This thread is to discuss ideas for a budget Classic 3-way speaker. (Sometimes referred to un-eloquently as a Monkey Coffin)
Driver choices, technical performance requirements, whether it is okay to finish it in anything other than Walnut veneer, etc. are fair game.
In fact, there are no limits to the topic - which means it is impossible to go off-topic.
Maybe we can surpass the 14K posts that have yet to resolve the question "Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high SPL, low distortion with a 2-way?" 😉
Driver choices, technical performance requirements, whether it is okay to finish it in anything other than Walnut veneer, etc. are fair game.
In fact, there are no limits to the topic - which means it is impossible to go off-topic.
Maybe we can surpass the 14K posts that have yet to resolve the question "Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high SPL, low distortion with a 2-way?" 😉
I did a low cost 3 way a year or two ago, looks like ATC. The tweeter was swapped for a dayton nd25FW. Filters were active but passive would be simple to do and inexpensive.
They were intended to be Pit Vipers by Paul Carmody but I found the real performance of the speaker didn't really match his sim and there was a huge valley from 200hz to 1.7khz that doesn't match the sim. 400hz was 10db from the rest of the response. Not a good filter set IMO.
Sounded pretty good, lots of body and pretty much effortless playback through the entire spectrum. In room 20-20khz was easily achieved. Active filters made making the speaker very linear easy. Not much in the way of distortion. The speakers didn't really image or present sound stage as well as some two ways I've made though. I find I'm sensitive to edge diffraction and this one had problems there, the close edge to the tweeter was fine, but the far edge made for a secondary source you could localize to the edge if you stood in the right spot. If I made them again I'd put a 1" round over around the baffle edges. I would also rear port them, the front port leaked a height related cab resonance.
I ended up trashing them and using the woofers for subs. I found I kind of hated having refridgerator sized speakers in my home and they were a two man lift. With that said, the driver combo of SD315a, DC130, and ND25FW worked out very well.
They were intended to be Pit Vipers by Paul Carmody but I found the real performance of the speaker didn't really match his sim and there was a huge valley from 200hz to 1.7khz that doesn't match the sim. 400hz was 10db from the rest of the response. Not a good filter set IMO.
Sounded pretty good, lots of body and pretty much effortless playback through the entire spectrum. In room 20-20khz was easily achieved. Active filters made making the speaker very linear easy. Not much in the way of distortion. The speakers didn't really image or present sound stage as well as some two ways I've made though. I find I'm sensitive to edge diffraction and this one had problems there, the close edge to the tweeter was fine, but the far edge made for a secondary source you could localize to the edge if you stood in the right spot. If I made them again I'd put a 1" round over around the baffle edges. I would also rear port them, the front port leaked a height related cab resonance.
I ended up trashing them and using the woofers for subs. I found I kind of hated having refridgerator sized speakers in my home and they were a two man lift. With that said, the driver combo of SD315a, DC130, and ND25FW worked out very well.
This Peerless tweeter doesn't have much diffraction problem even with square edges. They are hard to find, but eventually will be available. I have a pair.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...eeter-with-Waveguide-6-Oh-264-1386?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...eeter-with-Waveguide-6-Oh-264-1386?quantity=1
The RSS265HF-8 Sims great sealed in anything from 1 cu-ft to 1.5 cu-ft. F3 around 35hz to 40hz. It' a little expensive, but no ports to deal with. Speaker would be about 82dB, which is low, but allows some additional mids.as an option.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...gvi3S9kSgeLHPlwxuLi4nqcVVDikJRIxoCwUgQAvD_BwE
Here with RS100p' Could the RS survive crossed that low?
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...gvi3S9kSgeLHPlwxuLi4nqcVVDikJRIxoCwUgQAvD_BwE
Here with RS100p' Could the RS survive crossed that low?
From another thread, the question came up...what does it MEAN to be a budget project. If your reference is a Seas diamond dome tweeter, Accuton mids and Purifi 10" drivers, then several thousand dollars is relatively budget. In that thread, the discussion was focusing on 12" woofers, so here were three options I put together based on easy to get drivers from Parts Express. (Disclaimer, Dayton Audio drivers are quite the bargain in the US, not so much in Europe.)
