Good Morning Folks,
I'm new to the forum, but not DIY in general, as I've completed many projects in my time (more over the last year).
I'm looking into building some components of a Hi-Fi system.
I'm trying to find the sweet spot for the cost of components for various pieces of a high quality music listening experience. As a DIY'er I understand the value of creating something wonderful with my own two hands, but if the components and end result can be stupendous, well that's just a little cherry-on-top in the ol' pride department.
As this is the Multi-Way sub-forum, I'll use some tower speakers as an example. There are two well-established kits out there, the Amiga by Paul Cramody and the Bordeaux by Lou Holtz. The first is a $300 kit and the second is a $1600 kit. Though I know that the $ value is not a perfect analog for quality, I also fully expect the components in a $1600 kit to outperform those in a $300 kit in all(most) situations. The question is, where is the sweet spot?
If a $300 kit sounds closest to a $200 dollar pair that I can buy off the shelf, then the building experience better be rad. On the other hand, is the $1600 kit 5 times more awesome than the cheaper one? Maybe? Is it better than a $5000 pair off the shelf? It's a bit hard for me to tell, because my typical review process is hampered by DIY builds being hard to listen to 'in the wild' and reviews being much more sparse. That's not even getting into the objective/subjective debate on what makes a component 'worth it' in the music listening space.
I just know that there's some point where it doesn't make sense to spend the extra $100 to move up to the next component tier for above-average-joe-woodworker/solderer. Hence, I've come to you for advice.
I figured I'd start with an established kit as opposed to designing and building everything from the ground up. I just want to build something beautiful that sounds truly incredible while maximizing the utility of every hour and every dollar.
I plan to pair these speakers with a raspberry pi streamer (digione signature, perhaps) a DAC, and a fancy new purifi audio 1ET400 Amp. I live in a smallish space.
If you've made it this far, I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
Regards,
Trague
tl;dr
I want to build something dope, but what're the right amount of dollars /effort to spend? $100? $500? $1200?? $5000!? $10000!?!?!
I'm new to the forum, but not DIY in general, as I've completed many projects in my time (more over the last year).
I'm looking into building some components of a Hi-Fi system.
I'm trying to find the sweet spot for the cost of components for various pieces of a high quality music listening experience. As a DIY'er I understand the value of creating something wonderful with my own two hands, but if the components and end result can be stupendous, well that's just a little cherry-on-top in the ol' pride department.
As this is the Multi-Way sub-forum, I'll use some tower speakers as an example. There are two well-established kits out there, the Amiga by Paul Cramody and the Bordeaux by Lou Holtz. The first is a $300 kit and the second is a $1600 kit. Though I know that the $ value is not a perfect analog for quality, I also fully expect the components in a $1600 kit to outperform those in a $300 kit in all(most) situations. The question is, where is the sweet spot?
If a $300 kit sounds closest to a $200 dollar pair that I can buy off the shelf, then the building experience better be rad. On the other hand, is the $1600 kit 5 times more awesome than the cheaper one? Maybe? Is it better than a $5000 pair off the shelf? It's a bit hard for me to tell, because my typical review process is hampered by DIY builds being hard to listen to 'in the wild' and reviews being much more sparse. That's not even getting into the objective/subjective debate on what makes a component 'worth it' in the music listening space.
I just know that there's some point where it doesn't make sense to spend the extra $100 to move up to the next component tier for above-average-joe-woodworker/solderer. Hence, I've come to you for advice.
I figured I'd start with an established kit as opposed to designing and building everything from the ground up. I just want to build something beautiful that sounds truly incredible while maximizing the utility of every hour and every dollar.
I plan to pair these speakers with a raspberry pi streamer (digione signature, perhaps) a DAC, and a fancy new purifi audio 1ET400 Amp. I live in a smallish space.
If you've made it this far, I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
Regards,
Trague
tl;dr
I want to build something dope, but what're the right amount of dollars /effort to spend? $100? $500? $1200?? $5000!? $10000!?!?!
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If playing from an RPi or other computer, usually better not to use SPDIF into a dac. Better to plug a good USB dac into an RPi (or PC) USB interface. If you like Allo, they have some USB nice dacs to choose from. Easier to get better sound that way and more options for DSD (if you ever want to try it).
Don't know about your speaker question, not familiar with either product. Maybe if you can provide web links to each kit you are considering that will make it easier for readers to look them up.
Don't know about your speaker question, not familiar with either product. Maybe if you can provide web links to each kit you are considering that will make it easier for readers to look them up.
