The 70* beamwidth at 1kHz seems to be in the vertical (the triangles), but 1300Hz looks like a good compromise for a 15, anyway. Your tops are good to go! In the horizontal, the horn doesn't actually reach its target beamwidth until about 4kHz. The HP64 & HP94 were also used in the EV MTH Manifold horns & crossed at 1600Hz. The HP94 definitely has a more consistent beamwidth in the horizontal.
Cheers, Joe. I'll keep an eye out for some HP94 horns.
In the mean time, I'm going to install top hats into the base of each cabinet. After that, I'm going to see about installing a winch on my speaker stands - the cabinets are in the 70lb region, and I weigh ~150lb - not much chance of getting them above head height by myself, though I can carry them around okay.
I guess the alternative would be to lie the speakers down, put the stands in, then stand the whole assembly up. Could be fun.
Gig tonight, I'll take some photos and let you know how it goes. For now, they're going on-stage on a table at each side. The wiring is also a bit of a mess - only got a bit of 4-core, so the other side is having 2 cables run across.
Excited to fire everything up and see what these drivers can really do.
Cheers
Chris
In the mean time, I'm going to install top hats into the base of each cabinet. After that, I'm going to see about installing a winch on my speaker stands - the cabinets are in the 70lb region, and I weigh ~150lb - not much chance of getting them above head height by myself, though I can carry them around okay.
I guess the alternative would be to lie the speakers down, put the stands in, then stand the whole assembly up. Could be fun.
Gig tonight, I'll take some photos and let you know how it goes. For now, they're going on-stage on a table at each side. The wiring is also a bit of a mess - only got a bit of 4-core, so the other side is having 2 cables run across.
Excited to fire everything up and see what these drivers can really do.
Cheers
Chris
Those 60x40 horns really are very directional.
The gig went well, though. By and large, there was no feedback from the main PA. Much better than the previous boxes in that regard.
They also went effortlessly loud. The hall was probably 12m by 8m, with a further room through the bar. Probably 18-20m long, total. Covered the entire space, easily - no sign of anything getting warm.
Next steps: put the DCX, and lots of amplifiers into a single rack. The QSC amp I used for HF is 3U, and the Peavey PV2600 for LF is 2u, though I really don't want both in the same rack, since I have to lift the thing. I have a 4U case, so a nice lightweight 1U amp of the 200w/ch variety would be lovely.
I have a very heavy 400w/ch C-Audio amp, but I hate having that in the same case as the Peavey - the case weighs nearly half what I do, and I want the DCX in there too.
If anyone has any recommendations for a HF amp that fits the bill, I'd appreciate it. I'm considering one of the Behringer ones, but, while I'm happy with their signal processors, amplifiers have to cope with much more abuse.
Chris
The gig went well, though. By and large, there was no feedback from the main PA. Much better than the previous boxes in that regard.
They also went effortlessly loud. The hall was probably 12m by 8m, with a further room through the bar. Probably 18-20m long, total. Covered the entire space, easily - no sign of anything getting warm.
Next steps: put the DCX, and lots of amplifiers into a single rack. The QSC amp I used for HF is 3U, and the Peavey PV2600 for LF is 2u, though I really don't want both in the same rack, since I have to lift the thing. I have a 4U case, so a nice lightweight 1U amp of the 200w/ch variety would be lovely.
I have a very heavy 400w/ch C-Audio amp, but I hate having that in the same case as the Peavey - the case weighs nearly half what I do, and I want the DCX in there too.
If anyone has any recommendations for a HF amp that fits the bill, I'd appreciate it. I'm considering one of the Behringer ones, but, while I'm happy with their signal processors, amplifiers have to cope with much more abuse.
Chris
Hi Nigel, guess you missed this.
Just looking for a 1U amplifier to power them.
Chris
Just looking for a 1U amplifier to power them.
Chris
DIY? Not too many 1U amps out there. Even then you bay have a hard time finding a toroid that will fit in 1U and has enough VA capability. Maybe two little ones in series.... The Behringers may be ok - probably won't burn out before the drivers do, but of course they have a habit of just breaking if they're thrown around too much. I ended up saying eff it and used a GX5 to drive 2"-ers. Never run out of headroom, never gets hot.
