I've already got some older cat 5e cable, comprising an overall shield around some 24awg twisted pairs, that I could use to make some balanced interconnects. The shield was actually less common in those days, but I see that cat7 started to employ one as standard, and now cat8 has the individual pairs wrapped in foil too. It looks like some cat8 has thicker conductors as well, though not always.
Anyway, my question is whether there is likely to be any benefit of using cat8 (compared to my shielded 5e) for balanced audio cables. In some cases I would just be using one of the pairs, for one mono channel, but in other cases I'd be using two of the pairs for stereo or possibly three pairs for bass, mid & high. It is just a home environment, and the longest runs would be less than 5meters/16feet, so I'm thinking it wouldn't gain very much. Especially as the shield (if i recall correctly) only really helps with radio/high frequency noise, whilst it is the twisting that helps with magnetic-fields trying to cause more audible ground loops.
Though my thinking might be flawed. And I do live in quite a busy built-up area with electrical devices and phone masts etc everywhere. I don't actually know if cat8 is twisted any differently/better either; it may be. Plus (for multi-channel use) the individual foil screening of each pair might be a practical advantage for when splitting the pairs to separate connectors at each end.
I'm sure both would work, just wondered if anyone has a better insight into the likely real-world benefits (or lack of them) than the random musings in this post?
Thanks, Kev
Anyway, my question is whether there is likely to be any benefit of using cat8 (compared to my shielded 5e) for balanced audio cables. In some cases I would just be using one of the pairs, for one mono channel, but in other cases I'd be using two of the pairs for stereo or possibly three pairs for bass, mid & high. It is just a home environment, and the longest runs would be less than 5meters/16feet, so I'm thinking it wouldn't gain very much. Especially as the shield (if i recall correctly) only really helps with radio/high frequency noise, whilst it is the twisting that helps with magnetic-fields trying to cause more audible ground loops.
Though my thinking might be flawed. And I do live in quite a busy built-up area with electrical devices and phone masts etc everywhere. I don't actually know if cat8 is twisted any differently/better either; it may be. Plus (for multi-channel use) the individual foil screening of each pair might be a practical advantage for when splitting the pairs to separate connectors at each end.
I'm sure both would work, just wondered if anyone has a better insight into the likely real-world benefits (or lack of them) than the random musings in this post?
Thanks, Kev
If you have cat 5 STP then no benefit other than old STP is often very stiff and Cat8 might be more flexible. Of course new shiny always sounds better 😀
The twist will be tighter and better controlled in the CAT8 so there may be less pickup due to that. Consider though you can send audio over a 50m XLR made without such fancy techniques without issue its probobly not going to result in even a measurable improvement over a short interconnect.
Thanks, both!
It might come down to just practical things then, vs whether I think they're worth paying for. I hadn't thought about flexibility, but yes my cat5e STP is unpleasant stiff stuff, so it wouldn't be hard to improve on it. Then there is the individual-pair shielding that would make one method of breaking out (to separate connectors) easier, though no different if I make a join/junction to new cables instead.
It is interesting to hear that cat8 might be a little better twisted, too. Maybe not a noticeable advance for our purposes, but nice to see things getting better rather than cheaper and nastier, for once. If I remember rightly (and I may not) there was a test of such things some time ago where tight twists appeared more worthwhile than shielding in this kind of application.
Cheers,
Kev
It might come down to just practical things then, vs whether I think they're worth paying for. I hadn't thought about flexibility, but yes my cat5e STP is unpleasant stiff stuff, so it wouldn't be hard to improve on it. Then there is the individual-pair shielding that would make one method of breaking out (to separate connectors) easier, though no different if I make a join/junction to new cables instead.
It is interesting to hear that cat8 might be a little better twisted, too. Maybe not a noticeable advance for our purposes, but nice to see things getting better rather than cheaper and nastier, for once. If I remember rightly (and I may not) there was a test of such things some time ago where tight twists appeared more worthwhile than shielding in this kind of application.
Cheers,
Kev
Well I managed to find a few videos comparing cat8 (which I've not seen in person, yet). It looks like some decent examples are quite impressive (especially for the price) but also really quite bulky. I might just possibly go with it for some longer multi-way runs, but it seems a bit much for short patch leads behind equipment. For that I'll either stick with the 5e STP because I have it or (as that is still pretty stiff and springy for smaller items) just get some microphone cable.
Cheers,
Kev
Cheers,
Kev
For interconnects why not even skinnier wire.
I have some nice wire wrap wire i will make into interconnects.
dave
I have some nice wire wrap wire i will make into interconnects.
dave
faff to screen it though when plenty of twisted pair +screen options exist for pennies per metre.
I'd check out the belden website to see what their specs and measurements are. then decide which ones are applicable to your audio environment, and not just electrical specs. you probably don't care about the pulling strength, but minimum bend radius could be useful to know.
Yeah, that would be a useful idea. When it comes to the longer interconnects I'll have a poke around the Belden site before deciding.
I'll twist my own together for internal wiring, but start to lose the will when it comes to interconnects. I'm sure a custom-diy made cable could be better, but I'm not sure it would gain enough in my situation. I'd want to include shielding which is a faff, whilst ready-made cable can be cheap and robust.
