I know, I know. This should be a topic that is well covered. Except I have looked and although there are references to surround use for speakers, e.g. the Fountek FE85 powered Quark, I cannot seem to find a thread that suggests / discusses a rather good, affordable HT setup.
I am tempted by Paul Carmody's Overnight Sensation based solution. Misc Home Theater at https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/home-theater-speakers
I like the Voxel Sub - or at least I expect to because I have built an Isetta and I'm just blown away by what the Tang Band W5-1138 can do!
He has designed a centre channel that is usefully dinky, using the Hivi B3N mid units and T20 tweeter.
Then it is a pair of OS MTMs for the main front L+R and a pair of OS TMs for the rear pair.
This seems like a nifty and affordable setup and I would like to build them all using the T20 tweeter so they all look and voice the same. I also like the idea of gently but securely screwing a tweeter down rather than hammering it into a hole a la Dayton! However I am having difficulty finding the T20 crossover designs for the MTM and TM. The only link for them is to the Meniscus site which is now defunct.
I already have a pair of C-Notes and like them. They are in my computer room / office system.
I would happily build some more as rears, even though they are more expensive than the OSs. There is a center channel design for them too, although it is a bit big for my needs, but what to do about the main fronts? More C-Note MTs and just turn up the bass? Not the preferred option.
Any other suggestions for an affordable DIY surround speaker package?
Making my own boxes is not a problem. I have tools that produce sawdust really fast!
I am tempted by Paul Carmody's Overnight Sensation based solution. Misc Home Theater at https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/home-theater-speakers
I like the Voxel Sub - or at least I expect to because I have built an Isetta and I'm just blown away by what the Tang Band W5-1138 can do!
He has designed a centre channel that is usefully dinky, using the Hivi B3N mid units and T20 tweeter.
Then it is a pair of OS MTMs for the main front L+R and a pair of OS TMs for the rear pair.
This seems like a nifty and affordable setup and I would like to build them all using the T20 tweeter so they all look and voice the same. I also like the idea of gently but securely screwing a tweeter down rather than hammering it into a hole a la Dayton! However I am having difficulty finding the T20 crossover designs for the MTM and TM. The only link for them is to the Meniscus site which is now defunct.
I already have a pair of C-Notes and like them. They are in my computer room / office system.
I would happily build some more as rears, even though they are more expensive than the OSs. There is a center channel design for them too, although it is a bit big for my needs, but what to do about the main fronts? More C-Note MTs and just turn up the bass? Not the preferred option.
Any other suggestions for an affordable DIY surround speaker package?
Making my own boxes is not a problem. I have tools that produce sawdust really fast!
So your request specifically targets affordability but the body of your message leans towards a small or compact solution?
I can say that in the case of a surround sound solution, DIY is rarely the budget busting solution when you factor in your time and effort to build 5/6 enclosures.
The biggest ‘disconnect’ with small speakers in a 5.1 arrangement is bass extension and power handling. Too small of a woofer, and you either have to cross to a sub high which makes the subwoofer locatable and becomes another ‘speaker’ in the system, and on louder dynamic peaks, the smaller midwoofers can’t keep up and distort terribly.
I’d suggest you consider a commercial offering for the 5 and use your DIY skills at a subwoofer. If your solution doesn’t have to be compact, I strongly suggest you consider 2 subs over one. Two of these in seperate enclosures and wired in parallel to one amp is BY FAR the best budget subwoofer solution out there
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-830667-8-Paper-Cone-SLS-Subwoofer-264-1102?quantity=1
I can say that in the case of a surround sound solution, DIY is rarely the budget busting solution when you factor in your time and effort to build 5/6 enclosures.
The biggest ‘disconnect’ with small speakers in a 5.1 arrangement is bass extension and power handling. Too small of a woofer, and you either have to cross to a sub high which makes the subwoofer locatable and becomes another ‘speaker’ in the system, and on louder dynamic peaks, the smaller midwoofers can’t keep up and distort terribly.