What does "budget" mean to YOU??
Ultra Budget: $242 [Dayton DC300-8, Dayton DS135-8, Peerless DX25TG59-04] Both of these Dayton's are on sale right now for about 18% off, with an additional 14% off these 6 drivers would be $181 through Monday]
Budget: $415 [Dayton DS315-8, Dayton RS150P, Dayton RST28F in a 3D printed waveguide] This would be $70 less with the Peerless SLS 830669 12" back in stock in May, which may be better than the DS315-8 anyways]
Performance: $608 [Peerless XXLS Nomex cone back in stock in May, Peerless NE149W, Peerless XT25BG60-04 in a 3D printed waveguide]
What does "budget" mean to YOU??
Ultra Budget: $242 [Dayton DC300-8, Dayton DS135-8, Peerless DX25TG59-04] Both of these Dayton's are on sale right now for about 18% off, with an additional 14% off these 6 drivers would be $181 through Monday]
Budget: $415 [Dayton DS315-8, Dayton RS150P, Dayton RST28F in a 3D printed waveguide] This would be $70 less with the Peerless SLS 830669 12" back in stock in May, which may be better than the DS315-8 anyways]
Performance: $608 [Peerless XXLS Nomex cone back in stock in May, Peerless NE149W, Peerless XT25BG60-04 in a 3D printed waveguide]
A related question...how important is sensitivity? Yes, that speaker would be about 82dB but could handle a LOT of power, given the right midrange and tweeter.
Also, is it important to stick with 8-ohm designs?
You mentioned the RS100 in another thread...I love the RS100 but my question is whether it can keep up with not just the RSS265 but a 10" woofer in general.
This was with a $15 mid.Still small though.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...-Cone-Midbass-Woofer-8-Ohm-295-416?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...-Cone-Midbass-Woofer-8-Ohm-295-416?quantity=1
Is this now different from the other thread? Why is Dayton the only game in town for "budget" drivers? Rather limiting, and I think not even cheap outside the USA.
Sim the RSS265HF to get xmax and see what power it took and the total SPL you are getting.
Now, try to match that SPL level with the RS100.
My guess is that you are going to get "Fried RS100" for dinner.
Of course, you don't HAVE to run the RSS265 to xmax, but why pay $200 for a driver that can go low and loud and then use it like you would a $75 woofer?
Yes, the other tread is to actually achieve an open source design meeting certain (to be determined) performance targets.
This thread is to just discuss BUDGET Classic 3-way design. Of course, if we actually make a version that would be cool.
As far as drivers, fire away! I used Dayton Audio drivers in my example because I am familiar with them and was just putting together ideas while playing on my phone. There are LOTS of other drivers that I personally am not familiar with and could be great choices.
I only mention Dayton because they have files I can use to sim. Actually, I prefer Peerless, but it's a long wait to get anything from them. I'm just showing some options.
What's a good sealed box woofer for use in under 1.5 cu-ft, or so? I've not modeled many, but the RSS looked interesting.
I don't think any mid will hang with the output of the RSS.
105dB at x-max with 200w
My Peerless 4" HDS would need about 100w to go that loud. It's not rated for that much power.
105dB at x-max with 200w
My Peerless 4" HDS would need about 100w to go that loud. It's not rated for that much power.
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Looks like more fun that a coffin full of monkeys. Maybe we can look at versions that are low sensitivity (Dayton with high X-max) and also those with higher sensitivity. I have Faital 10FE330 that would work great in a 55L cab (F3 reportedly around 38Hz) and GRS 12SW-4HE that is currently doing duty as a Tarkus with Bagby's Kairos. I previously mentioned GRS 12PT-8 (currently out of stock) as a possibility. Have not heard or measured though. I do have the GRS 10PT-8 for a project for my brother, it may shed some light on how its bigger brother may perform.
Thanks @A4eaudio for starting the thread.
Thanks @A4eaudio for starting the thread.
In my searching, I was trying to stay with sealed, and 8 ohms. (And not too big.)
