First of all, a huge 'thank you' to all the great people on this forum! -You rock!
So far, I've never felt the urge to create an account because I mostly found answers to nearly all questions I had somewhere on diyaudio, but now the time has come.
Onto the reason why I finally created an account and started this thread:
A serviced pair of the awesome Infinity Renaissance 90 speakers is now in my possession (sadly standing around at the moment because my most powerful tube or SS amps with 75W are obviously not enough to get the Ren90's going plus I fear clipping the amps because the EMITs are easily damaged by that if you drive them with such an amp for too long) and need an amp capable of driving the Ren90's reliably. -I've attached the technical sheet with the crossover and an additional drawing of the bass-crossover-
The Ren90's are rated as 4ohm speakers, but, as far as I know, dip down to around 2 ohms, give or take a little.
I don't think they classify as amp-killers at all, like some Infinity speakers ~Kappa and thelike, but they are nonetheless demanding speakers, both when it comes to the quality of the audio-chain, since they are quite revealing -oh those beautiful EMIT-tweeters and EMIM-midranges, and of course when it comes to the power the amp can deliver -IMG/Infinity dual voice coil woofers were designed to be a easier load for the amp, but still need a bunch of (stable ~2ohm) power to sound their best.
I'm thinking SS mono-blocks are the obvious choice, but which? Preferably they should be diy. Maybe the Aleph Jx or the F5Tv3? (and with what rail voltage? 53-56V for around 100WClassA into 4ohm?)
Do you think they would do justice to the speakers, or should I look into commercial amps -and again which?
I should also mention at this point that my budget is not infinite. For this amp/the mono-blocks staying within my budget is however not of utmost importance, but I would like to stay under 2500EUR if possible.
That would be doable with the AJx or the F5Tv3 I guess.
Bi-amping the speakers could also be an option for me, but too take full advantage of that I would have to use an active x-over before the amps, which I have absolutely no experience with. Hence, if that is the way I should drive my Ren90's, please recommend me a good transparent active x-over.
Thanks in advance for your help and no matter, if you own Ren90's or not, please reply, if you think that you can help me in some way or have experience with similar Infinity speakers.
Best regards,
TubySS
So far, I've never felt the urge to create an account because I mostly found answers to nearly all questions I had somewhere on diyaudio, but now the time has come.
Onto the reason why I finally created an account and started this thread:
A serviced pair of the awesome Infinity Renaissance 90 speakers is now in my possession (sadly standing around at the moment because my most powerful tube or SS amps with 75W are obviously not enough to get the Ren90's going plus I fear clipping the amps because the EMITs are easily damaged by that if you drive them with such an amp for too long) and need an amp capable of driving the Ren90's reliably. -I've attached the technical sheet with the crossover and an additional drawing of the bass-crossover-
The Ren90's are rated as 4ohm speakers, but, as far as I know, dip down to around 2 ohms, give or take a little.
I don't think they classify as amp-killers at all, like some Infinity speakers ~Kappa and thelike, but they are nonetheless demanding speakers, both when it comes to the quality of the audio-chain, since they are quite revealing -oh those beautiful EMIT-tweeters and EMIM-midranges, and of course when it comes to the power the amp can deliver -IMG/Infinity dual voice coil woofers were designed to be a easier load for the amp, but still need a bunch of (stable ~2ohm) power to sound their best.
I'm thinking SS mono-blocks are the obvious choice, but which? Preferably they should be diy. Maybe the Aleph Jx or the F5Tv3? (and with what rail voltage? 53-56V for around 100WClassA into 4ohm?)
Do you think they would do justice to the speakers, or should I look into commercial amps -and again which?
I should also mention at this point that my budget is not infinite. For this amp/the mono-blocks staying within my budget is however not of utmost importance, but I would like to stay under 2500EUR if possible.
That would be doable with the AJx or the F5Tv3 I guess.
Bi-amping the speakers could also be an option for me, but too take full advantage of that I would have to use an active x-over before the amps, which I have absolutely no experience with. Hence, if that is the way I should drive my Ren90's, please recommend me a good transparent active x-over.
Thanks in advance for your help and no matter, if you own Ren90's or not, please reply, if you think that you can help me in some way or have experience with similar Infinity speakers.