The sweet spot, the brass ring, getting the most joy from each dollar spent...chasing it is one of the more entertaining aspects of this sport, but can you really win or is it just chasing the dragon?
First is a speaker kit going to give you the maximum diy experience? Maybe depending on how much you like to work with wood. If it were me I would build some FH from plans or from a flat pack (well reviewed, large knowledge base and so many have been made you might even be able to hear a pair) then you just have to convince Mark audio to increase sensitivity by 3dB across the board but maybe that’s a crusade for another day.
Do you need all the bells and whistles and extruded aluminum that comes with a Naim streamer or are you in an rPI moode? The sweet spot is a moving target, if you have more time then money to spend great sounds can still be had from the used market but while finding a great deal is nice I don’t think it gives you the satisfaction of building it yourself, (almost) regardless of cost.
And now here’s the Kithara, the multi-way I will use as a starting point for my next global conquest, essentially an lx-mini on steroids with an AMT playing the role of the full range driver.
Oskar Heil Speakers
First is a speaker kit going to give you the maximum diy experience? Maybe depending on how much you like to work with wood. If it were me I would build some FH from plans or from a flat pack (well reviewed, large knowledge base and so many have been made you might even be able to hear a pair) then you just have to convince Mark audio to increase sensitivity by 3dB across the board but maybe that’s a crusade for another day.
Do you need all the bells and whistles and extruded aluminum that comes with a Naim streamer or are you in an rPI moode? The sweet spot is a moving target, if you have more time then money to spend great sounds can still be had from the used market but while finding a great deal is nice I don’t think it gives you the satisfaction of building it yourself, (almost) regardless of cost.
And now here’s the Kithara, the multi-way I will use as a starting point for my next global conquest, essentially an lx-mini on steroids with an AMT playing the role of the full range driver.
Oskar Heil Speakers
Hi, go to the roots, forget about components and their brands for a while and ask what it is that makes a good sound. Close your eyes and think about the sound you are thinking, is it loud or quiet, natural or colored, what ever makes you brain and toes tingle? These are the things you should be chasing.
If it is purely sound you are after there really shouldn't be any need to spend more than to achieve the sound but you might also want speakers or sound as a status symbol which is fine, or a decorative object, which is also fine.
Have you heard the sound you imagine somewhere? what was the system like, did you see it?
Cut to the point already, ok 🙂 it is more the system as a whole including the room and your taste, what the system should be like. When you get a hunch, try to figure out how to achieve that. Combine your knowledge and memories, ask questions, search for answers. Lay a path to some goal knowing that it might not be what you are actually looking for but will teach you a lot and have more clear vision on what is it you are after. Goal meaning a sound system, diy speakers or store bought, what ever you envision. The resulting system might be something completely different than what you are currently thinking sound system to be. You will find cheap and expensive stuff that will work on your project. Might be ugly, but you can make a more beutiful object later.
To answer where is the diminishing returns let me say this, it is determined by your goal. A more complicated and expensive system, when well executed, should be superior because only reason to make a system more complicated and expensive is to make it better than the starting point 😀 So it is diminishing returns when you go to esoteric or hifimagazine stuff without wholly understanding the reasons. Unles the reason is status, and it is fine, otherwise it is waste of money.
Anyway, 1300$ is cheap if it is years of fun and joy!🙂
If it is purely sound you are after there really shouldn't be any need to spend more than to achieve the sound but you might also want speakers or sound as a status symbol which is fine, or a decorative object, which is also fine.
Have you heard the sound you imagine somewhere? what was the system like, did you see it?
Cut to the point already, ok 🙂 it is more the system as a whole including the room and your taste, what the system should be like. When you get a hunch, try to figure out how to achieve that. Combine your knowledge and memories, ask questions, search for answers. Lay a path to some goal knowing that it might not be what you are actually looking for but will teach you a lot and have more clear vision on what is it you are after. Goal meaning a sound system, diy speakers or store bought, what ever you envision. The resulting system might be something completely different than what you are currently thinking sound system to be. You will find cheap and expensive stuff that will work on your project. Might be ugly, but you can make a more beutiful object later.
To answer where is the diminishing returns let me say this, it is determined by your goal. A more complicated and expensive system, when well executed, should be superior because only reason to make a system more complicated and expensive is to make it better than the starting point 😀 So it is diminishing returns when you go to esoteric or hifimagazine stuff without wholly understanding the reasons. Unles the reason is status, and it is fine, otherwise it is waste of money.
Anyway, 1300$ is cheap if it is years of fun and joy!🙂
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Thanks for the reply.
I've added links to products, though I intended them for illustrative purposes and am not sold on any particular set.
