I'm building a new studio for myself - I work in the music business... (approximately). I've had built a 4Pi and an Econowave... both to my satisfaction... but I know little about the science...
The new system will be externally crossed over with a 2 x 6 DSP unit, and tri-amplified.
Eminence speakers are available very inexpensively, where I'm at... I want to find the best 12" woofer to put in a sealed cabinet, crossed over around 1.2 KHz to a CD in a 12" SEOS waveguide... a fair bit of real estate is available... so I'm trying to stick with WinISD's default cabinet recommendations, being that it surely knows more than I do, about cabinet optimization.
I modeled every 12" speaker that the Eminence website recommends for sealed boxes, and the Delta 12LFA came through, by far the best -> -3 dB @ 80 Hz in the recommended enclosure (2 cu. ft.)... Attached, you can see simulations of the other Eminence drivers popular with the SEOS guys - the Delta Pro-12A and the Definimax 4012HO - neither models as well as the Delta 12LFA...
So whats not to like about the Delta 12LFA - why is it so suspiciously cheap ($90)? Why should I consider the Delta Pro-12A ($135) or the Definimax 4012HO ($215) over the Delta 12LFA? I'm certainly not trying to scrimp on this expense - I'm going to be spending a lot of time on these...
I'd posted similar questions on the AVS forums, as it seems to be home to all things SEOS - but I didn't get much traction there... trying again here...
Thanks in advance...
The new system will be externally crossed over with a 2 x 6 DSP unit, and tri-amplified.
Eminence speakers are available very inexpensively, where I'm at... I want to find the best 12" woofer to put in a sealed cabinet, crossed over around 1.2 KHz to a CD in a 12" SEOS waveguide... a fair bit of real estate is available... so I'm trying to stick with WinISD's default cabinet recommendations, being that it surely knows more than I do, about cabinet optimization.
I modeled every 12" speaker that the Eminence website recommends for sealed boxes, and the Delta 12LFA came through, by far the best -> -3 dB @ 80 Hz in the recommended enclosure (2 cu. ft.)... Attached, you can see simulations of the other Eminence drivers popular with the SEOS guys - the Delta Pro-12A and the Definimax 4012HO - neither models as well as the Delta 12LFA...
So whats not to like about the Delta 12LFA - why is it so suspiciously cheap ($90)? Why should I consider the Delta Pro-12A ($135) or the Definimax 4012HO ($215) over the Delta 12LFA? I'm certainly not trying to scrimp on this expense - I'm going to be spending a lot of time on these...
I'd posted similar questions on the AVS forums, as it seems to be home to all things SEOS - but I didn't get much traction there... trying again here...
Thanks in advance...
Attachments
With a miniDSP, you could simply use Linkwitz transform down to whatever frequency you want to use subwoofers at and high-pass the woofer there. This will allow you to pick whichever model has the smoothest midrange response - or whatever else you may prioritize, assuming your SPL requirement is satisfied with the driver's excursion limit.
I would like to know what else there is to prioritize. I simply looked at the low frequency extension, as I wanted this to be fully functional as a two way, assisted by subwoofers. How do I judge the performance of a 12" driver in the 200 Hz - 1.2 KHz region? LF extension is indicated by WinISD, but what else is there, that should be considered in this kind of a build? Why are the other Eminence drivers more expensive than the one that measures the best, as far as LF extension is concerned?
Since you are using a subwoofer and miniDSP, the woofer's LF behavior can be shaped to whatever you want. What can not be changed via DSP is it's dispersion in the midrange. You should ideally crossover to the SEOS-12 where the woofer's beamwidth is 90°, IOW, where its 45° off-axis response has fallen of by ~6dB. Doing so at lower/higher frequencies, a hump or pinch will be seen on a polar plot for the system. You then want to look for a woofer with 45° response that extend up to the SEOS-12's recommended XO frequency, which seems to be 950Hz. Sounds kind of low to me for its dimension, probably better to go ~1300Hz. Most Eminence LF drivers have fairly large peaks at their upper limit. While these can be notched via miniDSP, you should look for as similar an on and off-axis response as you can, so the effect stays the same across the polars.
Earl Geddes and Wayne Parnham have both written lots of useful stuff, worth checking out. I've built 3 constant-directivity speakers so far and have greatly benefited from the knowledge these two have shared online.
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Definimax is obviously more expensive for the higher power handling
capability, greater Xmax, shorting rings in the motor (less distortion).
Delta 12LFA has pressed steel, weaker motor, less smooth response.
