Hi Everyone,
I've been looking into biamping my system, and the guys on the Pass Labs forum have given me a reasonably clear idea of a circuit for the crossover. My present system uses a diy F5 powering a pair of B&W monitors, which sound great, but for orchestral music I feel it could use more in the bass. I intend to leave the present system as the mid-high part, and to put a pair of woofers/subwoofers in separate cabinets, independently amplified (how is still to be decided...). I imagine a crossover point about 300Hz, although that isn't written in stone, and I am definitely looking for something for music, mostly classical and jazz, not HT, and I don't need bone-crushing SPL. I'd like to go pretty low, but there is no absolute need to be flat to 20Hz.
My problem with the speakers is that since I live in Brazil, and freight and import taxes are beyond anything reasonable (I'll spare you all my rant...) importing woofers is out of the question, so if I'm going to do this I will have to use local products. There's plenty to choose from, but little information as to what would work well in the situation I am looking for. (If I wanted to install them in my car I could get all the advice I could possibly want...) After checking around I have found this driver
Eros Alto-falantes
which is available at a more-or-less reasonable price (there's also a 12" version). It seems to be quite a close match for this one:
Parts-Express.com:*Dayton ST255-8 10" Series II Woofer | woofer st255-8 10" woofer midbass dayton series II series 2 dayton audio dayton loudspeaker
so it's useful as a reference point. Does anyone have any experience of either of these, or if they are plain wrong for my purpose, can anyone give me an example of a US or European driver that would be better, or alternatively more appropriate T-S parameters, so I can continue searching out a Brazilian near-equivalent?
Many thanks for any help.
Cheers
Nigel
I've been looking into biamping my system, and the guys on the Pass Labs forum have given me a reasonably clear idea of a circuit for the crossover. My present system uses a diy F5 powering a pair of B&W monitors, which sound great, but for orchestral music I feel it could use more in the bass. I intend to leave the present system as the mid-high part, and to put a pair of woofers/subwoofers in separate cabinets, independently amplified (how is still to be decided...). I imagine a crossover point about 300Hz, although that isn't written in stone, and I am definitely looking for something for music, mostly classical and jazz, not HT, and I don't need bone-crushing SPL. I'd like to go pretty low, but there is no absolute need to be flat to 20Hz.
My problem with the speakers is that since I live in Brazil, and freight and import taxes are beyond anything reasonable (I'll spare you all my rant...) importing woofers is out of the question, so if I'm going to do this I will have to use local products. There's plenty to choose from, but little information as to what would work well in the situation I am looking for. (If I wanted to install them in my car I could get all the advice I could possibly want...) After checking around I have found this driver
Eros Alto-falantes
which is available at a more-or-less reasonable price (there's also a 12" version). It seems to be quite a close match for this one:
Parts-Express.com:*Dayton ST255-8 10" Series II Woofer | woofer st255-8 10" woofer midbass dayton series II series 2 dayton audio dayton loudspeaker
so it's useful as a reference point. Does anyone have any experience of either of these, or if they are plain wrong for my purpose, can anyone give me an example of a US or European driver that would be better, or alternatively more appropriate T-S parameters, so I can continue searching out a Brazilian near-equivalent?
Many thanks for any help.
Cheers
Nigel
Brazilian Woofers
Always liked what I see from Selenium (but have not used).
Out of the blue, someone who does not diy thru these forums remarked how woofers/drivers from Brazilian are good quality. He did not know the brands tho.
Always liked what I see from Selenium (but have not used).
Out of the blue, someone who does not diy thru these forums remarked how woofers/drivers from Brazilian are good quality. He did not know the brands tho.
Some car woofers/sub-woofers work really well.
As a starting point why not look for a driver with an Fs of 25 or lower and a Qts of around 0.33/0.42 which should work in a sealed box with reasonable efficiency.
I thought Bravox were made in Brazil.