Anyway I just got a little lucky. I called into a local electrical/electronic shop to see what they had, and there were some scruffy but unused long microphone cables being sold off. They seemed reasonable, with neutrik connectors for example. One won't be suitable; when I cut off the connector it was found to be only single cored (so that'll be used for RCA interconnects). The other two though are just the job; 6m long, twisted pair with quite a dense copper lapped screen, and very very flexible. So they'll be cut up to make the shorter patch leads 🙂
EDIT: It is noticeable that the twisting is 'far' less tight than ethernet cable and the conductor's insulation bulkier so they aren't able to be so close. But that goes for any microphone cable I've ever had, so I don't suppose this is deficient in any way and I'm happy enough to compromise for the sake of much more flexible cabling. I might go to ethernet for the longer runs though.
I'll twist my own together for internal wiring, but start to lose the will when it comes to interconnects. I'm sure a custom-diy made cable could be better, but I'm not sure it would gain enough in my situation. I'd want to include shielding which is a faff, whilst ready-made cable can be cheap and robust.
Anyway I just got a little lucky. I called into a local electrical/electronic shop to see what they had, and there were some scruffy but unused long microphone cables being sold off. They seemed reasonable, with neutrik connectors for example. One won't be suitable; when I cut off the connector it was found to be only single cored (so that'll be used for RCA interconnects). The other two though are just the job; 6m long, twisted pair with quite a dense copper lapped screen, and very very flexible. So they'll be cut up to make the shorter patch leads 🙂
EDIT: It is noticeable that the twisting is 'far' less tight than ethernet cable and the conductor's insulation bulkier so they aren't able to be so close. But that goes for any microphone cable I've ever had, so I don't suppose this is deficient in any way and I'm happy enough to compromise for the sake of much more flexible cabling. I might go to ethernet for the longer runs though.
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A very old Steve Lampden at Belden (ret) paper:
http://erictraining.com/articles/AV/AV over Cat5e by Steve Lampden.pdf
http://erictraining.com/articles/AV/AV over Cat5e by Steve Lampden.pdf
Thanks, I've not seen that particular paper before, though happily it agrees with what I've read elsewhere. Unfortunately it pre-dates the cat8 of interest to this thread, but one could easily extend some of the tables with the relevant specifications for it.
A pity that it doesn't go into shielding very much, as there are STP variants of ethernet cables available, in fact I believe cat8 is now always shielded. Wish I could find the article I'm thinking about: IIRC different twist frequency was tested along with shielding, and a higher twist rate found to be better than lower rate with a shield. But the details and context would be important for applicability of the results, and I can't recall them.
A pity that it doesn't go into shielding very much, as there are STP variants of ethernet cables available, in fact I believe cat8 is now always shielded. Wish I could find the article I'm thinking about: IIRC different twist frequency was tested along with shielding, and a higher twist rate found to be better than lower rate with a shield. But the details and context would be important for applicability of the results, and I can't recall them.
For balanced analog line level interconnects there is almost no difference between Cat3 and Cat8. And in most cases not much difference between unshielded and shielded. Just connect the shield to the chassis at the send end. The twisting is about cross-talk in the many megahertz range.
Thanks for that. Yes, I might end up only connecting the shield at one end. Usually I try it at both ends to begin with, just through some sense of that being best practice, and disconnecting one end if there is actually a problem. Perhaps it would cover more eventualities to adopt one ended connection as standard though; as you say the shield isn't massively important anyway so not worth actually causing problems with it.
Thank you for the info. Yes, I'd be concerned if a lead had a noticeable sonic signature. Generally I want and expect them to be audibly transparent in that respect, if made at all well. The main deficiencies I've had previously, even with quite cheap ones, have just been susceptibility to noise or interference, or mechanical weaknesses (fragile wire, poor connectors etc.).
Not familiar with CAT 8 yet as I don't run 10 gigabit ethernet but with every step up the tighter twisting IS the main difference apart from shielding of pairs. Problem is that finishing the cable becomes more difficult as well. One almost can't do this manually and have required results. The slightest difference when untwisting unevenly makes the the cable perform way less good. I could previously use a very expensive measuring device for this and I have compared cables with it. Ready made cables (produced by robotic devices) nearly always were up to specs, the self crimped cables rarely were up to specs.
The use of CAT 7 (and 8 probably as well) for audio is completely unnecessary and makes matters more difficult instead of better. They are meant for 10 gigabit connections over copper.
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I’ve used linkup CAT8 for just that purpose. I had cable left over from an Ethernet wiring project. The outer shield will solder but the inner shield over each pair is foil. I used CAT8 for line level balanced DAC output to a passive volume control and VC to amplifier. I used it because I had it. It’s a short run at line level. Sounds great.
But don’t buy a bulk roll of shielded CAT8 for a couple of interconnects.
But don’t buy a bulk roll of shielded CAT8 for a couple of interconnects.
Using what you have is using an opportunity. It has not much to do with selecting on quality or "best for the purpose".
As stated, if the cable is untwisted unevenly it may measure worse than a CAT 5E. Or is it all unimportant for 20 ....20 kHz purposes and 0.5 meter length cables 🙂 ?
What if.....we would build all in one boxes without interlinks?
As stated, if the cable is untwisted unevenly it may measure worse than a CAT 5E. Or is it all unimportant for 20 ....20 kHz purposes and 0.5 meter length cables 🙂 ?
What if.....we would build all in one boxes without interlinks?