Best regards,
TubySS
Attachments
Last edited:
I don't see why. The passive crossovers will take care of the speakers. To reduce the signal levels in the mid/treble amp you can modify an input coupling capacitor or another place within the amp with a similar effect.. to high pass just outside of the band. Alternately you can bring it up to be a part of the band and partially replace the lowest drivers high-pass section.
Some tube amps are OK with lower impedance.
Wow, thanks for the quick reply!
Limiting the frequencies reproduced by the amps inside of them seems like a very good idea indeed since I don't have to add an active x-over into the signal-chain.
Doing it this way would mean I could use tube amps for everything but the bass-frequencies, which I will definitely try, but since I'm thinking about moving completely to SS for these speakers, what amp would you recommend for driving the EMIT, EMIM and the midbass coupler (45kHz-200Hz) and which one for the 10" IMG Watkins Dual Voice Coil Woofer (200Hz-27Hz)?
Maybe a diy amp, like the F5Tv2or3 or a powerful class-d amp, like a Crown XLC (the only line of Crown without a DSP inside the amp) for the woofer? And for the second amp a F5Tv2?
I find it much harder to decide with what amp I should go for the upper frequencies since on the one hand, I want to make sure that the amp will never clip (to avoid destroying those precious EMIMs) and on the other hand, I want an amp that will do justice to the Ren90's and not make the speakers less revealing.
Any amp recommendations, be it diy or commercial, a single mono-block for the upper and lower frequencies or two separate ones, tube or SS (but SS is much preferred, since I want to move away from tubes with these 87dB/W/1m speakers -at least for the amp that drives all drivers, but the woofer).
Why not a class D amp? Look at Hypex NCore NC400. You can buy a kit, should be really easy to assemble.
Or an AB amp using LM3886'es: Modulus-686.
They both have ultra low distortion and exceptional performance, and should have more than enough power to drive your speakers.
Or an AB amp using LM3886'es: Modulus-686.
They both have ultra low distortion and exceptional performance, and should have more than enough power to drive your speakers.
I've seen so many Infinity speakers with odd ball impedance curves.
Would you be willing to measure it? If so, you can use Room EQ Wizard or Dayton DATS?
Since you are into DIY, you can use REW for free, but have to build a measuring jig (< $10).
I might want to suggest, you could do a complete electrical analysis this way. Measure the impedance of each driver, separately, and measure the total system. This way you can test alternatives using XSim and the transfer function feature. 🙂
Would you be willing to measure it? If so, you can use Room EQ Wizard or Dayton DATS?
Since you are into DIY, you can use REW for free, but have to build a measuring jig (< $10).
I might want to suggest, you could do a complete electrical analysis this way. Measure the impedance of each driver, separately, and measure the total system. This way you can test alternatives using XSim and the transfer function feature. 🙂
Firstly I'd connect my scope to the terminals that will be covered by said amp, and play some loud music.
@tubyss ...
I appreciate that you want to DIY your way through this. I would too ... But we do have to consider that amplifiers that are stable down to 2 ohms are not that common, nor are they easy to build.
If you go the commercial route, I would suggest the Crown XLS series of Class D professional amplifiers. Audiophile objections aside, these are 2 ohm amps, with built in crossovers and level controls, delivering impressively clean power. And if you look on Amazon the prices are very reasonable.
No I don't work for Crown ... but I've had experience with Infinity towers before and you are right, some of them are very demanding and they can be amp killers.
I appreciate that you want to DIY your way through this. I would too ... But we do have to consider that amplifiers that are stable down to 2 ohms are not that common, nor are they easy to build.
If you go the commercial route, I would suggest the Crown XLS series of Class D professional amplifiers. Audiophile objections aside, these are 2 ohm amps, with built in crossovers and level controls, delivering impressively clean power. And if you look on Amazon the prices are very reasonable.
No I don't work for Crown ... but I've had experience with Infinity towers before and you are right, some of them are very demanding and they can be amp killers.
Ok yes, no amps can tend to handle a small foray below 4 ohms. That 4 ohm rating is more of a region than a tripwire. Besides, I don't think the impedance of these is as bad as that.
I was already thinking about going class d for the woofer...if I choose to bi-amp the Ren90's. Thanks for the amp recommendations!
I never built/meassured/modded loudspeakers before, but since I have been thinking about maybe building a pair of very efficient LS (maybe sth. like in the "Beyond Ariel" thread), but I haven't really decided what LS I should build and now with the Ren90's I wanted to shift my focus completely on getting that system perfect first...hence I haven't looked into REW and built a measuring jig. But since you recommend that I should measure the Ren90's (was thinking about doing so already, since I couldn't find any measurements I trust on the web), I guess now is a good time to do so.
