I've read most online opinions on wiring crossovers and crossover-to-terminal connections, but I'm about to build my crossovers for a pair of heritage-quality DIY speakers (two-way), and I'd like the opinions OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN AUDIO QUALITY:
1) Do you think that wire selection makes a difference in component-to-component connections in crossovers when direct component lead-to-component lead soldering is not possible? If so, do you have recommendations?
2) Do you think that wire selection makes a difference in crossover-to-speaker terminal connections when the required wire length is less than 18"? If so, do you have recommendations?
I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not looking for answers from those who already believe that all well-built and appropriately-sized interconnects and speaker cables sound the same. In other words, I'd like to hear from those who essentially say "Yes, I think that wires make a difference, but in this case, don't worry about it," OR those who say "Yes, I think that wires make a difference, and I'd recommend you use this in a crossover..."
Thanks!
1) Do you think that wire selection makes a difference in component-to-component connections in crossovers when direct component lead-to-component lead soldering is not possible? If so, do you have recommendations?
2) Do you think that wire selection makes a difference in crossover-to-speaker terminal connections when the required wire length is less than 18"? If so, do you have recommendations?
I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not looking for answers from those who already believe that all well-built and appropriately-sized interconnects and speaker cables sound the same. In other words, I'd like to hear from those who essentially say "Yes, I think that wires make a difference, but in this case, don't worry about it," OR those who say "Yes, I think that wires make a difference, and I'd recommend you use this in a crossover..."
Thanks!
You come to a site where people know of what they speak yet you ask them not to tell you the truth. I think you need a different site to satisfy your needs.
With due respect, Cal, I came to a forum with a significant diversity of opinions on all things audio.
My point was that I didn't want to get a bunch of people saying "wire is wire" and clogging up the thread, but rather hoped to have people who do believe that wires can affect sound give me their thoughts on whether different wires in a crossover might have any effect.
I am perfectly open to hearing "No, it won't make a difference within a crossover or from a crossover to amp or drivers" from people who won't automatically just give the same answer to whether component interconnects or speaker cables have audible impacts.
Osvaldo's response was exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see.
My point was that I didn't want to get a bunch of people saying "wire is wire" and clogging up the thread, but rather hoped to have people who do believe that wires can affect sound give me their thoughts on whether different wires in a crossover might have any effect.
I am perfectly open to hearing "No, it won't make a difference within a crossover or from a crossover to amp or drivers" from people who won't automatically just give the same answer to whether component interconnects or speaker cables have audible impacts.
Osvaldo's response was exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see.
belief was superceded by science based knowledge around 3 centuries ago
For short interconnection wires, usually good quality stranded copper wire of a sufficient gauge is fine. For wires from amp to speakers, cabling may make a distinctly noticeable difference especially depending on length. Also there may be some benefit from putting passive crossover components near the amp and running separate wires to each driver. Ideally the amp should be very close to the speaker so that wouldn't make much difference. One of the reasons why dual mono blocks are nice. At least that's what my professional high end designer friends say. And I have good reason to believe they know what's real and what isn't.
It definitely makes a measurable difference if you correctly size each wire between each connection in the signal chain, but whether you can hear it or not is a 'just depends' situation, so short of a real 'amp sucker', the oft recommended 18 ga lamp cord wire is normally way overkill.
Normally of far more importance is the termination and why UL/CSA, etc., testing is rigorous/brutal with ring tongue cold weld (properly crimped) connections with the appropriate flat/lock washers, mounting studs for the intended industrial electrical power and controls app the clear winner at least till 8.31.'94 when I retired. Soldering wasn't even on the charts except for when used in certain apps for silver soldering already properly clamped lugs to bus bars to seal the joints against any corrosion.
One of those subjects to steer clear of.
I only go on what my ears tell me, so I use decent quality cable. You need to make your own decision. I, or others, cannot answer for you 😉
I only go on what my ears tell me, so I use decent quality cable. You need to make your own decision. I, or others, cannot answer for you 😉
I don't know I qualify here, but I can understand being careful in making the right choices for your audio well-being.
I once measured different speaker cables for my line arrays, and did find measurable differences (mainly in the upper end extension).
The cables with lots of fine flexible strands (of OFC copper) differed (as in: performed worse) from the cables with less, but thicker strands and solid core copper wire as used in electrical wiring in houses. It resulted in quite some discussion at the time and aside from me, getting rid of very old and corroded speaker wire, I just went with the best performer in measurements (thicker, but fewer multi strand wire).