Thank you for pointing out the fidelity of USB vs SPDIF. I'll make sure I take that into account as I begin to finalize designs. Keeping in the Allo garden, I believe the USBridge is an example of a product you're talking about?
Thanks for the reply!
You're right insoumch as eeking out that last bit of performace/dollar is part of the fun of DIY. However, as this is going to be my first hi-fi build, I thought that it might behoove me to start somewhere a bit accessible, as per your recommendation.
Also, what is FH in this context?
I tend to think of the DIY side of things like this; if the RPi and DAC can get to the performance of a NAIM at a fraction (1/10? 1/5?) of the cost while sacrificing some esthetics and costing a bit of leg work on my end, I consider that well worth it. If I can't gain any benefit from doing it myself (cost/esthetic/personalization) than I'd prefer to buy off the shelf and focus my time on energy on other DIY projects, like media cabinets, NAS, etc.
Annndddd, let's just say those speakers you pointed out are pretty rad, though I may be the Pinky to your Brain; not quite ready to take over the world quite yet.
Diminishing Returns, in my opinion, is a slippery slope, that often leads down a rabbit hole.
As for cost outlays, this too can be all over the map.
Judging the cost vs performance by what a manufacturer or seller states isn't always the truth either.
Going from actual purchasers reviews about parts in general, including speakers, it seems that the unlikely budget models win a lot of stars.
Picky people buying an $18 tweeter, for instance for replacement in their beloved Acoustic Research speakers were astounded by the inprovements.
So it's not all about "more expensive, much be better"
Get reviews for parts from real people that have bought stuff, don't depend on pure honesty from sellers.
These days, those elite price tags on speakers are rediculous, and reek of greed and hype, as is many products today.
As for cost outlays, this too can be all over the map.
Judging the cost vs performance by what a manufacturer or seller states isn't always the truth either.
Going from actual purchasers reviews about parts in general, including speakers, it seems that the unlikely budget models win a lot of stars.
Picky people buying an $18 tweeter, for instance for replacement in their beloved Acoustic Research speakers were astounded by the inprovements.
So it's not all about "more expensive, much be better"
Get reviews for parts from real people that have bought stuff, don't depend on pure honesty from sellers.
These days, those elite price tags on speakers are rediculous, and reek of greed and hype, as is many products today.
USBridge SIG is a very low noise RPi equivalent USB source. Allo also has USB dacs such as Revolution and Boss 2 that can work with any USB source, including their own. All their products tend to audibly benefit from good low noise power supplies, which of course Allo sells too. By the time all is said and done it can add up to some money, but so can other good dac choices.
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^^Yeah and it all depends on the system if given part is suitable at all. It comes down to knowledge what you actually need, and when you do, the cost becomes irrelevant.
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The frugal-horn, have a look in the full range section, although not a multi-way it’s pretty amazing and if you want you can always throw in a sub and maybe a super tweeter on top and call it multi-way. May not be your cup of tea but aesthetically and sonically worth considering for sure.
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Not sure it should be taken as a universal truth that USB is to be preferred to SPDIF. I have two server inputs to my music system. One is a Raspberry Pi Volumio USB DAC source, the other is my fanless mini-ITX computer with Linux based Kodi feeding the same FLAC to a PS Audio DAC via SPDIF. No question the SPDIF to DAC is superior in my case. There are a ton of variables in these two equations; too many for a generalization?
Thanks for bringing that up. I'll have to glean what insights I can as I start finalizing pieces in my build.
You don't have to go with a kit or start from scratch there are many well established designs here on diyAudio.
Here's a sample.
The "Elsinore Project" Thread
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Open Source Monkey Box
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
Here's a sample.
The "Elsinore Project" Thread
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Open Source Monkey Box
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
Just read that you live in a smallish space. Therefore some designs over in the full range forum might fit the bill. Will certainly give you value performance.
Not at all unless you can point out cheap DACs that audibly didn't do as well as expensive DACs in level matched double blind listening comparison.
@James09
Properly implemented asynchronous USB is best, then clocking can be the closest to ideal. Galvanic isolation and other design methods can take care of computer ground noise and USB power noise issues.
The problem with SPDIF is it contains an embedded clock which is by nature more jittery than a good crystal clock right at the dac chip. A FIFO can fix that problem but it introduces a delay which can make audio out of sync with video, so not good for some uses. ASRC is another way of dealing with the clock problem, but even if well implemented it usually is at least a little audibly worse to me. The last choice for SPFIF is to use a PLL to try to recover the embedded SPDIF clock, which is usually the worst choice of those available in today's technology.