Also i would go for a woofer double the diameter of the midrange driver so if the B&W has a 6 inch diver I'd use a 12inch woofer
As a starting point why not look for a driver with an Fs of 25 or lower and a Qts of around 0.33/0.42 which should work in a sealed box with reasonable efficiency.
I thought Bravox were made in Brazil.
Also i would go for a woofer double the diameter of the midrange driver so if the B&W has a 6 inch diver I'd use a 12inch woofer
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, Selenium and Bravox are made in Brazil, but (at least so far) I haven't found anything that looks "right", although I spent some time on their websites (In fact Selenium would be my first choice, since they have a very good rep, and I know where I can get my ahnds on them at a fair price. I'm quite happy to move up to 12", if I can find the right driver). The Selenium woofers I've looked at all seem to be designed for PA work, and have higher Fs, for instance at 50Hz; the best I could see is this one:
http://www.selenium.com.br/site/assets/produtos/50_pdfManual.pdf
In the case of Bravox they are all car audio drivers, which I am not against on principle, but am concerned won''t work so well for what I want. There is this, for instance,
Bravox
although this is likely outside my budget.
With either Bravox or Selenium it would help if anyone had model numbers, since I am not really sure what I ought to be looking for. Failing that, some other hypothetical T-S parameters would help narrow it down. (Qts of around
0.33/0.42 as moondog55 suggested is a good starting point - how about Qms/Qts or Vas, and so forth?)
Noone commented yet on the Eros driver I posted a link to. Should I read silene as meaning no-one is impressed? (Qts is about where moondog55 suggested at 0.376, but it's a 10" driver. It's 12" big brother has Qts=0.488...) Also, anything that helps with the idea of using a car woofer/subwoofer would be a help, because there is a HUGE selection available, although many of them would have to be hidden from view on account of WAF...
Well, as I said before all help is much appreciated.
Cheers
Nigel
Thanks for all the replies. Yes, Selenium and Bravox are made in Brazil, but (at least so far) I haven't found anything that looks "right", although I spent some time on their websites (In fact Selenium would be my first choice, since they have a very good rep, and I know where I can get my ahnds on them at a fair price. I'm quite happy to move up to 12", if I can find the right driver). The Selenium woofers I've looked at all seem to be designed for PA work, and have higher Fs, for instance at 50Hz; the best I could see is this one:
http://www.selenium.com.br/site/assets/produtos/50_pdfManual.pdf
In the case of Bravox they are all car audio drivers, which I am not against on principle, but am concerned won''t work so well for what I want. There is this, for instance,
Bravox
although this is likely outside my budget.
With either Bravox or Selenium it would help if anyone had model numbers, since I am not really sure what I ought to be looking for. Failing that, some other hypothetical T-S parameters would help narrow it down. (Qts of around
0.33/0.42 as moondog55 suggested is a good starting point - how about Qms/Qts or Vas, and so forth?)
Noone commented yet on the Eros driver I posted a link to. Should I read silene as meaning no-one is impressed? (Qts is about where moondog55 suggested at 0.376, but it's a 10" driver. It's 12" big brother has Qts=0.488...) Also, anything that helps with the idea of using a car woofer/subwoofer would be a help, because there is a HUGE selection available, although many of them would have to be hidden from view on account of WAF...
Well, as I said before all help is much appreciated.
Cheers
Nigel
Hi Everyone,
I've managed to find some info about some woofers by NAR audio, which appear to be closer to what I am looking for. Both are 12", although they have some 10" models also. (I probably can't get these locally, but I can mail-order from within Brazil, which is nearly as good...)
Specs on the 12SW-3 (two voice coil 2x6R, a little pricy...)
Qts=0.318, Qes=0.347, Qms=3.908, Vas=175.5l, Fs=23.4Hz, Xmax=13mm
Specs on the 12SW-2 (one voice coil 4R...)
Qts=0.516, Qes=0.592, Qms=4.024, Vas=190l, Fs=23.8Hz, Xmax=7.5mm
These look more-or-less what moondog55 was suggesting below. Any thoughts? (I am sort of hoping the cheaper one looks good, but somehow I know it is unlikely....;-))
If anyone thinks the 10" speakers are up to the job I can post the T-S.