Found an old Peavey 1U amp for 250w/ch @4ohm. Should be plenty, and was rather cheap - used on eBay.
Most of my kit is Behringer - got the DCX for crossover duties, a DEQ and FBQ for EQ'ing and feedback on FOH and monitors respectively. A couple of compressors completes the rack. I do my best to treat it all nicely, as I'm a student that does gigs and parties for the love of it.
A Peavey PV-2600 powers the midbass drivers for somewhere between 600 and 900w/ch (IIRC it'll do 70v rms). Given the CD+horn is 115dB@1w, I think the 100w or so from the little Peavey will be plenty - if anything, the PV2600 will be short, especially with BSC thrown in.
The C-Audio amp will do for monitors (400w/ch into 8ohm 12" two-way cabs) - job's a good 'un.
I'll post some pictures up once the new amp arrives. The cabs are gonna be used for a house party next weekend. Should be plenty loud.
Chris
PS - I'll also see about doing some impedance sweeps to double-check the port tuning.
Most of my kit is Behringer - got the DCX for crossover duties, a DEQ and FBQ for EQ'ing and feedback on FOH and monitors respectively. A couple of compressors completes the rack. I do my best to treat it all nicely, as I'm a student that does gigs and parties for the love of it.
A Peavey PV-2600 powers the midbass drivers for somewhere between 600 and 900w/ch (IIRC it'll do 70v rms). Given the CD+horn is 115dB@1w, I think the 100w or so from the little Peavey will be plenty - if anything, the PV2600 will be short, especially with BSC thrown in.
The C-Audio amp will do for monitors (400w/ch into 8ohm 12" two-way cabs) - job's a good 'un.
I'll post some pictures up once the new amp arrives. The cabs are gonna be used for a house party next weekend. Should be plenty loud.
Chris
PS - I'll also see about doing some impedance sweeps to double-check the port tuning.
So, now that you've hosted a gig, are you feeling the need for dedicated subwoofers? As the saying goes, "You can never have enough bass!"
Yes, I can imagine that feedback wasn't a problem, given how narrow the HF coverage is. If you find a pair of HP94 horns, you'll have to be a little more careful with top box placement in relation to open mics. It's a tradeoff. A wider coverage HF horn also won't seem quite as loud on-axis at the same distance.
I'd be curious to see the impedance sweeps!
Yes, I can imagine that feedback wasn't a problem, given how narrow the HF coverage is. If you find a pair of HP94 horns, you'll have to be a little more careful with top box placement in relation to open mics. It's a tradeoff. A wider coverage HF horn also won't seem quite as loud on-axis at the same distance.
I'd be curious to see the impedance sweeps!
No need for subs so far, but that was a folk gig. I made sure you could feel the stompbox hit, and called it good (FFT was showing content down to 60Hz).
House party coming up this weekend, so hopefully we'll see what can really be done. Something tells me we won't be running close to full power, but the headroom's always nice.
From the Hornresp sims, in 4pi space I should be fairly flat to ~45Hz. -3dB at 40Hz. My previous tops were -10dB at 50Hz, and definitely needed some LF support. I've found flat to 30Hz is needed to 99.9% of my music, but that includes some dubstep. Since 30Hz will require a lot of drivers and power, I have little choice but to call it good for now.
Happy to do some impedance sweeps. Would you like LF, HF or both?
I'll also post up some EQ and crossover settings if anyone else ever uses these drivers.
Chris
PS - I'm still considering trying my pair of JBL GTO1214 drivers for a PA sub. There's a lot of Vd there... 😀
PPS - if I block one of the ports on the Deltamax cabs, I get 32Hz port tuning. Takes 8dB of EQ to get flat-to-30 performance, but I think port chuffing will be a serious problem. Still, that's an option for lower power use. Max SPL is limited, but still loud. Not PA loud any more, though...
House party coming up this weekend, so hopefully we'll see what can really be done. Something tells me we won't be running close to full power, but the headroom's always nice.