That's not because I want that, it's an assumption that someone building this might find it easier without ports, and maybe better sound without port resonances.
I have no idea who might even be interested.
That's not because I want that, it's an assumption that someone building this might find it easier without ports, and maybe better sound without port resonances.
I have no idea who might even be interested.
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Sensitivity is important.
Start with a small pro midrange like the PRV 4MR60-4 that I used in my Synchaetas minimonitors with the Dayton ND25FA. This driver is 86dB after BSC. Add a 1-2 dB for bandpass gain, and then add 6dB for BSC on the woofers. I would shoot for 4 ohm system impedance so that the woofers can be used in parallel pairs. This means that I could have an 88dB system if the woofers start at 94dB net before losses.
A simple paper, poly, or woven fiber midrange can make filter design easier. Metal woofers xover lower can suppress breakup and keep the low end pistonic and clean. Place them (at least one of them) close to the floor and gain some of the BSC loss back due to adjacent floor placement.
I know there is a consensus for Dayton Audio to not be as inexpensive elsewhere, or maybe be unavailable. Unfortunately, there are not as many metal coned woofers from other manufacturers that are as affordable.
AND- vent those puppies! don't throw away the bass extension you can get for the cost of PVC tubes.
Start with a small pro midrange like the PRV 4MR60-4 that I used in my Synchaetas minimonitors with the Dayton ND25FA. This driver is 86dB after BSC. Add a 1-2 dB for bandpass gain, and then add 6dB for BSC on the woofers. I would shoot for 4 ohm system impedance so that the woofers can be used in parallel pairs. This means that I could have an 88dB system if the woofers start at 94dB net before losses.
A simple paper, poly, or woven fiber midrange can make filter design easier. Metal woofers xover lower can suppress breakup and keep the low end pistonic and clean. Place them (at least one of them) close to the floor and gain some of the BSC loss back due to adjacent floor placement.
I know there is a consensus for Dayton Audio to not be as inexpensive elsewhere, or maybe be unavailable. Unfortunately, there are not as many metal coned woofers from other manufacturers that are as affordable.
AND- vent those puppies! don't throw away the bass extension you can get for the cost of PVC tubes.
I did this 3-way project last summer.
Cost of the drivers was $558 /pair. This does not include the PR.
If I was going to do this project again, I would not use a PR, I would just make it a vented design. I would also use the less expensive SB15NBAC midwoofer as the midrange. This would save $50 with no penalty in performance. There are a few other things I would change as well, but none that would affect the budget.
Cost of the drivers was $558 /pair. This does not include the PR.
If I was going to do this project again, I would not use a PR, I would just make it a vented design. I would also use the less expensive SB15NBAC midwoofer as the midrange. This would save $50 with no penalty in performance. There are a few other things I would change as well, but none that would affect the budget.
I agree with @wolf_teeth about bass reflex. At this price range, it is hard to find drivers with a lot of Xmax and Sd. For a sealed box design, you need both. If we are working with a more expansive budget, it is an easy choice to use two DSP-enhanced 10" woofers in a sealed box to get the same SPL as a single 10" woofer vented. But if costs are constrained, the single vented 10" starts to look really attractive...
j.
j.
The way I read his post, he's talking about 4 woofers in a ported box. Maybe I'm missing something, but that probably costs a lot, and needs a very large box, unless maybe 50hz is the goal.
I agree that RSS265 hits xmax at 200W and 105db - Half Space (I am using WinISD and its SPL is half-space). Assuming 6dB of baffle-step loss (BSL) gives 99dB full-space.
RS100P-8 can handle 30 watts RMS which puts it at 99dB half space. But it is does not incur a full 6dB BSL, so we are close to getting there. Note, also, that in a 0.10cf sealed enclosure we are not hitting xmax until 150Hz, so crossing over around 350Hz, xmax is not our limiting factor, but the power handling of the voice coil.
RS150P-4 (note, I switched to the 4 ohm version here). This one has a power handling of 40W, at which it gives us 103dB. So this would work. Switch the RSS265 to the 4-ohm version and the RS150P to the 8-ohm version and the mid will be a (slightly) constraining factor)