(I actually found a link (in portuguese) to a diy folded transmission line using the 10" 10SW-3, which wouldn't be out of the question as far as WAF goes).
Thanks for any help
Nigel
I've managed to find some info about some woofers by NAR audio, which appear to be closer to what I am looking for. Both are 12", although they have some 10" models also. (I probably can't get these locally, but I can mail-order from within Brazil, which is nearly as good...)
Specs on the 12SW-3 (two voice coil 2x6R, a little pricy...)
Qts=0.318, Qes=0.347, Qms=3.908, Vas=175.5l, Fs=23.4Hz, Xmax=13mm
Specs on the 12SW-2 (one voice coil 4R...)
Qts=0.516, Qes=0.592, Qms=4.024, Vas=190l, Fs=23.8Hz, Xmax=7.5mm
These look more-or-less what moondog55 was suggesting below. Any thoughts? (I am sort of hoping the cheaper one looks good, but somehow I know it is unlikely....;-))
If anyone thinks the 10" speakers are up to the job I can post the T-S.
(I actually found a link (in portuguese) to a diy folded transmission line using the 10" 10SW-3, which wouldn't be out of the question as far as WAF goes).
Thanks for any help
Nigel
Hi Jerrand,
Our last posts crossed... Your link gave me several woofers, but I presume you meant the 12W1A, right? I don't know how I missed that one... Do you know anyone who's used it? How about the NAR drivers I mentioned above?
Cheers
Nigel
Nigel, I haven't used any of them before, i usually stick to the Imported stuff !!! But the customs here are way to abusive !!! The solution i have found is to go Car Audio for my DiY setups !!! I just spoke to the guys at Partsexpress and they said that they no longer ship to brazil, because the customers we're sending the items back once they we're charged customs fees, wich now sucks for the rest of us !!!
Down here is just so hard to find this kind of stuff, that i gave up and started using car audio instead ! And i'm really happy with the results, never had them tested professionally, but for my listening they are more than okay !!!
Im actually shopping for speakers for a 3-way+sub tower speaker !!! Haven't found anything specific for house use, so once again i'm going after car audio !!! Do you live in Brasilia too ? I live in Lago Sul, you probably do too, right?
Down here is just so hard to find this kind of stuff, that i gave up and started using car audio instead ! And i'm really happy with the results, never had them tested professionally, but for my listening they are more than okay !!!
Im actually shopping for speakers for a 3-way+sub tower speaker !!! Haven't found anything specific for house use, so once again i'm going after car audio !!! Do you live in Brasilia too ? I live in Lago Sul, you probably do too, right?
Hi Jerrand,
I've spent a few hours today reading up on a diy transmission line using the NAR driver I mentioned above. Here's the link if you're interested:
DiyAudio.com.br: Resultados da pesquisa NAR
It's the first project on the page - I'm quite keen on giving this a go, if my wife will let me, but I'd like another opinion on whether it's likely to be good for the sort of stuff I listen to. (Mostly classical, orchestral and chamber, some opera, and some jazz.)....
By the way, if you're going to do a tower you might want to look at the Akron drivers - Brazilian made and apparently pretty good, from the little I've seen about them. Link is
AKRONAUDIOTEC - Arte e Design em Áudio
(although they don't have any 10" or 12" offerings...)
What car audio stuff have you had good luck with? I'm quite happy to try car audio stuff if someone can give me info about what works well in a residential system.
I hadn't noticed that you're in Brasilia too. I'm in Asa Norte - if you send me email or a PM we should have a beer sometime after the holidays and swap diy stories.
Cheers
Nigel
Hi Nigel, at this stage all I can suggest is downloading a box program and punching in the numbers, a lot will depend on the integration and at this stage i have to confess my preference for cheap Behringer CX 2400 if this is to be used below 200Hertz and Bi-amping and i find integration is much easier at 150 or lower.