From the Hornresp sims, in 4pi space I should be fairly flat to ~45Hz. -3dB at 40Hz. My previous tops were -10dB at 50Hz, and definitely needed some LF support. I've found flat to 30Hz is needed to 99.9% of my music, but that includes some dubstep. Since 30Hz will require a lot of drivers and power, I have little choice but to call it good for now.
Happy to do some impedance sweeps. Would you like LF, HF or both?
I'll also post up some EQ and crossover settings if anyone else ever uses these drivers.
Chris
PS - I'm still considering trying my pair of JBL GTO1214 drivers for a PA sub. There's a lot of Vd there... 😀
PPS - if I block one of the ports on the Deltamax cabs, I get 32Hz port tuning. Takes 8dB of EQ to get flat-to-30 performance, but I think port chuffing will be a serious problem. Still, that's an option for lower power use. Max SPL is limited, but still loud. Not PA loud any more, though...
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No need to go out of your way on my account with impedance sweeps, just do what you feel like doing. They would be fun to see, tho.
I concur that blocking one of the vents for live sound would be bad. You have too little Sv in the 1st place for pushing subwoofer frequencies. The tradeoff for bass extension isn't worth the sag in response where it counts. 60Hz is decent for a top box. At some point, you'll start asking too much from a single 15 per side, separated, & hoisted off the ground.
In my SR system, I roll off my subs below 40Hz to save amp headroom & to not dim the venue's lights with every kick hit. 30Hz is fine for home theater, but it's just rumble for live sound. Is a 30Hz response common in dubstep?
Those JBL drivers look like car audio woofers with an SPL of 90dB. I'm sure they'll add some presence up close, but might not have a lot of impact as you move away from the stack.
I concur that blocking one of the vents for live sound would be bad. You have too little Sv in the 1st place for pushing subwoofer frequencies. The tradeoff for bass extension isn't worth the sag in response where it counts. 60Hz is decent for a top box. At some point, you'll start asking too much from a single 15 per side, separated, & hoisted off the ground.
In my SR system, I roll off my subs below 40Hz to save amp headroom & to not dim the venue's lights with every kick hit. 30Hz is fine for home theater, but it's just rumble for live sound. Is a 30Hz response common in dubstep?
Those JBL drivers look like car audio woofers with an SPL of 90dB. I'm sure they'll add some presence up close, but might not have a lot of impact as you move away from the stack.
The biggest gig I've done so far was outdoors in a marquee for 50-100 people, as part of a local festival. That used these bass drivers as subs, with the Das 12"s as tops. PV2600 bridged into paralleled subs (1300w a side), and 600w/ch for the tops gave an impressive amount of noise, given that I moved the lot in a taxi.
For the time being, I think I'll be fine - this is for touring small music festivals, pubs, and the occasional wedding. Of course, there's also party use - I'm a uni student.
The first Skrillex track I ran through Audacity has a big peak at 36Hz, with stuff lower down at 28, 19, and 10Hz.
The JBL drivers are car audio ones, but a 12" that'll do ~28mm p/p excursion would displace a decent amount of air. Similar to a LAB12. One day I'll get around to a decent 35Hz TH (or similar) for them. Hopefully I can get useful sensitivity out of them - power handling isn't fantastic.
I'm back at lectures these days, so impedance sweeps might take a while depending on how the timetable works out.
Gotta run, prep to do.
Chris
For the time being, I think I'll be fine - this is for touring small music festivals, pubs, and the occasional wedding. Of course, there's also party use - I'm a uni student.
The first Skrillex track I ran through Audacity has a big peak at 36Hz, with stuff lower down at 28, 19, and 10Hz.
The JBL drivers are car audio ones, but a 12" that'll do ~28mm p/p excursion would displace a decent amount of air. Similar to a LAB12. One day I'll get around to a decent 35Hz TH (or similar) for them. Hopefully I can get useful sensitivity out of them - power handling isn't fantastic.
I'm back at lectures these days, so impedance sweeps might take a while depending on how the timetable works out.
Gotta run, prep to do.