So when it was time to create some crossovers, I decided to use the solid core copper wire as a base.
Making sure the inductors were spread far apart (and orientation rotated), as that would make a larger difference than any wire used.
I used measurements of these crossovers to make sure they performed the same as my simulations predicted:
This is a set of measurements of 2 sets of 4 crossovers (and a couple of notch filters) from 2 different speakers. Id say they are matched pretty good in performance 😉.
The crossovers and notch filters used in one speaker:
P.S. All I tried were of the copper wire variety. I was just looking for some peace of mind. 😉
I once measured different speaker cables for my line arrays, and did find measurable differences (mainly in the upper end extension).
The cables with lots of fine flexible strands (of OFC copper) differed (as in: performed worse) from the cables with less, but thicker strands and solid core copper wire as used in electrical wiring in houses. It resulted in quite some discussion at the time and aside from me, getting rid of very old and corroded speaker wire, I just went with the best performer in measurements (thicker, but fewer multi strand wire).
So when it was time to create some crossovers, I decided to use the solid core copper wire as a base.
Making sure the inductors were spread far apart (and orientation rotated), as that would make a larger difference than any wire used.
I used measurements of these crossovers to make sure they performed the same as my simulations predicted:
This is a set of measurements of 2 sets of 4 crossovers (and a couple of notch filters) from 2 different speakers. Id say they are matched pretty good in performance 😉.
The crossovers and notch filters used in one speaker:
P.S. All I tried were of the copper wire variety. I was just looking for some peace of mind. 😉
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@Zuman ..Good quality OFC wire...thicker gauge is better for mid/bass cones as it provides the necessary "oomph".....I initially used thin gauge wire in my rebuild of my speakers & wasn't happy with the mid/bass...swapped to a thicker gauge wire & it sounded better...& thats just the internal cable as the external cable (Atlas Equator MKII OFC bi-wire speaker cable) remained unchanged throughout...
My build:-
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bronze-bx2-speakers-2010-2015yr-model.388989/
Quotes from my build:-
"For internal wiring I used silicone insulated, 1000V, “test/measurement” OFC multistrand wire called “Silivolt-1V” made by MC/Staubli as its highly flexible & soldering iron resistant. Initially I used the 0.75mm CSA version, it being a similar CSA to the original 18AWG wiring, & to test a theory regarding cable CSA.
As I initially used 0.75mm CSA (18AWG) cable I did notice that the much lower bass/drum notes, although very clear, lacked body, or “oomph”. So, I remade all the internal wiring with the thicker 2.5mm CSA (13AWG) version & retested. Now the lower drums & bass guitars had the required conviction they needed without sounding “boomy”! I did not notice any difference to the mid or higher frequency notes with this cable swap, which was to be expected. As the maximum total length of internal wiring on any driver is 800mm, the resistance of the 0.75mm CSA is therefore 0.0208 Ohm, & on the 2.5mm CSA its 0.006384 Ohm, according to the manufacturer’s data sheets. These seem insignificant amounts, but there is an audible difference!"
My build:-
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bronze-bx2-speakers-2010-2015yr-model.388989/
Quotes from my build:-
"For internal wiring I used silicone insulated, 1000V, “test/measurement” OFC multistrand wire called “Silivolt-1V” made by MC/Staubli as its highly flexible & soldering iron resistant. Initially I used the 0.75mm CSA version, it being a similar CSA to the original 18AWG wiring, & to test a theory regarding cable CSA.
As I initially used 0.75mm CSA (18AWG) cable I did notice that the much lower bass/drum notes, although very clear, lacked body, or “oomph”. So, I remade all the internal wiring with the thicker 2.5mm CSA (13AWG) version & retested. Now the lower drums & bass guitars had the required conviction they needed without sounding “boomy”! I did not notice any difference to the mid or higher frequency notes with this cable swap, which was to be expected. As the maximum total length of internal wiring on any driver is 800mm, the resistance of the 0.75mm CSA is therefore 0.0208 Ohm, & on the 2.5mm CSA its 0.006384 Ohm, according to the manufacturer’s data sheets. These seem insignificant amounts, but there is an audible difference!"
Depends on your musical preferences: For Gothic, black coated cables are mandatory. For Heavy Metal, only use copper clad lead wires. For classical music, wires spun by young, blonde virgins from oxide free silver fibers at cloudless full moon nights are the one and only thing.