The TS parameters don't tell the whole story, a waterfall plot or Frequency response graph really helps
The TS parameters don't tell the whole story, a waterfall plot or Frequency response graph really helps
Thanks for the help, everyone. I'll give it all some thought over the holidays and will post later.
Hope everyone has a good holiday season.
Cheers
Nigel
Hope everyone has a good holiday season.
Cheers
Nigel
Nigel, you're looking into building just a sub right? I have a MTX car sub running at 8ohms, powered by a Pioneer receiver, wich is putting out 10% of what the sub is capable of handling, but it sounds pretty good to me, its a 10" sub, built in a kind of transmission cabinet!!!
My center chanel its made with a Alpine 4" component set, that has 2 4" midrange drivers, 2 tweeters and 2 crossovers !!! For my listening they sound pretty good and accurate !!!
My front channels are Sony 6 1/2 coaxial speakers, their top of the line model, mounted on a JBL Bookshelf cabinet, they can handle amazing power, its unbeleivable !!! And they sound really nice all around !!! My rear chanels are sony 5 1/4 coaxial car speakers, on a cabinet that i built !!! They are ok on the rear channel, i have to do some testing to see what's going on !!! rsrsrs
But all around my home system sounds really nice to me, almost no distortion, high fidelity, and accurate all around !!! (this is my noob opinion, haven't tested any of them to tell you with 100% of certainty that they are amazing for real) LOL !!!!
My center chanel its made with a Alpine 4" component set, that has 2 4" midrange drivers, 2 tweeters and 2 crossovers !!! For my listening they sound pretty good and accurate !!!
My front channels are Sony 6 1/2 coaxial speakers, their top of the line model, mounted on a JBL Bookshelf cabinet, they can handle amazing power, its unbeleivable !!! And they sound really nice all around !!! My rear chanels are sony 5 1/4 coaxial car speakers, on a cabinet that i built !!! They are ok on the rear channel, i have to do some testing to see what's going on !!! rsrsrs
But all around my home system sounds really nice to me, almost no distortion, high fidelity, and accurate all around !!! (this is my noob opinion, haven't tested any of them to tell you with 100% of certainty that they are amazing for real) LOL !!!!
Nigel, today im going to SIA, to a big car audio store to see if i can find something for my tower, if have some free time, i can introduce you to the owner and you can see the 30+ sub selection that he has !!! My phone is 84012546 or 81549160, feel free to call me anytime !!! Its 9am now and i'm leaving in about 40-50 minutes, but i'll be there for a long time triyng to decide what would be my best option ! Later !
Hi Jerrand,
Just back from the an internet-less holiday with wife's family, so I'm afraid I only just saw your last messages. I'll be in touch by phone some time soon.
Meanwhile, what model of MTX sub and sony co-axials? (I can google them if you send me a model number...) I've often wondered about the coaxials you see everywhere...
Cheers
Nigel
Hey Nigel, no problem, how was christmas ?
So now i've changed my plans around, i was going to by two 2-way 6" 1/2 kits from Beyma to build my 3 way system, but i decided to go with some JVC Aramid/carbon speakers, 2 2-ways and 2 coaxial !!! I was building the box out of 20mm Naval Plywood, i was 90% finished on the first cabinet, when i tested the everything, sounded not good, after many tests i found out that the duct was to small !
So i scraped everything and bought a finished MDF and changed the mesurements to include a subwoofer on the side !!!
Here are the speakers i bought :
2-way JVC CS-FS6 (email Jvc asking for the Thiele Small parameters)
2-WAY COAXIAL CS-FX602
Subwoofer Pioneer TS-W257D4
and this is for a center chanel:
Pioneer TS-D1320C
The coaxials that i already use are these:
Fronts = Sony XS-GTX1740C
Rear = Sony XS-GTX1340C
I really wish i could get speakers that are made for home systems, but for now these are working really good for me !!!
I'll wait for your call, i'm building the new cabinet, i should get it done today i hope!!!