Chris
Should've mentioned: the LF drivers are held in with clamps. The original driver cutouts are a tad large for these drivers, so the driver screw holes go right through.
Currently, I've got them plugged up with blu-tack, but I'd like a better long-term solution.
Maybe I could make a pair of wooden donuts, glue them inside, widen the baffle cutout and have the drivers sunk into the baffle?
I suppose plumber's putty or draught excluder (for door frames etc) would be possible, too.
Chris
Currently, I've got them plugged up with blu-tack, but I'd like a better long-term solution.
Maybe I could make a pair of wooden donuts, glue them inside, widen the baffle cutout and have the drivers sunk into the baffle?
I suppose plumber's putty or draught excluder (for door frames etc) would be possible, too.
Chris
The wooden donuts sounds like the best solution, use screws or industrial staples along with the wood glue, & make sure you're not compromising the net Vb too much. I've used weather stripping foam in place of an absent gasket before, it isn't the best but it'll do in a pinch. If you ever pull the driver, replace the foam to be safe.
Cheers, Joe.
The additional spacing off the front grille would be nice, too. I'll figure out how to widen the cutout (the baffle is sunk in), and go from there. It'd likely be a lot of sanding, since I can't see how I'd get power tools in there.
They were used in anger Saturday night at a house party. The bass drivers definitely need more power: one channel of the PV2600 a side wasn't really enough: the DDT limiter kicked in fairly often, but I made sure it didn't stay engaged for prolonged periods.
Chris
The additional spacing off the front grille would be nice, too. I'll figure out how to widen the cutout (the baffle is sunk in), and go from there. It'd likely be a lot of sanding, since I can't see how I'd get power tools in there.
They were used in anger Saturday night at a house party. The bass drivers definitely need more power: one channel of the PV2600 a side wasn't really enough: the DDT limiter kicked in fairly often, but I made sure it didn't stay engaged for prolonged periods.
Chris
Ressurecting an old thread...
Trying to get more mid-high dispersion out of these cabinets, as I've found they can't do wide rooms at gigs.
The CDs I have are EV DH1a, which are 2" exit, but can be taken down to 1.4" exit. I'm using a 60x40 horn and crossing over at 1.1kHz-ish to the 15".
I think I need to cross lower, on a wider-dispersion horn.
I've been looking at a few horns - they'd all require going medieval on the baffle, but that's okay.
RCF HF96 Throat: 1.4", 90X60, 250X250mm, Cut-off 500Hz from RCF 50.92
Fane ELH-006 39.85 IN STOCK (16 Feb 2015)
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XR1496.PDF
The RCF is immediately favourite, as it loads down to a very low frequency, and requires minimum woodwork. However, I can't see how the "1-1.4" horn adapter" works.
The Fane is the cheapest of the bunch, and also loads to a rather low frequency. 70x50 dispersion isn't much better than the 60x40 I have at the moment, though.
The 18Sound horn is most expensive, so I'd only consider that if the other two really wouldn't do what I'm after.
TIA for any guidance
Chris
Trying to get more mid-high dispersion out of these cabinets, as I've found they can't do wide rooms at gigs.
The CDs I have are EV DH1a, which are 2" exit, but can be taken down to 1.4" exit. I'm using a 60x40 horn and crossing over at 1.1kHz-ish to the 15".
I think I need to cross lower, on a wider-dispersion horn.
I've been looking at a few horns - they'd all require going medieval on the baffle, but that's okay.
RCF HF96 Throat: 1.4", 90X60, 250X250mm, Cut-off 500Hz from RCF 50.92
Fane ELH-006 39.85 IN STOCK (16 Feb 2015)
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XR1496.PDF
The RCF is immediately favourite, as it loads down to a very low frequency, and requires minimum woodwork. However, I can't see how the "1-1.4" horn adapter" works.
The Fane is the cheapest of the bunch, and also loads to a rather low frequency. 70x50 dispersion isn't much better than the 60x40 I have at the moment, though.
The 18Sound horn is most expensive, so I'd only consider that if the other two really wouldn't do what I'm after.
TIA for any guidance
Chris
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