I’d suggest you consider a commercial offering for the 5 and use your DIY skills at a subwoofer. If your solution doesn’t have to be compact, I strongly suggest you consider 2 subs over one. Two of these in seperate enclosures and wired in parallel to one amp is BY FAR the best budget subwoofer solution out there
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-830667-8-Paper-Cone-SLS-Subwoofer-264-1102?quantity=1
You seem to be reading a huge amount into what I have written that simply isn't there.
Money is money. I have a finite amount of that and I choose to spend a lot of it on private aviation - hence less for spending on audio solutions - hence wanting to get max performance for my limited spend.
Time is not money in my case. I am retired. Filling my time with making speaker boxes (cabinets is a rather grand word for my efforts) in my workshop is an enjoyable end in itself. Learning something along the way and keeping the grey matter exercised is also very much part of what I am trying to achieve.
At 16" x 6" x 10" for the Overnight Sensation MTMs - and then some stands as well - I don't personally consider that especially small and compact. When you factor in another pair of TMs and their stands our living room is becoming somewhat more crowded!
I make a mean steel stand by the way!
The only real requirement for compactness is the centre - and that is purely down to our preference.
My best beloved and I prefer to look AT our TV screen, i.e. the screen centre is at eye level when we are on the sofa which is the level all properly installed monitors should be. Staring halfway up a wall at it just gives us neck and head aches. The centre needs to go below the screen, but a larger centre means the sound would be significantly lower than the picture which is just weird!
I'm sure there is a whole body of HT lore that says I am wrong, but after staring at computer monitors for literally decades and still having passable eyesight in our 60s we must be doing something right!
I bought a pair of reputable commercial surround speakers for a flat when I was working away a few years back. I KNOW I can build something hugely better for similar money. I find your suggestion about buying some cheap carp speakers insulting and certainly an unexpectedly unbecoming comment from a diyAudio contributor.
BTW I have already built a subwoofer, active crossover and chipamp to go with my slightly customised C-Notes so I don't need to especially concentrate on just a sub.
And as you seem to like a randomly placed, seemingly almost unrelated URL: https://www.soundimports.eu/en/dayton-audio-sd215a-88.html
Your suggestion of a mono amp with 2 parallel passive subs sounds like a recipe for a very low impedance, to my uneducated mind at least.
Surely if even entry level AV amps have the X.2 sub line level outputs it would make far more sense to send these 2 channels to a stereo chipamp and then off to the subs.
Money is money. I have a finite amount of that and I choose to spend a lot of it on private aviation - hence less for spending on audio solutions - hence wanting to get max performance for my limited spend.
Time is not money in my case. I am retired. Filling my time with making speaker boxes (cabinets is a rather grand word for my efforts) in my workshop is an enjoyable end in itself. Learning something along the way and keeping the grey matter exercised is also very much part of what I am trying to achieve.
At 16" x 6" x 10" for the Overnight Sensation MTMs - and then some stands as well - I don't personally consider that especially small and compact. When you factor in another pair of TMs and their stands our living room is becoming somewhat more crowded!
I make a mean steel stand by the way!
The only real requirement for compactness is the centre - and that is purely down to our preference.
My best beloved and I prefer to look AT our TV screen, i.e. the screen centre is at eye level when we are on the sofa which is the level all properly installed monitors should be. Staring halfway up a wall at it just gives us neck and head aches. The centre needs to go below the screen, but a larger centre means the sound would be significantly lower than the picture which is just weird!
I'm sure there is a whole body of HT lore that says I am wrong, but after staring at computer monitors for literally decades and still having passable eyesight in our 60s we must be doing something right!
I bought a pair of reputable commercial surround speakers for a flat when I was working away a few years back. I KNOW I can build something hugely better for similar money. I find your suggestion about buying some cheap carp speakers insulting and certainly an unexpectedly unbecoming comment from a diyAudio contributor.
BTW I have already built a subwoofer, active crossover and chipamp to go with my slightly customised C-Notes so I don't need to especially concentrate on just a sub.
And as you seem to like a randomly placed, seemingly almost unrelated URL: https://www.soundimports.eu/en/dayton-audio-sd215a-88.html
Your suggestion of a mono amp with 2 parallel passive subs sounds like a recipe for a very low impedance, to my uneducated mind at least.
Surely if even entry level AV amps have the X.2 sub line level outputs it would make far more sense to send these 2 channels to a stereo chipamp and then off to the subs.
