Size Matters!
For a given driver different types of cabinet will scale up in size & efficiency.
Smallest concidered
Reflex cab
Cubo would give more mid bass
Small Tapped horn - Tham
Bigger Tapped horn - SS15 (I like a HD version of the SS) - Xoc1 - Keystone
Bandpass (maybe??)
Finally F L Horn.
So driver budget & Size that can be accomodated are 2 parameters.
Many of the most expensive drivers may take more power which eventually makes them louder, But the amount of energy usedmay be a another parameter to be concidered. Lesser drivers may be louder for a given power level.
For a given driver different types of cabinet will scale up in size & efficiency.
Smallest concidered
Reflex cab
Cubo would give more mid bass
Small Tapped horn - Tham
Bigger Tapped horn - SS15 (I like a HD version of the SS) - Xoc1 - Keystone
Bandpass (maybe??)
Finally F L Horn.
So driver budget & Size that can be accomodated are 2 parameters.
Many of the most expensive drivers may take more power which eventually makes them louder, But the amount of energy usedmay be a another parameter to be concidered. Lesser drivers may be louder for a given power level.
The best bang for your buck is the largest driver you can afford which has decent sensitivity and good Xmax. Do a quick 'Vd per Krone' calculation of various size drivers, as it is displacement volume which ultimately determines the cost ratio. Assuming that sound quality is not high on your list of requirements, a big horn should do the job.
hi guys,
i am leaning towards two of these in THAM15 boxes: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-b-c-speakers-15tbx100-4-ohm-15-inch.html
but then someone posted these in the thread: https://www.thomann.de/se/the_box_speaker_122808a.htm
very cheap. i could go for 4 of these 12" subs and putit in THAM12 boxes. is that a better alternative?
fyi, i plan to run it on car amps. i havent got the amp yet but yes it will handle 2 ohm, probably going for a mono amp. sound quality is not important. i just want it LOUD
btw, what would the ideal midrange speaker be? horn box?? today i run a pair of 12" monacor in a ported box with 100db sensitivity
i am leaning towards two of these in THAM15 boxes: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-b-c-speakers-15tbx100-4-ohm-15-inch.html
but then someone posted these in the thread: https://www.thomann.de/se/the_box_speaker_122808a.htm
very cheap. i could go for 4 of these 12" subs and putit in THAM12 boxes. is that a better alternative?
fyi, i plan to run it on car amps. i havent got the amp yet but yes it will handle 2 ohm, probably going for a mono amp. sound quality is not important. i just want it LOUD
btw, what would the ideal midrange speaker be? horn box?? today i run a pair of 12" monacor in a ported box with 100db sensitivity
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this seems like a decent option! about 60 euros each. 4 of these would have higher sensitivity than two b&c 15tbx100 i suppose? although i cannot find much information about these speakers
how would they do in tham12 boxes? what box is used in your graph?
does anyone else have any thoughts on these?
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That sim is just something I've been looking at for a little while now.
Think it was about 180 liters per box with the double 12".
If you have no regard for quality whatsoever it is probably possible to make it a tiny bit smaller and aim for "flat to 40Hz", but the way it is now you get the absolute most out of those drivers.
Think it was about 180 liters per box with the double 12".
If you have no regard for quality whatsoever it is probably possible to make it a tiny bit smaller and aim for "flat to 40Hz", but the way it is now you get the absolute most out of those drivers.
180 liters for 2x12"? what's the size of the port, if used?
do you have a curve on one of these elements in that box with 1wrms?
the thing is, your max dbspl curve for 4 of those elements is lower than what martinsson posted for a single beyma 12" 12LX60v2 in a tham12 box:
or maybe i am missing something?
https://www.martinsson.cc/blog/index.php?entry=THAM12
do you have a curve on one of these elements in that box with 1wrms?
the thing is, your max dbspl curve for 4 of those elements is lower than what martinsson posted for a single beyma 12" 12LX60v2 in a tham12 box:
or maybe i am missing something?
https://www.martinsson.cc/blog/index.php?entry=THAM12
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The Hornresp sims were done using different "space".
