Over the last couple of years, I've really gotten into doing DIY projects with four pair of monoblock amplifiers (tube and SS), a few preamps (SS and tube) and a couple pair of speakers. I'd like to try a DAC as my next project. I studied EE in college but spent my career doing computer graphics and super computers, not audio electronics (or much of any analog for that matter), and have spent the last 30 years in management and doing software. But I'm comfortable with electronics and am now a fairly experienced DIY builder.
I have a few decent commercial DACs (Denafrips Terminator Plus, Auralic Vega G2, Schiit Yggdrasil), so I'm looking for a DIY DAC project that will hold it's own against these commercial products. I'm not looking for a budget project. I was considering building one of Doede Douma's 8-stack DDDacs, but these are not currently available. This seemed like the kind of project I was looking for where there is a lot of room to customize the build.
I'd prefer not to try to tackle my own PCBs at this point, although I'm sure I'll get there in the next couple years. I've spent some time searching the forum, but it's difficult to find projects like this. The one's I've come across that look somewhat interesting are the Twisted Pear ESS based DACs and the Soekris R2R DACs, but neither of these really leave a lot of room for customization.
I'd love to get other suggestions for projects to look at.
Thanks.
I have a few decent commercial DACs (Denafrips Terminator Plus, Auralic Vega G2, Schiit Yggdrasil), so I'm looking for a DIY DAC project that will hold it's own against these commercial products. I'm not looking for a budget project. I was considering building one of Doede Douma's 8-stack DDDacs, but these are not currently available. This seemed like the kind of project I was looking for where there is a lot of room to customize the build.
I'd prefer not to try to tackle my own PCBs at this point, although I'm sure I'll get there in the next couple years. I've spent some time searching the forum, but it's difficult to find projects like this. The one's I've come across that look somewhat interesting are the Twisted Pear ESS based DACs and the Soekris R2R DACs, but neither of these really leave a lot of room for customization.
I'd love to get other suggestions for projects to look at.
Thanks.
Designing and building DACs in the several thousand dollar class requires a lot expertise. PCB design would be only part of it. Unfortunately, there are no DIY projects here to make it easier. If you are interested, there is a service manual for a Marantz SA-10 player in my dropbox at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0p1s1sew5inxlmu/SA-10, SA-10S1 Service Manual Ver 5.pdf?dl=0 ...The manual contains schematics and parts lists, but the actual DAC part of it is programmed into FPGAs and a CPLD. That said, the output stage could be used with a variety of DAC chips probably without too much alteration. Unfortunately, the AKM factory fire made some of the best DAC chips unavailable for now. An interesting chip that I think may have some potential if used with a custom output stage is: Rohm BD34301EKV. Also, there is an evaluation board for that chip if you wanted to play around experimenting with design variations. In stock form I don't think the evaluation board sounds that good though. However, there is a Japanese $18k CD player that uses the Rohm chips in a dual mono configuration. The player is said to sound very good, although not quite the best of the best.
Regarding your interest in customization, could you be more specific about what you would like to have? Is there anything you wouldn't like? Since you have spent some money on fairly high end commercial DACs, is sound quality high on your list for a diy project? I ask since some of the DAC boards you mentioned looking at may not sound as good as some of the DACs you already have.
Regarding your interest in customization, could you be more specific about what you would like to have? Is there anything you wouldn't like? Since you have spent some money on fairly high end commercial DACs, is sound quality high on your list for a diy project? I ask since some of the DAC boards you mentioned looking at may not sound as good as some of the DACs you already have.
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How did you determine that? If it's through another one of your uncontrolled subjective auditions, it's a moot point.
Thanks for the information. I'll check out the Rohm chip - I hadn't heard of that before. I may just wait until the AKM parts are available again - from what I've read, these are highly regarded parts that allow a lot of implementation flexibility.
Regarding customization, I'm thinking power supplies, analog I/V stage and output buffers, high-precision clocks, input selection/buffering/reclocking, and user-interface/display.
I am concerned about sound quality. I use the Terminator Plus in my primary system. To some extent, I'm hoping to build something that either has some unique qualities not provided by the Denafrips DAC, or generally sounds as good so I can replace it. I'd love to get to a fully DIY system at some point if for no other reason than my personal satisfaction.
My primary system has two DIY open baffle servo-controlled subwoofers, and I have DIY tube traps in my front corners. The combination seems to work well, but I am considering another sealed-box sub or two that I can place nearer to the rear of the room to add a bit more grunt in the 20-30Hz range and further smooth out the room modes.
I'm fine with subjective impressions. IMHO - measurements are a great tool for tracking down problems in design and ensuring consistency in production, but I have not found much correlation in the measurements typically reported and my enjoyment of the sound produced.