Delta PRO 12A seems the best overall choice for your needs. Smoother
response with better HF behavior. Qts is lower because of the stronger
motor.
i dont think dispersion in the midrange is much of an issue from one 12" to another.
here is the beta 12-a, 1250khz 12db xo
Gainphile: S15 - Econowave DSP
here is the beta 12-a, 1250khz 12db xo
Gainphile: S15 - Econowave DSP
Study the SPL/freq curve and any distortion measurements you can find with careful consideration to your studio application. Many Eminence 12" speakers are designed for guitar and bass-guitar applications where a rising high frequency SPL provides a desirable "timbre". Piercing for lead guitar or the 5th string on a bass-guitar. ALSO, in a studio you can favor sound quality over max SPL. i.e. A lower Mms from modest Xmax (like 4.8mm) . Building a slightly larger than spec box volume offers Qtc and stuffing tuning options.
Take a close look at:
The Delta Pro 12A reduces Mms to 48 grams with a shorter 4.9mm Xmax as a tech to smoothly extended frequency. F3~100Hz in 1cuft sealed. Designed for PA. Probably the easiest Xover design. Probably best choice if 100Hz F3 works.
The Deltalite-II 2512 Neo-motor reduces Le~0.5mH and with Mms~37 to get good high frequency extension but has some >1Khz peaking. F3~85Hz in 2cuft sealed makes it very popular for HT. Lower F3, but >1Khz peaking needs Xover attention.
I use the Delta Pro 12A only (for both hi-fi and PA).
There is a complete SEOS design for same, including a pre-cut front board for a reasonable price (I bought four).
A friend's PA build, I provided the design and drivers, he chose the cosmetics.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/sub-2way2.jpg
This sounds better than 99% of hi-fi, and plays plenty loud too.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/PatsPA_zps297453f4.jpg
There is a complete SEOS design for same, including a pre-cut front board for a reasonable price (I bought four).
A friend's PA build, I provided the design and drivers, he chose the cosmetics.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/sub-2way2.jpg
This sounds better than 99% of hi-fi, and plays plenty loud too.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/PatsPA_zps297453f4.jpg
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Given that your low end is covered by the Vented Lab12,
I would put Kappalite 3012HO in the 2CuFt sealed box.
But why is this possibly a better choice than 12LFA?
It has very smooth midrange rise all the way to 2.5KHz
Helps that its got a slim cast basket with less surface for
early internal reflections.
You are probably over-worrying mechanical equalization
down to 80 in your simulation, and skewing your choice
toward the higher Qts. You can add series resistance or
dead weight to any low Q speaker and spoil it to be mid
Q, if that's the hump your sim wants to plot flat midbass.
Though the smart way is to enjoy the strong motor and
oversized box. Lacking a significant parasitic hump to
boost the low end flat is not a box mismatch. Use your
DSP to boost the low end. Your real sealed low end is
only limited by XMAX and power compression.
+6 decibels more efficient means 4x greater sound level
before power compression (due to the coil getting hot)
1.4mm more XMAX means it can cross to the sub at a
lower frequency or higher volume without damage.
I would put Kappalite 3012HO in the 2CuFt sealed box.
But why is this possibly a better choice than 12LFA?
It has very smooth midrange rise all the way to 2.5KHz
Helps that its got a slim cast basket with less surface for
early internal reflections.
You are probably over-worrying mechanical equalization
down to 80 in your simulation, and skewing your choice
toward the higher Qts. You can add series resistance or
dead weight to any low Q speaker and spoil it to be mid
Q, if that's the hump your sim wants to plot flat midbass.
Though the smart way is to enjoy the strong motor and
oversized box. Lacking a significant parasitic hump to
boost the low end flat is not a box mismatch. Use your
DSP to boost the low end. Your real sealed low end is
only limited by XMAX and power compression.
+6 decibels more efficient means 4x greater sound level
before power compression (due to the coil getting hot)
1.4mm more XMAX means it can cross to the sub at a
lower frequency or higher volume without damage.
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I found Eminence speakers need a lot of power to drive them to be loud enough.
A better solution would be Fane Sovereign 12-250TC
A better solution would be Fane Sovereign 12-250TC
I was also looking for a woofer to go with my seos12 and am still really hung up on getting the 2512 II. I wanted to look at the 3012HO and LF, but have not seen anyone make a passive crossover for use with the seos12/dna360(de250).
The 3012LF is probably closer to the 2512 II in bass output. 4012 just seemed a little overkill.