I have, however, found some measurements on an Italian website, but the crossover of their speakers doesn't match the one in my Ren90's, which is exactly the same x-over as in the official technical sheet. -I've attached their measurements nonetheless. Their full review can be found at Infinity Renaissance 90 - AudioReview
Attachments
But aren't F5Tv3 mono-blocks more than stable into 2ohm?
The crown are also on my list on amps I consider, but again as mentioned in one of my posts before, I would like to stay away from driving the entire Ren90's with a class-d amp. But if I choose to bi-amp the speakers, class-d (crown, hypex,...) seems like a very good choice to me for the Watkins woofer, since it is crossed over at 200Hz...
Should this thread be moved to the Amplifiers section?
I just realised, that this thread should probably be moved to the "Amplifiers" section of diya, since it is more about what amp(s) to use in combination with the Ren90's and not mainly about the Ren90's themselves...
I just realised, that this thread should probably be moved to the "Amplifiers" section of diya, since it is more about what amp(s) to use in combination with the Ren90's and not mainly about the Ren90's themselves...
Thread moved from Multi-Way
Based on these measurements, I'd say you don't need a great deal more than a solid 50-60 W / 4 ohm amp, although it should be something that isn't particularly peeved by impedances dipping even below 3 ohms at times, so output stage distortion in particular should be kept to a minimum.
I think the midranges are the best-performing drivers in this one; the EMIT tweeter is being a typical ribbon and plagued by high excursion towards the lower end of its range due to lack of seal, and the bass handling isn't overly impressive for a 10" woofer, although the 200 Hz crossover frequency means that the midrange is kept clean either way.
I think the midranges are the best-performing drivers in this one; the EMIT tweeter is being a typical ribbon and plagued by high excursion towards the lower end of its range due to lack of seal, and the bass handling isn't overly impressive for a 10" woofer, although the 200 Hz crossover frequency means that the midrange is kept clean either way.
Yes it is more of a region, not a hard limit.
But you also have to consider the current demanded and the heat that causes. The amp might not die on the first day... but you can be sure you're shortening it's lifetime... especially given the ridiculous levels most audiophiles listen at.
Yes and no. Many like efficient speakers, even class A amps or at least cool running, well specced outputs.
I looked at the impedance for these. It doesn't seem to go below 3.25ohms. What it does do is have a fairly resistive looking impedance through the bass which is a little unusual but not unacceptable.
I looked at the impedance for these. It doesn't seem to go below 3.25ohms. What it does do is have a fairly resistive looking impedance through the bass which is a little unusual but not unacceptable.
Hmm, ~60WClassA (~120Wtotal) into 4ohms / 30-32V F5Tv3 mono-blocks don't seem like such a bad idea…but more headroom won't hurt with theses speakers I guess, so I could borrow one or a pair of crown xls later on and try out bi-amping the speakers with one crown for both or per each speaker on the woofer and see where that goes. But maybe I'm satisfied with the monos and won't even think about doing anything further...at least for a while before I get the itch again to try and improve the sound of the system 🙂
I just want to hear with which amps people on diya would start out or what they think would be a safe bet for the Ren90's. No matter, if a diy or commercial amp.
Oh and please don't just support me in my thinking that the mono F5Tv3's would be worth a try, but propose a different amp, if you think I'm heading in the wrong direction.
I have also not completely dismissed the idea of going with tubes for driving the whole speakers or everything except the woofers (even if I kinda want to go all MOSFET/SS), but I would need some recommendations for powerful/stable tube amp circuits or commercial products (please no McIntosh's though)
Last edited:
Hi,
I have a pair of Ren 90 since over two decades and love them - I use them everyday and eventhough I considered many other options here and there, once back home I have all I need and never moved.
I have several reviews but finding out the impedance curve is not easy. The Italian review you posted is not precise on scale (I couldn't read it back then and it is no better now) and there were at least 2 variants regarding the Xover with variants in the bass. But whetever your consider they are quite easy to drive and don't go below 2.6 Ohm of 3.2 Ohm depending on reviews - if they are to be believed.