Is this the kind of answer you're after?
Best regards!
Of course. What else 😛? Erm, wait, maybe WiFi cable?
Best regards and a happy new year without superstition!
Best regards and a happy new year without superstition!
Seems that can happen alright. For one consideration, copper oxide tends to form on the surface of individual strands. When currents flow longitudinally in a wire, eddy currents are created that flow laterally across strands. Since copper oxide can be rather nonlinear, as some other surface contaminants can be, having current flowing through some nonlinearity, even it is is small, may be something some people can audibly notice under some conditions. That's not the only possible factor, but if it is a factor then using individually insulated strands may help (e.g. magnet wire strands that are individually enameled).
Beyond that, some folks feel pretty certain that wire dielectric absorption, dielectric triboelectric effects, etc., could in some cases affect sound for particularly sensitive individuals. Of course there is always some threshold of audibility for such effects, a level at which 50% of the population can't hear it, and the other 50% of the population still can hear it. Seems most people (>50%) seem to feel they belong in the most sensitive 50%, just as most people feel they are better than average drivers.
Having said the above, the words should be tempered by saying that blind listening is much harder that sighted listening. When differences are real, blind discrimination of differences can be learned with some practice. At least statistically that appears to be so. However, it can take a fair amount of practice effort to get good at it. Also, doing the same blind discrimination over and over again 50 or 100 times in a row to statistical significance (as in ABX) can require very sustained and mentally fatiguing concentration, especially when differences are small. Nonetheless, it is good and sobering to practice. Find a friend to help you blind and exercise your skills if you really care, would be my advice. Also, be careful about adding test circuitry, even relays, which in some cases can add distortion, and thus to some degree mask small audible differences in an otherwise good system.
All the foregoing IMHO only. No claim is made to the effect compelling scientific evidence exists as of today in support my personal opinions 🙂
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I feel the wire closest to the drivers makes the most difference in sound. the further you get away the less affect the wire has. Inverse square law.
I recommend solid core for bass and thinner solid core for highs. The wire inside the voice coil is solid core. Wire choice can change the sound, wires are tone controls. But if you don't believe this then ignore this post. 🙂
I recommend solid core for bass and thinner solid core for highs. The wire inside the voice coil is solid core. Wire choice can change the sound, wires are tone controls. But if you don't believe this then ignore this post. 🙂
Another take on Dunning-Kreuger:
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/dunning-kruger-effect-probably-not-real
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/dunning-kruger-effect-probably-not-real
I'll end my involvement with this thread now, with apologies to all for having started it so clumsily.
A significant portion of my Ph.D. work back in the mid-70s has been proven wrong since my team and I did it. I'd say that we were much more arrogant then than we are today. Today, I find most of my colleagues far more open-minded than we were fifty years ago. After all, we've been so wrong about so much. Of course, realising that has helped us understand so much more and do so many wonderful things.
The best example, of course, is the discomfort with which quantum mechanics was regarded during its first couple of decades. But even then, most physicists knew that their greatest challenge was personal reconciliation of their "backgrounds" with others' work.
I started this thread with the hope that people would share their observations, and that they would help me make a decision before I seal up a carefully- and lovingly-crafted pair of wooden boxes. In other words, for this specific case, I intend to make my bed and then lie in it. It's a very local decision and I'm ok with that.
Thanks to all who provided useful information! And to others - please - don't ever think that you know it all. That's even more sad than it is embarrassing.
A significant portion of my Ph.D. work back in the mid-70s has been proven wrong since my team and I did it. I'd say that we were much more arrogant then than we are today. Today, I find most of my colleagues far more open-minded than we were fifty years ago. After all, we've been so wrong about so much. Of course, realising that has helped us understand so much more and do so many wonderful things.
The best example, of course, is the discomfort with which quantum mechanics was regarded during its first couple of decades. But even then, most physicists knew that their greatest challenge was personal reconciliation of their "backgrounds" with others' work.
I started this thread with the hope that people would share their observations, and that they would help me make a decision before I seal up a carefully- and lovingly-crafted pair of wooden boxes. In other words, for this specific case, I intend to make my bed and then lie in it. It's a very local decision and I'm ok with that.
Thanks to all who provided useful information! And to others - please - don't ever think that you know it all. That's even more sad than it is embarrassing.