Regarding clocks, Andrea Mori makes the very best. They are ones used by Doede for his personal dac. For reclocking, you might want to acquire a Reclock_Pi board from Iancanada to study. IIUC he did a lot of testing and measurements in an effort to perfect it. His FIFO_Pi is also a sucessful product now in its 3rd generation. Some people use FIFI_Pi as a part of their diy dac projects. Regarding power supplies, and decoupling caps, digital circuitry and analog circuitry seem to perform best if treated separately. Clocks, PLLs, ASRC PPLLs, etc. may be considered as analog RF.
Then you want to focus on speakers and room acoustics more because that's where the real bottleneck is in sound reproduction. DAC should be your least concern. To confirm, just compare the distortion level difference between typical middle of the road DAC and the best speaker you know of. You will see a HUGE difference.
It's way overkill. What good is it to buy the clocks to reduce the distortion /noise even further than what's already below audible threshold in standard DACs? It may massage someone's ego when bragging about it but it provides no audible benefit.
Thanks. I think I remember reading about this clock in the LONG thread on the DDDAC. And of course IanCanada's various projects all seem to be highly regarded and I plan to leverage his expertise as much as possible.
I agree that speakers and room acoustics have the biggest impact on sound quality which is why I've already invested a lot in these areas. My 29'x17' dedicated listening room is very well treated with QRD diffusors, bass traps, absorbing panels, ceiling cloud, etc. And while I'm very happy with the sound of my current speaker system, I'm already working on an upgrade.
I want to build a DAC because this is the last component in my system that I haven't tried to build. I do DIY because I enjoy the challenge and satisfaction from completing a project that sounds great, particularly compared to well-regarded commercial products. I don't do DIY because I'm trying to save money. I suspect in many cases, I could purchase a comparable commercial product for less than I end up spending on my own builds.
I don't believe all DACs sound the same. The DACs I currently own all sound a bit different, and I've heard DACs that sound appreciably better than the ones I own (albeit at much higher retail cost). So I know there is room for improvement.
The difference you've noticed is most likely stemming from level difference when comparing. You can hear a difference from the same DAC just by changing the listening level. There are many DAC comparisons published online, Matrix being one of them, where the listeners couldn't distinguish the difference by ears between cheap DAC and high end DAC in level matched blind tests. DAC has been a matured technology for over 20 years. Even cheap DACs are audibly transparent (hi-fi). Anyone telling you that spending more on DAC improves sound these days is trying to sell something.
Best speakers IMHO for a dedicated listening room are made by Sound Lab. REL subs can be used to augment the lowest octave for organ pedal tones and LF ambience. https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/ Speaker placement and room treatment is a bit different for this type of speaker. Distortion is much lower than for electromagnetic motor speakers. Imaging, including stereo illusion of soundstage, can be unsurpassed if set up is optimized.
What about vinyl? or tape? For people who want and can afford better MM there is the latest optical tech. It can sound better than MM, and with the best recordings it can also sound better in some ways than most DACs playing CD quality recordings. https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ They have some basic info on how to design your own preamp for it too. ...Much more could be said about a vinyl setup, of course...
Regarding Iancanada products, IMHO they are not all equally desirable. Some I would use, others maybe not so much. His best stuff such as FIFO_Pi keeps getting better and better with each new version.
What about vinyl? or tape? For people who want and can afford better MM there is the latest optical tech. It can sound better than MM, and with the best recordings it can also sound better in some ways than most DACs playing CD quality recordings. https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ They have some basic info on how to design your own preamp for it too. ...Much more could be said about a vinyl setup, of course...
Regarding Iancanada products, IMHO they are not all equally desirable. Some I would use, others maybe not so much. His best stuff such as FIFO_Pi keeps getting better and better with each new version.
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Btw I do not understand the difference between pi reclocker and pi fifo ? As both are reclocked...maybe the reclocker is a cheap without fifo ?
There is Allo Kali clock as well...
There is Allo Kali clock as well...
Reclock_Pi is intended as a final reclock after FIFO_Pi. The final reclock has cleaner power for the reclocking circuitry, and among other things it is designed to minimize the ground bounce observed at the output of the built-in FIFO_Pi reclock stage.
Allo Kali uses NDK SDA clocks. They are very good clocks and bargain-priced, but not in the same performance class as Andrea's clocks.
Allo Kali uses NDK SDA clocks. They are very good clocks and bargain-priced, but not in the same performance class as Andrea's clocks.
What about something different ?
MarcelIvg tube dac ? People noticed very good sounds in testimonials.
Or the Ad1862 dac thread with tube outputstage with hybrid mu follower output. So just one double triode tube.
This one is very good. And with a Raspberry Pi you can upsample before the nos dac and Fir filtering for the room! Just lego, all the pcbs exist from the digital frontends to the output... Just a good tube is tricky to source with 1 mA current dac chip like the very good ad1862 dac chip, your countryfellow nice member Pady is sourcing genuine chips at Rochester.
MarcelIvg tube dac ? People noticed very good sounds in testimonials.