Bottom line, IME, they cope well with current capable amps even with moderate power, like 70W/4R provided the amp can still cope with less than 3R... but that value is very much dependent on the room you intend to use them and also the max level you want to achieve! Only that will tell your needs... their eficiency is acceptable, not outstanding, and that means exponential needs that quickly add to high values.
I am quite pleased with my simple amp, an old tuned H-K, but I am considering more up to date amps for my Ren 90s. After a lot of investigations, I found that Fab's amps are likely to match my needs. If you can cope with low power, his USSA series (here on DIYaudio) seems to be a possible solution. As of me, I hesitate with its FSSA sibling, a class A-B amp that runs high into Class A but has more oomph and a better damping factor.
Having written all that, I haven't tested either solution yet, but considered many...
Last but not leats, a few years ago a bloke on (I believe) Audiokarma measured the drivers and proposed interesting upgrades to Xover. That is not a simple Xover and you need to know what you are doing (ESR etc.), but I would welcome some measurements of the drivers. Should have posted to the author back then, not sure he is still around... you may want to try...
Enjoy these fab Infinitys very much
Claude
PS: eventhough the mids and highs are exceptional, so is the bass. Closed cabinet (no bass reflex) means extremly precise and timed bass and it goes down to 25Hz from a moderate size cabinet while still having an acceptable efficiency... Exceptional, but then I am biased.
I have a pair of Ren 90 since over two decades and love them - I use them everyday and eventhough I considered many other options here and there, once back home I have all I need and never moved.
I have several reviews but finding out the impedance curve is not easy. The Italian review you posted is not precise on scale (I couldn't read it back then and it is no better now) and there were at least 2 variants regarding the Xover with variants in the bass. But whetever your consider they are quite easy to drive and don't go below 2.6 Ohm of 3.2 Ohm depending on reviews - if they are to be believed.
Bottom line, IME, they cope well with current capable amps even with moderate power, like 70W/4R provided the amp can still cope with less than 3R... but that value is very much dependent on the room you intend to use them and also the max level you want to achieve! Only that will tell your needs... their eficiency is acceptable, not outstanding, and that means exponential needs that quickly add to high values.
I am quite pleased with my simple amp, an old tuned H-K, but I am considering more up to date amps for my Ren 90s. After a lot of investigations, I found that Fab's amps are likely to match my needs. If you can cope with low power, his USSA series (here on DIYaudio) seems to be a possible solution. As of me, I hesitate with its FSSA sibling, a class A-B amp that runs high into Class A but has more oomph and a better damping factor.
Having written all that, I haven't tested either solution yet, but considered many...
Last but not leats, a few years ago a bloke on (I believe) Audiokarma measured the drivers and proposed interesting upgrades to Xover. That is not a simple Xover and you need to know what you are doing (ESR etc.), but I would welcome some measurements of the drivers. Should have posted to the author back then, not sure he is still around... you may want to try...
Enjoy these fab Infinitys very much
Claude
PS: eventhough the mids and highs are exceptional, so is the bass. Closed cabinet (no bass reflex) means extremly precise and timed bass and it goes down to 25Hz from a moderate size cabinet while still having an acceptable efficiency... Exceptional, but then I am biased.
Last edited:
Wow, thanks for your very helpful post and great to hear that you love your Ren90's! 🙂
I'll put the FSSA by Fab on my list of amps that I consider...should have done so, when I first stumbled upon his amps.
Also good to hear that the Ren90's aren't that hard to drive, given an amp that is stable down to 3-2ohm.
As for my listening levels: I mainly listen to classical music, but all sorts of genres find their way into my listening room, including, but not limited to, opera, chamber music, jazz, rock and maybe even some well recorded electronic music like daft punk.
I do, however, not listen at levels one would consider loud, but since well recorded classical music can have quite some dynamic range, a 40-50W amp is probably not the right choice for the Ren90's, so the FSSA seems like a good choice.
I'll definitely measure the drivers and the speaker as a whole somewhen and will post the results in this thread or/and send you a pm.
I guess how easy the Ren90's are to drive, compared to almost any other Infinity speakers, is maybe the main reason why some people give them so much praise...of course combined with the fact that the Ren90's have H-Emit's, H-Emim's, instead of some variation of the standard Emit and Emim, and the Watkins woofers (the closed cabinet of course also helps the bass, as you already mentioned).
I'll put the FSSA by Fab on my list of amps that I consider...should have done so, when I first stumbled upon his amps.
