Hi,
please advise how to deal with the following requirements.
I prefer to listen acoustic music, from classical music, early baroque music and opera to jazz to ethnic music, the human voice, acoustic instruments. But sometimes a bit of some electric music - jazz, blues, rock (no metal or so, but classic rock like Santana, Yes, N.Young, some indie rock - Zalmani etc).
I prefer listen at low volumes - to preserve hearing from demage and to relax without getting tired of too much noise. My dedicates hifi room is small (3.6x4.8m) so optimal distance of speakers is about 1.8m.
I assume the use of an amplifier Marantz PM7000N (reviews are good and I like that it's all in one solution for playing FLACs from USB disc and for internet radio).
I have looked for some loudspeakers, but commercial types that are on offer in our country meet what I need. I find that they are tuned for higher volumes, they do not play well at low volumes. Also, none of the ones I tried convinced me by their performance of acoustic instruments and voices (tember, color, ambient sounds).
I'm thinking about building my own speakers. Can you advise me which concept to choose, some projects that would meet my ideas?
At present, I already have a very old set of Dynaudio Audience 10 bookshelf speakers and Marantz PM44se amplifier. Of course, I would like to achieve a significant improvement in sound.
Thanks in advance
please advise how to deal with the following requirements.
I prefer to listen acoustic music, from classical music, early baroque music and opera to jazz to ethnic music, the human voice, acoustic instruments. But sometimes a bit of some electric music - jazz, blues, rock (no metal or so, but classic rock like Santana, Yes, N.Young, some indie rock - Zalmani etc).
I prefer listen at low volumes - to preserve hearing from demage and to relax without getting tired of too much noise. My dedicates hifi room is small (3.6x4.8m) so optimal distance of speakers is about 1.8m.
I assume the use of an amplifier Marantz PM7000N (reviews are good and I like that it's all in one solution for playing FLACs from USB disc and for internet radio).
I have looked for some loudspeakers, but commercial types that are on offer in our country meet what I need. I find that they are tuned for higher volumes, they do not play well at low volumes. Also, none of the ones I tried convinced me by their performance of acoustic instruments and voices (tember, color, ambient sounds).
I'm thinking about building my own speakers. Can you advise me which concept to choose, some projects that would meet my ideas?
At present, I already have a very old set of Dynaudio Audience 10 bookshelf speakers and Marantz PM44se amplifier. Of course, I would like to achieve a significant improvement in sound.
Thanks in advance
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Not diy I know, but the most well known speakers for working well at low volume are Quad electrostatics and old Tannoy Dual Concentric (not sure what models are the best though).
Contrary to what you'd think, larger speakers are usually better in this regard, and when tuned correctly, can work very well in small rooms.
Contrary to what you'd think, larger speakers are usually better in this regard, and when tuned correctly, can work very well in small rooms.
I have no SPL meter, I guess cca 50-70dB. Something at level of common radio or TV. Safe level for healthy hearing and for longer relaxing listening. I'm not able to be more exactly.
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I write nothing about size, I presume too that speakers with large woofer will work better (kind of built in loudness 🙂).
A thing to consider is that our ears are nonlinear in sensitivity. Not only in the frequency domain, but also in the level domain. Where you won't be able to hear 30Hz on 60dB SPL, the same 60dB SPL on 1kHz are pretty loud.
So if you know you listen mainly at 60dB SPL, don't bother searching for a system that goes down deep, I'd say 50dB at -3dB output would suffice. Or, accept that you like loudness (as in raising the bass and treble levels, ideally level-dependent). In that case, bigger systems come into play.
Also, your room probably will add some low boost due to adjacent boundaries and standing waves in your room. I think you have to make your mind up about what your requirements are on bass reproduction.
So if you know you listen mainly at 60dB SPL, don't bother searching for a system that goes down deep, I'd say 50dB at -3dB output would suffice. Or, accept that you like loudness (as in raising the bass and treble levels, ideally level-dependent). In that case, bigger systems come into play.
Also, your room probably will add some low boost due to adjacent boundaries and standing waves in your room. I think you have to make your mind up about what your requirements are on bass reproduction.
Attachments
yes, but I think bass and loudness is not the only problem ? I think that loudspeakers differs in ability to "come alive" for low level volume (not only in bass area) ? Most of music is made by middle freq. If speaker is "slow/dumped", it will not work the same as another that is more "easy going" and reacts more lively ?
Well...
What you see in a lot of the 'background listening' systems is that they produce a profound bathtub curve. From cheap BT-speakers to boutique Boenicke designs, all alike. That bathtub is to overcome the loudness curve of your ear. And if that is what you are looking for, well... you can choose such a system or you can pick a good loudspeaker and correct the input with a decent loudness contour device.