My current CV woofer is almost perfect for what I want in sealed bass down to 80, but I am not good enough at passive crossover design to fix the big hump at 1.7khz.
I also don't need high power handling. I honestly think anything over 300 watts is overkill for me.
Curious to see what you buy and build...
I noticed diysoundgroup.com is re-doing the website.
I am hoping they get back a 12" sealed design with baffle...
At a minimum I need a cnc baffle...
As far as best, I was looking at the 4012 due to having lower distortion from having a shorting ring. Jeff Bagby made a good point that I probably won't hear a difference.
2512 II was most realistic choice based on price, and sealed to 80 hz...
Just about every other woofer I looked at needed eq or bass boost.
Most of the low mms woofers that are "flatter" up high are not going to get to 80 Hz sealed without eq. Sort of a compromise...
This includes the delta pro 12a.
You said Eminence, so I won't mention the other woofers I have been looking at...
The 3012LF is probably closer to the 2512 II in bass output. 4012 just seemed a little overkill.
My current CV woofer is almost perfect for what I want in sealed bass down to 80, but I am not good enough at passive crossover design to fix the big hump at 1.7khz.
I also don't need high power handling. I honestly think anything over 300 watts is overkill for me.
Curious to see what you buy and build...
I noticed diysoundgroup.com is re-doing the website.
I am hoping they get back a 12" sealed design with baffle...
At a minimum I need a cnc baffle...
As far as best, I was looking at the 4012 due to having lower distortion from having a shorting ring. Jeff Bagby made a good point that I probably won't hear a difference.
2512 II was most realistic choice based on price, and sealed to 80 hz...
Just about every other woofer I looked at needed eq or bass boost.
Most of the low mms woofers that are "flatter" up high are not going to get to 80 Hz sealed without eq. Sort of a compromise...
This includes the delta pro 12a.
You said Eminence, so I won't mention the other woofers I have been looking at...
For a SEOS-12, did one consider an 4 Ohm woofer?
To avoid some of the down-padding in a passive crossover on the compression driver.
Regarding the recommendations for a 12" woofer for the SEOS 12, which 12" woofer offers a good price-performance ratio?
The 1" compression driver DNA-360 is already a best-performer, but which woofer?
thank you.
To avoid some of the down-padding in a passive crossover on the compression driver.
Regarding the recommendations for a 12" woofer for the SEOS 12, which 12" woofer offers a good price-performance ratio?
The 1" compression driver DNA-360 is already a best-performer, but which woofer?
thank you.
other alternatives
Two more Eminence might have escaped your short list:
Eminence EM12 Legend (clone of ElectroVoice EV12L)
Its also dead ringer for the DeltaPro12A, but with less
voice coil overhang. Brighter, more efficient, less xmax.
Eminence Legend EM-12 12" Bass Guitar Speaker 200W 8 Ohm
Useless guitar oriented spec sheet is short on technical
details, but a visit to Eminence's product page reveals.
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Legend_EM12
Then this clearance oddball looks suspiciously like the
DeltaPro12A, upgraded with a 95oz magnet.
EC-25 12" Cast Frame Professional Woofer 95 oz. Magnet 8 Ohm
Hmmm.... 3 inch coil? Maybe closer to KappaPro than DeltaPro...
I own plenty of DeltaPro12A's. 10 I think, counting 2
that died valiantly after long abuse. Including at least
3 that Eminence built off-label (MCM part number if I
recall). In my case, no measured difference off-label.
No reliability difference. One dead was genuine, one
off-label, and both autopsies looked like years of voice
coil abuse had silently rubbed through. No complaints.
The Deltapro 12A is a bit "Muddy" in the mids unless
you are directly on-axis. I was crossing from 40 to 4K,
which was both too high and low to ask from this driver.
Unfiltered lows I think are what aggravated my failures.
Will run out of xmax before challenging the power limit.
And will cave your chest well before.
All these are outstandingly low Qts. Will never flatten
down to 80 with electrical control so dominating over
the mechanical hump. But thats not a bad thing, it
just means you need some Eq. And you can always
spoil a low Eq with resistance or dead weight if you
are silly enough to prefer mechanical equalization....
Two more Eminence might have escaped your short list:
Eminence EM12 Legend (clone of ElectroVoice EV12L)
Its also dead ringer for the DeltaPro12A, but with less
voice coil overhang. Brighter, more efficient, less xmax.