4xPi is free space, 2Pi half space, 1.0Pi 1/4 space, .5 Pi 1/8th space.
If you compare using the same "space", the SPL won't be so different.
To compare loudspeakers that work well in different cabinet designs, it is best to measure them under the same conditions, like these examples from stoneeh:
10% distortion limited output for the BR, Tham and SS15 are similar, the SS15 ahead by +3-4dB other than 50-66Hz range:
The 15LB075 driver Xmax is only 4mm, so one could expect more output from a driver with more linear excursion, but that would apply to all the different cabinet types.
That said, drivers with more Xmax are generally a bit less sensitive, so require more power to get louder while also being more expensive to make or buy.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/tham15-a-compact-15-tapped-horn.175658/page-35
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/pa-sub-shootout-2021.378295/
Bottom line: since you just want it LOUD, go for more cheap drivers in more cabinets that make them most sensitive in the range you want them to be LOUD.
One of these PA re-entrant horns can do around 110dB with one watt, 130dB with 100:
LOUD!
Art
Attachments
Indeed, like Art says here I specified my sim in 4/pi or "full space". Because in some of the examples you posted the subs were quite high off the ground, which will force the energy to dissipate in all directions as opposed to if you laid the speakers on the ground in the middle of a field all that same amount of energy would be spread out in a half sphere as opposed to a full sphere if it was hanging around in the middle of the air.
I think for what you posted it is more helpful to look at 4/pi numbers and possibly get something slightly better, rather than getting very disappointed.
It is indeed possible to post the numbers in 1/pi (on the ground right beside a large wall) to make it look better, but that is not helping you understand what may be realistic for your application.
Here is a comparison of 4/pi, 2/pi and 1/pi for a single speaker:
What these simulations DO NOT tell you, is what happens when the boundaries (walls, floor, ceiling etc) act together at random distances in relation to eachother. IE when placed in a room or house, you may get:
- Modes, frequencies that resonate in either positive or negative way with the structure resulting in peaks and dips in the response.
- Low frequencies may not perceive the floor/ceiling/walls as a 100% true boundary anymore, for instance if it is on the 3rd floor causing less than desired sound for you but more than desired sound for the neighbours.
- Really, 1 and 2 is more or less all of it on a simplified list like this, but for higher frequencies we can say that point 1 can turn into a thing called "Diffraction" which is how objects in the room may disturb the distribution of sound.
- 0.5/pi is EXTREMELY unrealistic IMO unless you build a perfect corner out of concrete with very large walls in the middle of a field.
- 1/pi can happen very smoothly if you place the speaker right beside a concrete building outside on the ground, or next to the wall in an IDEAL room.
- 2/pi is sort of the base of what we can expect just about anywhere in real life applications, perhaps close to the average low dip in a very troublesome room.
- 4/pi hanging in the middle of the air.
In sum:
The amount of energy is the same for all these examples, what changes is how the energy is spreading out from the source.
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alright, but is this ported box really louder than a tapped horn? i like that they are cheap so i can get multiple of them, but not going with a horn doesn't feel right? from a beginner perspective i really doubt it would be louder with just a ported box - why would anyone build horns if that's the case?
stoneeh used the box 15LB075 in tapped horns in this video
wouldn't that be slightly better? they are 28% more expensive than the box Speaker 12-280/8-A though but i could still go with 4 of these
stoneeh used the box 15LB075 in tapped horns in this video
well alright, in that graph the tham didnt perform that well, i guess i have to go with a ported box then
then the question is:
the box Speaker 12-280/8-A VS the box 15LB075-UW4
i can go with 4 of either sub driver. for tweeters, i today run a pair of spaudio tw-35s: https://www.spaudio.it/products/sptw-35s-150-watt-rms
and midrange is a pair of these: https://www.eluxson.se/produktkategorier/430-sp-12a-302pa.html
I don't understand your question, two different speaker size and impedance.well alright, in that graph the tham didnt perform that well, i guess i have to go with a ported box then
then the question is:
the box Speaker 12-280/8-A VS the box 15LB075-UW4
Using the the 15LB075-UW4:
If I recall correctly, the Tham 15 is smaller than the ported box, so didn't do as well in the bottom end. It has slightly better output 60-120Hz than the ported box.