Cheers
So now i've changed my plans around, i was going to by two 2-way 6" 1/2 kits from Beyma to build my 3 way system, but i decided to go with some JVC Aramid/carbon speakers, 2 2-ways and 2 coaxial !!! I was building the box out of 20mm Naval Plywood, i was 90% finished on the first cabinet, when i tested the everything, sounded not good, after many tests i found out that the duct was to small !
So i scraped everything and bought a finished MDF and changed the mesurements to include a subwoofer on the side !!!
Here are the speakers i bought :
2-way JVC CS-FS6 (email Jvc asking for the Thiele Small parameters)
2-WAY COAXIAL CS-FX602
Subwoofer Pioneer TS-W257D4
and this is for a center chanel:
Pioneer TS-D1320C
The coaxials that i already use are these:
Fronts = Sony XS-GTX1740C
Rear = Sony XS-GTX1340C
I really wish i could get speakers that are made for home systems, but for now these are working really good for me !!!
I'll wait for your call, i'm building the new cabinet, i should get it done today i hope!!!
Cheers
Nigel,
I also live in Brazil and I can tell you that the import taxes suck! However I also join the group that actually prefers to import the speakers. Being able to use drivers that are already well known and reviewed on the community makes a big difference. Remember that when you finish your cabinet, the only component you will not want to blame is the driver.
Having that said, your post got my curiosity and I looked after the specs of the various Brazilian manufacturers mentioned on the thread. First of all, I have a general rule of thumb that a manufacturer that takes care of its web site, posting enough technical details immediately gets my respect.
1. Selenium. Actually they have the richest site in terms of technical details, including frequency plots of impedance, SPL, THD and phase. In the past, when Internet wasn't here yet, I wrote some letters asking for more info and they always answered very well including printed graphic plots of their speakers. The big problem I see on Selenium subwoofers is their rather high Fs, even on the 18" models.
2. Bravox. The Premium IIe Export PSW 12 got my attention however I would definitively ask for frequency plots of this speaker. Xmax seems low but if you want to pair them with you monitor speaker maybe your SPL requirements are not so high. The Q parameters suggest that a open baffle might be the best way to handle them.
3. N.A.R. and others. I might sound rough and unfair but IMHO it seems that speaker manufacturers in Brazil are car audio and SPL oriented. You can see that on lack of technical details.
Nevertheless, I would love to see a greater discussion on this topic. We need to give some visibility to the big guys like Selenium and Bravox that we need some good local speaker alternatives for audiophile home audio.
My $.02
Cheers
I also live in Brazil and I can tell you that the import taxes suck! However I also join the group that actually prefers to import the speakers. Being able to use drivers that are already well known and reviewed on the community makes a big difference. Remember that when you finish your cabinet, the only component you will not want to blame is the driver.
Having that said, your post got my curiosity and I looked after the specs of the various Brazilian manufacturers mentioned on the thread. First of all, I have a general rule of thumb that a manufacturer that takes care of its web site, posting enough technical details immediately gets my respect.
1. Selenium. Actually they have the richest site in terms of technical details, including frequency plots of impedance, SPL, THD and phase. In the past, when Internet wasn't here yet, I wrote some letters asking for more info and they always answered very well including printed graphic plots of their speakers. The big problem I see on Selenium subwoofers is their rather high Fs, even on the 18" models.
2. Bravox. The Premium IIe Export PSW 12 got my attention however I would definitively ask for frequency plots of this speaker. Xmax seems low but if you want to pair them with you monitor speaker maybe your SPL requirements are not so high. The Q parameters suggest that a open baffle might be the best way to handle them.
3. N.A.R. and others. I might sound rough and unfair but IMHO it seems that speaker manufacturers in Brazil are car audio and SPL oriented. You can see that on lack of technical details.
Nevertheless, I would love to see a greater discussion on this topic. We need to give some visibility to the big guys like Selenium and Bravox that we need some good local speaker alternatives for audiophile home audio.
My $.02
Cheers
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