Properly implemented asynchronous USB is best, then clocking can be the closest to ideal. Galvanic isolation and other design methods can take care of computer ground noise and USB power noise issues.
The problem with SPDIF is it contains an embedded clock which is by nature more jittery than a good crystal clock right at the dac chip. A FIFO can fix that problem but it introduces a delay which can make audio out of sync with video, so not good for some uses. ASRC is another way of dealing with the clock problem, but even if well implemented it usually is at least a little audibly worse to me. The last choice for SPFIF is to use a PLL to try to recover the embedded SPDIF clock, which is usually the worst choice of those available in today's technology.
I personal don’t get into the dac wars, the very cheap dacs (apple dongle, etc) are as serviceable a Bose speaker. On the other hand for 100-250 a schiit modi or modius, KTB, toppling etc are all you need, splurge on features if you want but sound wise it’s hard to beat the $100 schiit. I am running a pi with moode connected usb to a schiit modi 2 and I am very happy. I also have a pi zero with moode and just got a hifiberry dac (chosen for cost and functionality), soon we’ll see how 15$ dac hat does.
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Often, it helps to start somewhere manageable, with a simple but great project. This gives you a point of reference to know what you want from a larger project. It may equally bring you just what you want, leaving you with the dilemma that you want another project but have no justification for it!
As an example of a simple project would be a single driver, full range speaker with no electrical cross-over. It’s also an example of something that may open your eyes to the sonic benefits of simplicity from which you will change your future direction. It might equally be an end point, it has the potential to be that good.
I’ve built a few speakers (Audio Nirvana 15” and smaller) and can strongly recommend a high quality birch ply bass reflex box around the MA Alpair 10.3 or Alpair 10p. It will be tough to beat these even by spending more money.
As an example of a simple project would be a single driver, full range speaker with no electrical cross-over. It’s also an example of something that may open your eyes to the sonic benefits of simplicity from which you will change your future direction. It might equally be an end point, it has the potential to be that good.
I’ve built a few speakers (Audio Nirvana 15” and smaller) and can strongly recommend a high quality birch ply bass reflex box around the MA Alpair 10.3 or Alpair 10p. It will be tough to beat these even by spending more money.
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At the 2 way budget end DIY parts will tend to cost more than a well designed mass produced consumer speaker. If you want speaker building to become a hobby then it may be a good place to start but if you are intending to build only one speaker then it doesn't look like the sweet spot.
With a $2000 speaker using premium drivers the DIY designer may have produced a well balanced high quality design, they may have become enthusiastic about one or two aspects leading to an unbalanced design which overemphasizes the role one or two aspects at the expense of others, they may be incompetent (some DIY speaker designers clearly believe in pixie dust and paying large sums for it), etc... As a newcomer you are in a weak position to judge and will be taking a significant risk if $2000 is a significant sum to you.
I would suggest that the sweet spot perhaps lies somewhere around a well designed 3 way using standard rather than premium drivers. Around $1000 perhaps a bit more or perhaps a bit less depending on your requirements. Perhaps something like a tower with 2 x 8" woofer, 4-5" midrange and 1" tweeter preferably in a waveguide? Or in a small room and at the cheaper end something like the ZDT3.5?
I would suggest sorting out the configuration first before getting too involved with particular designs.
The sweet spot is the JBL 305P MkII. Less than the cost of your 1ET400 Amp. Also, a lot easier to sell in the aftermarket. Not that I'd ever sell them.
Listen to that speaker then figure out what more you want. That will tell you were your personal sweet spot is. You may want it louder. You may want better bass. You may want something visually striking. But at least you'll have a good benchmark to work from and use as a comparison.
At this stage, that's your dopest option.
Listen to that speaker then figure out what more you want. That will tell you were your personal sweet spot is. You may want it louder. You may want better bass. You may want something visually striking. But at least you'll have a good benchmark to work from and use as a comparison.
At this stage, that's your dopest option.
The Tannoy Gold 5 are supposed to be quite decent too.
Here is a YT vid which may not be that useful but towards the end it does show distortion plots for both.
Tannoy Gold 5 vs JBL 305P MKII || Sound, Distortion & Frequency Response Comparison - YouTube
Oddly enough played back through my Rogers DB101s they both sound remarkably like ...Rogers DB101s! 😉
Here is a YT vid which may not be that useful but towards the end it does show distortion plots for both.
Tannoy Gold 5 vs JBL 305P MKII || Sound, Distortion & Frequency Response Comparison - YouTube
Oddly enough played back through my Rogers DB101s they both sound remarkably like ...Rogers DB101s! 😉