I think this says a lot about your expectations. Imho good loudspeakers aren't tuned to different types of music or for higher volumes. They all are pretty linear in their efficiency. An even better system is also linear in it's frequency domain and in it's directivity domain.
What you see in a lot of the 'background listening' systems is that they produce a profound bathtub curve. From cheap BT-speakers to boutique Boenicke designs, all alike. That bathtub is to overcome the loudness curve of your ear. And if that is what you are looking for, well... you can choose such a system or you can pick a good loudspeaker and correct the input with a decent loudness contour device.
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But then you say that all speakers sound the same ... OK, I used inappropriate word "tuned". And yes, ideal LS would be neutral and can reproduce every kind of music. But real LSs are far from such ideal and every add some signature to sound.
For music to sound good at low volumes, it also becomes necessary to maintain extremely low levels of ambient noise. If I were you, I would get my room deadened a little to prevent the speakers (or anything else in the room) from getting loud due to reverberation effects. This works because the brain tends to perceive the sounds with longer decay times as the louder ones. You may also try an EQ setting tailored for your levels of listening, based on the Fletcher Munson curves mentioned by Markbakk.
I assume that 60dB is the required level at the listening position. Once you deaden your room, you should be able to increase the volume without any issues. Note that you can still get much better sound by cutting primary reflections alone, in case you are unable to place panels all around for some reason.
And compression drivers tend to sound very good and effortless, irrespective of the sound pressure levels involved.
I assume that 60dB is the required level at the listening position. Once you deaden your room, you should be able to increase the volume without any issues. Note that you can still get much better sound by cutting primary reflections alone, in case you are unable to place panels all around for some reason.
And compression drivers tend to sound very good and effortless, irrespective of the sound pressure levels involved.
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Almost nothing sold in stores in my tiny 2 million sized metro area is anything but garbage. The car sound wars killed all the hifi stores, everything was supposed to buzz buzz thump thump. People buy speakers here with their eyes. 5 cheap drivers blows the average consumer away. Hearing garbage like that in front of the rental furniture store drives me away.
My cheap test of speaker accuracy is a CD of Steinway grand piano. Known source, known sound, nothing can sound like that. Lots of people swear by voice, and a smooth midrange is important, but not as difficult as bottom or top octave solo piano.
In 2007, I saw a picture of a speaker that looked like the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater my band director suggested we go hear at the cinema in 1966. The sound there was amazing. Now that I could afford a pair, you can't buy VOT anymore.
The speaker in question is sold for bar sound, 126 db capable, 300 w RMS 600 W music power rating. None of that matters to me. At 1 v pp, base level, 1/4 watt, they can sound like a piano. Piano does have huge volume peaks when the hammer strikes the string, so it takes some power to reproduce from pp to ff, but 70 W/ch is fine. Peavey SP2g , 15" woofer + 2" horn.
I'm told JBL makes something similar, 4365 or 4367, also possibly 4722. But the nearest JBL pro line to audition are probably Boston, maybe Chicago, but certainly not in Kentucky or Indiana anywhere. JBL here sells consumer garbage, frequency response tolerance unspecified, probably +-10 db. The Peavey SP2g was +-3 db 54 hz to 17 khz, with HD graphed at 20 db down for 2nd & 3rd harmonic 70-12 khz. Anybody else graphing or specifying HD?
Breaking up standing waves in your room is important to maintain accuracy. I use carpet, overstuffed furniture, floor to ceiling record racks, a console piano & organ & 2 organ speakers. My music room sounds better than the store.
Hold your nose, pass all the bright warped guitars & basses, ignore all the black clothes & long greasy hair of the salespeople. In the back of a local musician's supply there may be a pair of these. Take your own CD, they won't have a full frequency sound track like Beethoven Appassionata.
Check for time alignment too: a premium Klipschhorn speaker has flat frequency response but smears a bass drum hit into a descending swoop. The bass has a 50" path to exit from that speaker, the trebel is direct. I use ZZ Top Afterburner LP, the bass drum hits in the should be very flat and sharp. Woke up with Wood track.
If you don't need A0 to C0 notes of a piano, or 16' rank of a pipe organ, you may not need 15" woofer. I certainly enjoyed a speaker that was only -3 db @ 54 hz. I don't listen to action movies, I don't need to hear "accurate" earthquakes on a subwoofer.
Note a lot of PA speakers have a 15" woofer and a 1" horn, and that is not the same thing at all. People have complained about rough mid range if those speakers, and I can imagine that with a crossover too high. 15" woofer disperses poorly at 2.5 or 3 khz. I liked the 1200 hz crossover of the SP2-XT in my room.