Also good to hear that the Ren90's aren't that hard to drive, given an amp that is stable down to 3-2ohm.
As for my listening levels: I mainly listen to classical music, but all sorts of genres find their way into my listening room, including, but not limited to, opera, chamber music, jazz, rock and maybe even some well recorded electronic music like daft punk.
I do, however, not listen at levels one would consider loud, but since well recorded classical music can have quite some dynamic range, a 40-50W amp is probably not the right choice for the Ren90's, so the FSSA seems like a good choice.
I'll definitely measure the drivers and the speaker as a whole somewhen and will post the results in this thread or/and send you a pm.
I guess how easy the Ren90's are to drive, compared to almost any other Infinity speakers, is maybe the main reason why some people give them so much praise...of course combined with the fact that the Ren90's have H-Emit's, H-Emim's, instead of some variation of the standard Emit and Emim, and the Watkins woofers (the closed cabinet of course also helps the bass, as you already mentioned).
Yep, they simply sound fabulous, still today... they would probably cost a fortune nowadays to manufacture with these drivers...
I shall be delighted to read your measurements, whenever you have the time to carry them out.
Regarding the required power... What I did to evaluate my real needs was the following, might help you.
I played the loudest track I new the loudest way, picked up rather compressed music with lot of (really) deep bass. Not sure it is that relevant, but bass is where you need the most power and where your hearing is not the most sensitive. I kept note of the volume position and assumed that would be the loudest party I would ever want on my seat, not very audiophile listening and maybe just one track at that level or a few minutes.
Then I played a track with a sinus tone that is recorded at 0dB (but could have been another value then scaling numbers), assuming that my recorded music couldn't be recorded louder per definition. I measured the AC voltage at my LS with a small scope still with that max volume setting, that is quite a torture but well, don't do it too long. If you don't have a scope, use a then sinus tone at 60Hz and a multimeter that can measure AC voltage, they can do 60Hz but are often crap at higher frequencies.
You can then calculate the power needed given you know roughly your LS impedance at that frequency (or estimate it). To avoid the bass impedance variations, I used a scope and a 1kHz tone, quite close 3-4R impedance... and realy very loud then.
Based on that, and giving a 3 to 6dB extra factor for power (another extra margin on top of the recording), I found out that I usualy needed in average around 1W per speaker and under 40W on forte in the bass... of course a bit extra margin can never hurt.
This is due to me being not too far away from the speakers (3m) and somewhere the losses are in real life way lower than in an open field due to reflections so at the end power needs tend to decrease quite lineary in a room with listening distance (in close field & small rooms).
Somewhere, I am with my needs exactly between USSA and FSSA, and they have different DF and properties, hence my hesitation 🙂
Enjoy music very much
Claude
I shall be delighted to read your measurements, whenever you have the time to carry them out.
Regarding the required power... What I did to evaluate my real needs was the following, might help you.
I played the loudest track I new the loudest way, picked up rather compressed music with lot of (really) deep bass. Not sure it is that relevant, but bass is where you need the most power and where your hearing is not the most sensitive. I kept note of the volume position and assumed that would be the loudest party I would ever want on my seat, not very audiophile listening and maybe just one track at that level or a few minutes.
Then I played a track with a sinus tone that is recorded at 0dB (but could have been another value then scaling numbers), assuming that my recorded music couldn't be recorded louder per definition. I measured the AC voltage at my LS with a small scope still with that max volume setting, that is quite a torture but well, don't do it too long. If you don't have a scope, use a then sinus tone at 60Hz and a multimeter that can measure AC voltage, they can do 60Hz but are often crap at higher frequencies.
You can then calculate the power needed given you know roughly your LS impedance at that frequency (or estimate it). To avoid the bass impedance variations, I used a scope and a 1kHz tone, quite close 3-4R impedance... and realy very loud then.
Based on that, and giving a 3 to 6dB extra factor for power (another extra margin on top of the recording), I found out that I usualy needed in average around 1W per speaker and under 40W on forte in the bass... of course a bit extra margin can never hurt.
This is due to me being not too far away from the speakers (3m) and somewhere the losses are in real life way lower than in an open field due to reflections so at the end power needs tend to decrease quite lineary in a room with listening distance (in close field & small rooms).
Somewhere, I am with my needs exactly between USSA and FSSA, and they have different DF and properties, hence my hesitation 🙂
Enjoy music very much
Claude
Last edited: