Not that it is worth the expense if one compares it to the 475PB, both were measured by voice coil mag.
If you are looking for something a little smaller and lightweight. Slaughter some VUE AL-4 or similar, for they're 1" exit compression driver.
Coffee can? Assume you are referring to TAD, due to the size, weight and alnico motor design with internal throat.
If you are in the US as your profile says, Pro audio design will be the easiest source.
@Hornstudio Is the person to contact in Europe.
🙂
I heard a rumor the 2001s could still be had BNIB …. Is that true ? I’ll reach out to that guy you posted .. thanks !! 🙏
That VUE driver !! You’ve peaked my curiosity, big time!!!
Is there a model number of that driver that I can search for someone that has slaughtered a set? Do they make their own drivers? This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. Perhaps a email to truxtent …..
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My only experience of Be diaphragms was owning a nice pair of JBL2435Be 1.5" drivers.
Current spec Vitavox S2s were a very nice step up for me.
Much faster response and tonally more to my liking.
I'm sure the Be and other TAD quailties make them great.
Current spec Vitavox S2s were a very nice step up for me.
Much faster response and tonally more to my liking.
I'm sure the Be and other TAD quailties make them great.
Ahh the 2435be yes i’ve been looking at that
I have a 1.5” horn that I made for some D2 430 H drivers and I like them a lot , although that driver plays monsterably loud from 400-4000 above 4K it plays everything but the tuning has to be super exact or 10k is fatiguing…. It sorta has the sound of 10 tweeters if that makes sense.
I was thinking a single large be diaphragm but have been told neo on be doesn’t want to play very low, so it’s pointless to use a 1.5” and to stick with a 1”
There isn’t any 1” drivers that aren’t ginormous and the radian is a 1.4 inch
I wonder if a 1.4” be neo driver would work better in the LF if you drilled a hole in the back cap to lower the FS….
But that’s a pretty expensive test….
If someone had a 2435 Be or something and an extra cap I would love to get some measurements.
It wouldn’t be hard to isolate the rear compression driver from the listening space and cabinet
I have a 1.5” horn that I made for some D2 430 H drivers and I like them a lot , although that driver plays monsterably loud from 400-4000 above 4K it plays everything but the tuning has to be super exact or 10k is fatiguing…. It sorta has the sound of 10 tweeters if that makes sense.
I was thinking a single large be diaphragm but have been told neo on be doesn’t want to play very low, so it’s pointless to use a 1.5” and to stick with a 1”
There isn’t any 1” drivers that aren’t ginormous and the radian is a 1.4 inch
I wonder if a 1.4” be neo driver would work better in the LF if you drilled a hole in the back cap to lower the FS….
But that’s a pretty expensive test….
If someone had a 2435 Be or something and an extra cap I would love to get some measurements.
It wouldn’t be hard to isolate the rear compression driver from the listening space and cabinet
TD-2001 has been out of production for years.
But, TD-2002 is even better in all respects, and still available new.
Oh, dear. How low have we sunk (pun intended).
A horn ONLY loading down to 1000Hz is puny, and - combined with the typical modern drivers - only allows the combination to work well as a tweeter >2kHz.
The whole magic of the midrange is lost... sadly.
An old-school large format driver on a horn that loads down to 300Hz is soooo much better, it's not even funny.
I would then also recommend a 1.4" driver like the HF146. For the horn, the XT1464.
This combination plays quite reliably from 600 Hz.
This combination plays quite reliably from 600 Hz.
Direct from TAD? not for us diy'ers who wants a pair.
If you get a large enough purchase quantity through a manufacturer, it might be possible. TAD has made runs of obsolete drivers in the past on request for large orders.
If you are after TD-2001's specifically, the replacement diaphragms are still available new.
And both the mentioned vendors along with others will change the diaphragms for you and make sure they are to spec. if desired.
Currently available from TAD is the ET-703A (reintroduced recently).
TD-4001.
TD-2002.
The 2002 is a newer and improved design, that outperforms the TD-2001.
That would be the direction i would go in that specific case,
The 2001 has a cavity resonance ca 1,7khz, as has been shown on several measurements, also mentioned in the AES paper from 1978 by Locanthi and Kinoshita. And the top octave is not as well behaved. The 2002 also has a different phase plug design etc.
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conventions/?elib=2932
VUE Audiotechnik, PA manufacturer.
No i do not have the model number.
They are using Materion/Truextent beryllium foil diaphragms.
And the drivers are not manufactured in-house.
Do not know the 1"'s origin.
Its a 1" exit, 34mm voice coil, small format compression driver with a shallow throat. 16ohm nominal.
Will not go as low as some other 1" i assume judging by the available info.
"They're" large format compression drivers are easily recognizable as rebranded Radians, possibly some other changes but not likely.
Similar to the Augspruger GAH4K-B rebranded Radians.
They also have a beryllium dome tweeter, and a 3,5" coax with a 1" beryllium diaphragm in they're E-series speakers (pricing is not bad even).
Sorry i do not have more information on the 1" at this time.
https://vue-audiotechnik.com/products/al-4-subcompact/
Look up the measurements available on audioheritage.org. on different JBL horns/WG's.
Some were done by people that are active members on here too.
The attachments i added has the JBL EDS sheet, and there is a more in depth insight from Doug Button in the last document.
You will see from the cutout that the 2435H/435 uses a totally different phase plug design, compared to the 245x , 476MG/BE's Coherent wave phase plug.
It was worked on by Doug Button, following along the lines of his designs.
It was designed to give 'pistonic' output up to 15khz.
Dropping the diamond pattern surround, and earlier phase plug designs, to prioritize the range it does well
Optimized for line arrays, small format, light weight, ferrofluid for increased cooling, and
It is also a very efficient driver in the mid range. But the top end needs a lot of EQ, and/or a narrowing horn to make it 'flat' to 20khz.