The SS15 is larger than either, had the same 43Hz sensitivity as the ported box, rising to +5dB more output at 100Hz.
You would need almost double the ported boxes using twice the power to equal the SS15.
impedance does not matter, i can run 1,2 or 4 ohms when added together (preferably 1 or 2 ohms).
ss15 has higher sensitivity than tham (in general i guess, for any speaker) is higher but yes, it is a bigger box:
note: i am not arguing ss15 vs tham, i am arguing horn vs ported
what you haven't shown me for the the box Speaker 12-280/8-A yet is the sensitivity on 1w/1m. i would like to compare that to a tham box. your argument is that 4 of these equal two 18s, but do you mean two 18s in ported or in horn design?
12" Flat on open ground 1W 1m Beyma 12LX60V2 :
why i mentioned the box 15LB075-UW4 is because i saw it was used in a ss15 horn and thought it might work in a tham15 box, if that would give it higher sensitivity than the box Speaker 12-280/8-A
the box 15LB075-UW is cheap, and i could go for 4 of these. that makes it a 4x 15" horns vs 4x 12" ported box question, granted it is somewhat suited for a tham15 box
4x the box 15LB075-UW in a ported box could also work, if the sensitivity is higher, see this picture:
ss15 has higher sensitivity than tham (in general i guess, for any speaker) is higher but yes, it is a bigger box:
note: i am not arguing ss15 vs tham, i am arguing horn vs ported
what you haven't shown me for the the box Speaker 12-280/8-A yet is the sensitivity on 1w/1m. i would like to compare that to a tham box. your argument is that 4 of these equal two 18s, but do you mean two 18s in ported or in horn design?
12" Flat on open ground 1W 1m Beyma 12LX60V2 :
why i mentioned the box 15LB075-UW4 is because i saw it was used in a ss15 horn and thought it might work in a tham15 box, if that would give it higher sensitivity than the box Speaker 12-280/8-A
the box 15LB075-UW is cheap, and i could go for 4 of these. that makes it a 4x 15" horns vs 4x 12" ported box question, granted it is somewhat suited for a tham15 box
4x the box 15LB075-UW in a ported box could also work, if the sensitivity is higher, see this picture:
The 15LB075-UW4 works OK in both the SS15, THAM15, and ported box, as seen in post #27.
The 15LB075-UW4 will have higher 1w/1m low frequency sensitivity than the smaller 12-280/8-A.
Given the same power and the same 43Hz Fb (box tuning) at least six of the 12-280/8-A in ported boxes would be required to equal the low frequency output of four 15LB075-UW4 in SS15 TH cabinets.
In the 80-100Hz range, the ratio would be more like four 15LB075-UW4 in SS15 to eight 12-280/8-A in ported boxes.
ohm does not matter. i can manage both 1 and 2 ohm with a mono amp like this: https://www.jjaudio.se/slutsteg/monoblock/spaudio-sp-35001d-1ohm-3500wrms.html
Just to clarify,
A point source at the centre of a sphere of radius R radiates into a solid angle of A / (R ^ 2) steradians, where A is the surface area.
The surface area of a sphere is given by 4 * Pi * R ^ 2
So full space solid radiation angle = 4 * Pi * R ^ 2 / (R ^ 2) = 4 * Pi (not 4 / Pi)
Similarly,
Half space solid radiation angle = 2 * Pi
Quarter space solid radiation angle = 1 * Pi
Eighth space solid radiation angle = 0.5 * Pi (See attachment)
Attachments
i can tell that eight 18 inch subs don't need much watts any more. They drain ridiculously small amounts of watts.
My Behringer Inuke NU3000dsp did not show more than two lights blinking when playing pretty loud.
Watch here
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...loudspeaker-sandwich-cone.402917/post-7443474
My Behringer Inuke NU3000dsp did not show more than two lights blinking when playing pretty loud.
Watch here
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...loudspeaker-sandwich-cone.402917/post-7443474