Eminence Legend EM-12 12" Bass Guitar Speaker 200W 8 Ohm
Useless guitar oriented spec sheet is short on technical
details, but a visit to Eminence's product page reveals.
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Legend_EM12
Then this clearance oddball looks suspiciously like the
DeltaPro12A, upgraded with a 95oz magnet.
EC-25 12" Cast Frame Professional Woofer 95 oz. Magnet 8 Ohm
Hmmm.... 3 inch coil? Maybe closer to KappaPro than DeltaPro...
I own plenty of DeltaPro12A's. 10 I think, counting 2
that died valiantly after long abuse. Including at least
3 that Eminence built off-label (MCM part number if I
recall). In my case, no measured difference off-label.
No reliability difference. One dead was genuine, one
off-label, and both autopsies looked like years of voice
coil abuse had silently rubbed through. No complaints.
The Deltapro 12A is a bit "Muddy" in the mids unless
you are directly on-axis. I was crossing from 40 to 4K,
which was both too high and low to ask from this driver.
Unfiltered lows I think are what aggravated my failures.
Will run out of xmax before challenging the power limit.
And will cave your chest well before.
All these are outstandingly low Qts. Will never flatten
down to 80 with electrical control so dominating over
the mechanical hump. But thats not a bad thing, it
just means you need some Eq. And you can always
spoil a low Eq with resistance or dead weight if you
are silly enough to prefer mechanical equalization....
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Well, I have decided to go with the DeltaliteII-2512, for better or worse. I'm no good at electronics, the crossovers are being built by somebody with lots of experience. They should reach me in about six weeks... more updates, then...
The Definimax 4012HO looks pretty good too.
It also has shorting rings.
It's about twice as much money as the Delta Pro 12A.
It also has shorting rings.
It's about twice as much money as the Delta Pro 12A.
I also like the 2512 because there are quite a few examples built with the seos12, so there is a passive crossover designed and tested... Pretty good FR, too. The crossover is part of the equation as well... Not as many people went with the pro12a and posted results. Keep that into consideration. I have seen quite a few 2512, a faital pro, and the TD series from AE. Along with the 4012, but no posted crossover due to it being designed by Jeff Bagby and sold on diysoundgroup. The 2512 II crossover was designed by Bill Waslo and posted online for all to use privately. Jeff's 4012 design is not on the diysoundgroup website anymore. There is only one 12" woofer design with the seos12 right now (tempest) which is the Delta pro 12a. 😀
Here is a quick link to the original 2512/seos12 thread if you have not already seen it.
SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers
As you can see, the crossover works the same with the delta 12a (different from pro 12a).
I like sealed, so I would choose the 2512. I don't see the design with the seos 12 as being smoother with the delta pro12. Sure, the woofer itself might be a little smoother, but both the 2512 and pro12 with seos12 look good on paper to me. 🙂
I agree that the pro12a is a nice woofer. I am still torn as to which to use (even thought the sealed 2512 is almost perfect for my design parameters)...
Either way, I am really hoping to see your choice and see posted results!!!
Maybe I can be swayed to the pro 12a if your results are a little better than the 2512. 😀
Here is a quick link to the original 2512/seos12 thread if you have not already seen it.
SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers
As you can see, the crossover works the same with the delta 12a (different from pro 12a).
I like sealed, so I would choose the 2512. I don't see the design with the seos 12 as being smoother with the delta pro12. Sure, the woofer itself might be a little smoother, but both the 2512 and pro12 with seos12 look good on paper to me. 🙂
I agree that the pro12a is a nice woofer. I am still torn as to which to use (even thought the sealed 2512 is almost perfect for my design parameters)...
Either way, I am really hoping to see your choice and see posted results!!!
Maybe I can be swayed to the pro 12a if your results are a little better than the 2512. 😀
I'm hoping that the Eminence Delta 12A (not pro version) is good, because I just bought a pair... they happen to fit into some cabs that I already have on hand and that pushed me over the edge for the purchase. Unfortunately the Delta-Pro 12A frame is a bit too large for the existing recess, and it's also about 60% more expensive than the 12A.
I'll be combining these drivers with the 12" conical waveguide from Dayton Audio (NLA I believe) and Selenium D220Ti compression driver.
If anyone's really interested I can measure the distortion and frequency response of the Delta 12A when I get them.
I'll be combining these drivers with the 12" conical waveguide from Dayton Audio (NLA I believe) and Selenium D220Ti compression driver.
If anyone's really interested I can measure the distortion and frequency response of the Delta 12A when I get them.