Or the Ad1862 dac thread with tube outputstage with hybrid mu follower output. So just one double triode tube.
This one is very good. And with a Raspberry Pi you can upsample before the nos dac and Fir filtering for the room! Just lego, all the pcbs exist from the digital frontends to the output... Just a good tube is tricky to source with 1 mA current dac chip like the very good ad1862 dac chip, your countryfellow nice member Pady is sourcing genuine chips at Rochester.
So it reclocks a first reclocking from the first board after the fifo ???? Since the fifo it should be time aligned and isolated already ? IanCanada like to stack boards...more pcbs 😉
I still have fifo Pi first edition but did not follow the long enhancing thread. I have not finisheed Sc Cut from andrea but supply chain is fed up me. I have good At cut 5 mhz as well.... But all those wires.... I dream about simplicity, just one ic... I will end with a commercial unit oneday.
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I have heard the Sound Lab speakers - very nice. I'm a fan of open baffle/dipole speakers. My current speakers are GR-Research NX-Oticas with stereo triple-driver open baffle servo subs. I really like the natural sound from the open baffle subs. I've been an audiophile for 50 years and have owned a lot of fairly nice speakers (hign-end Duntechs, Revels, Magnepans and others) and the GR-Research speakers in my current room are my favorites.
I am planning to build a pair of open baffle line-sources using six Bohlender-Graebener NEO10 drivers and sixteen NEO3s per side. I have collected all the drivers and crossover parts (using high-quality copper caps and foil inductors), and am just waiting for the cabinet panels to be CNC cut for me.
I gave up vinyl when my kids were toddlers and I was moving around several times for my job. I regret selling my large record collection in the early 90s but it was just sitting in the garage taking up space at the time. Getting back into vinyl is not worth the investment to me (although I can appreciate how good a top-end analog system can sound). I really like finding new music from streaming sources, and would rather spend the money furthering my digital system and building more DIY projects.
In addition to the FIFO-Pi and Reclock-Pi, I am intrigued by Ian's battery power supplies but will probably stick with mains power.
I will check these out. Thanks.
FIFO_Pi has a reclocker that uses a multi-channel D-flip flop chip. Its on shared power with some other circuitry. Then the I2S signals must exit through RPi GPIO bus type connectors. Its pretty good, but not the best he could do. Ian designed Reclock-Pi as his ultimate, final, very best reclock. Its optional for people who want it.
Some of the other boards and devices ian makes such as isolator_Pi and shield_Pi are to correct radiated noise coupling problems found between RPi and some of the other boards. They are also to shield other radiated noise coupling between some of ian's boards. Those problems were found after starting with RPi stacks as a DAC platform. Given popularity of the platform, some later improvements for it benefited SQ enough to justify their use.
Some of the other boards and devices ian makes such as isolator_Pi and shield_Pi are to correct radiated noise coupling problems found between RPi and some of the other boards. They are also to shield other radiated noise coupling between some of ian's boards. Those problems were found after starting with RPi stacks as a DAC platform. Given popularity of the platform, some later improvements for it benefited SQ enough to justify their use.
Regarding Marcel tube DAC, I haven't heard it. Nor have I heard of anyone doing a direct comparison between it and something like Holo May DAC. If I have a concern with Marcel's approach it would be some of the use of opamps, and use of ferrites in audio filter inductors. He also used a 27Mhz clock for good reasons, but I can't find a good audio quality clock at that nonstandard frequency. If enough people wanted to meet MOQ for Andrea's clock crystals, he might be able to make a custom 27MHz clock.
Regarding battery verses mains power, the main benefit of batteries is elimination of power-related ground loops. The other benefit is that batteries prevent the coupling of AC line EMI/RFI into grounds and power supplies. Sometimes RFI will find its way around power supply filters through stray coupling. Every system has insidious ground loops and AC line noise issues. Sound can generally be audibly improved by cleaning them up. That said, batteries aren't the only good solution. A used "Monster HTPS 7000 MkII" from ebay is well worth the cost for someone who can afford it. Instant SQ improvement for most systems. Only that particular model, it was the best unit available and besides it was designed by a couple of diyaudio forum members for Monster 🙂
The only other real good clean power solution were the old PS Audio Regenerators. They clean up AC line noise maybe better than anything. The newer regenerators use a different technology which not everyone prefers.
The only other real good clean power solution were the old PS Audio Regenerators. They clean up AC line noise maybe better than anything. The newer regenerators use a different technology which not everyone prefers.
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I currently use one of the new PS Audio regenerators on my front end components. It does help, particularly during the day in the summer when the mains power seems to be noisier than usual. But I understand that the new topology is designed to be more efficient so the output is not as isolated from the mains as the older approach.
My preamps and interconnects are all fully balanced which helps with the ground loops and everything is connected to the same dedicated mains circuit, but I agree this doesn't totally eliminate the problems.