Without the bass octave there are a million full range projects in here that convolute the sound of a 6" driver around a 7 liter box and manage to come up with something people on here are always bragging about. I've never heard one that sounded like anything, but that may be because the only demonstrators around here are Circuit City & Best Buy. The huge warehouse with metal ceiling & concrete floor doesn't provide any sort of audition room like a home environment.
See the asathor thread, a diy speaker copying a JBL 4365. Much too much cabinetwork in that, I don't really need all that fine veneer work in my music room. Black fuzzy wool of the bar band speaker was fine with me. Matched a shiny black piano somewhat.
Happy shopping, maybe building.
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it's very good point ! I plan to add acoustic panels into direct reflection points, it will make sound better for sure. But how lower SPL could be than, I'm afraid it will have only very marginal effect.
In my opinion, you don't need special speakers to listen at low volumes. Good speakers sound good at low volumes. You are free to consider small speakers of moderate size, but other than that, a good speaker is a good speaker.
You did say DIY, right? If you're not heart-set on multiway, have a look at some of the FR drivers and their corresponding cabinet designs; isnt it usually pick driver, pick cabinet and construct?
Anyway, FR drivers are in their limelight at the lower listening levels - where the single cone has a better chance at rendering the signal into air-pressure variations without funny stuff happening.
As an older fellow, I like listening to 95+ db spl about as much as I like going 95+ MPH on the highway; it just doesnt do me in the same way as it used to.
Anyway, FR drivers are in their limelight at the lower listening levels - where the single cone has a better chance at rendering the signal into air-pressure variations without funny stuff happening.
As an older fellow, I like listening to 95+ db spl about as much as I like going 95+ MPH on the highway; it just doesnt do me in the same way as it used to.
We have four pairs of DIY speakers, they all sound good at low volumes. For normal level listening - no idea what the dB level is - our 'Slapshot' MTMs by Curt Campbell are the pick. However, Paul Carmody's Classix II are possibly 'better' at lower volumes as they have a sort of built-in 'loudness control' due to the slightly laid back mid-range.
However, that's not the end of it as the RS180Ps used in the MTM have more Xmax than the DC160 used in the Classix. Play Verdi's Requiem or Saint Saens 'Organ Symphony' at a level where the quiet bits are comfortably audible and the musical climaxes will make the DCs bottom out.
Geoff
However, that's not the end of it as the RS180Ps used in the MTM have more Xmax than the DC160 used in the Classix. Play Verdi's Requiem or Saint Saens 'Organ Symphony' at a level where the quiet bits are comfortably audible and the musical climaxes will make the DCs bottom out.
Geoff
so it's nonsens to think about big woofer (10,12 or 15"), about paper cones to come alive sooner ?
It's very attractive design with no crossover and with one point sound, but I'm a bit afraid of some aspects
1/ big horn box - it looks "strange" and I'm not sure how it's suitable to place in small room ?
2/ big open box - how it resonates ? common 2/3-ways sealed/vented boxes are rigid with minimalized resonations, it would be impossible to do in case of big horns ?
3/ high sensitivity - it seems that higher sinsitivity is better, but not for low volume listening with common 70W amp. To let amp working in optimum area, low sensitivity of speakers will be much better.
My old Tannoy system 10 DMT had plastic drivers, and they were very live sounding at low volumes, but also sounded great at very loud volumes.
That I do agree with. Well-recorded piano is a killer for bad speaker systems. Knowing how a live piano sounds, helps btw.
The advice to dampen your room is well-thought also. Somebody I knew built a massive car audio set in his car and used ear plugs just so he could raise the S/N ratio without destroying his hearing. Same applies here. And well-applied damping usually is beneficial to the stereo sound field.
As to big PA speakers: you really have no need for that, except for the controlled directivity such systems often offer. Bedtime stories about those big paper cones revealing details better than small 'hifi' cones, well, are just bedtime stories.
You would then finally be able to raise the volume and not feel the pain for the very first time, and that will be the beginning of a new era in entertainment. 🙂
On a serious note, I would like to say that its definitely possible to waste money on loudspeakers, amplifiers and processors but the money spent on acoustic panels and room treatments is never a waste. There are other advantages as well:
* Some of these panels are so ugly that you now have a lot of artwork on your walls.
* Your heater/cooler/air conditioner seems to work much better than before.
* You have a nice and quiet study room for when there's no music.
* You wouldn't disturb your neighbours with your taste in music/movies (except for the occasional dinosaur that shakes the place).
* You could proudly show off all the above and if you're not rich, even offer people your designs in return for some money.
* You could impress your wife (or other relevant entity) with some "clear music" for the first time.
Edit: Get 2"-3" fiberglass and panel them yourself, do not buy ready-made panels on a per sq feet basis.
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