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Here is the MTM schematic... I'll keep looking for the TM...
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...4-ohm-version-of-hivi-b4n.297411/post-4845262
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...4-ohm-version-of-hivi-b4n.297411/post-4845262
A decent speaker.
My 1 experience with that at a VI diyFEST ended up with Bob seeling a lot of EL70s The OS were compared to a set of mMar-Ken and the sonics. The sonics had peopel runign to clean Bob out of his (discounted) stock. NLA but it does suggest that a number of (probably) less pricey FR speakers out performed them.
Almost any diy loudspeakr can be put to surround purposes. thay should have simialr voicing as the fronts, need to fit into the space.
dave
I can't help with advice regarding your speaker choices, but would suggest you build the stereo fronts and surrounds first and set up your AV amp without a centre channel.
If it's just you and your other half watching in an average UK room you may find the bigger stereo pair perform better as a phantom centre than a 'compromised' centre speaker.
(My room is only 10 foot wide and I use a stereo pair at the moment, I don't think adding a centre would make things much better. When watching films we move the settee to have us both in the sweet spot)
Rob.
If it's just you and your other half watching in an average UK room you may find the bigger stereo pair perform better as a phantom centre than a 'compromised' centre speaker.
(My room is only 10 foot wide and I use a stereo pair at the moment, I don't think adding a centre would make things much better. When watching films we move the settee to have us both in the sweet spot)
Rob.
I guess that is essentially what I am asking: can people suggest different sized but similarly voiced speakers that will all play nicely together as the front and rear pairs of a surround system.
So your request specifically targets affordability but the body of your message leans towards a small or compact solution?
I can say that in the case of a surround sound solution, DIY is rarely the budget busting solution when you factor in your time and effort to build 5/6 enclosures.
The biggest ‘disconnect’ with small speakers in a 5.1 arrangement is bass extension and power handling. Too small of a woofer, and you either have to cross to a sub high which makes the subwoofer locatable and becomes another ‘speaker’ in the system, and on louder dynamic peaks, the smaller midwoofers can’t keep up and distort terribly.
I’d suggest you consider a commercial offering for the 5 and use your DIY skills at a subwoofer. If your solution doesn’t have to be compact, I strongly suggest you consider 2 subs over one.
I can say that in the case of a surround sound solution, DIY is rarely the budget busting solution when you factor in your time and effort to build 5/6 enclosures.
The biggest ‘disconnect’ with small speakers in a 5.1 arrangement is bass extension and power handling. Too small of a woofer, and you either have to cross to a sub high which makes the subwoofer locatable and becomes another ‘speaker’ in the system, and on louder dynamic peaks, the smaller midwoofers can’t keep up and distort terribly.
I’d suggest you consider a commercial offering for the 5 and use your DIY skills at a subwoofer. If your solution doesn’t have to be compact, I strongly suggest you consider 2 subs over one.
Ok….do whatever your head and heart tell you then.
There‘s quite a few premises often ignored in DIY……I share with this community as my ‘diy’ efforts have been in commercial development…..same logic…….but with consequence when you don’t follow the physics
I linked an 8” subwoofer…..2 in parallel equal a nominal 4ohm load…..what most sub plate amps are specifically built for
4” woofers playing 6 octaves is far from any resemblance to a hifi solution…..take offense all you want. It’s passable in a desktop/nearfield application at 80db. Dynamic passages in HT in the midfield?……again……why bother with DIY if there’s no purpose……the purpose shouldn’t be answering the ‘could I’ question. Critical thinkers as ‘should I’ first.
But hey…..enjoy your DIY quest and most important is to do whatever makes you happy in this life. Take my advise with a grain of salt….I’m probably just grumpy from mixing multi channel audio for film for too long.
Again with the assumptions about what I am considering.
Who mentioned a plate amp? I use LM3886 chipamps!
Who mentioned a 'nominal' load - I can do the maths. I was more concerned about the real impedance as the frequency drops, although as I indicated, not being an expert, I would try to err on the side of caution!
Who mentioned hifi? This is surround - it's in the title for heaven's sake!
Would you actually like to make a positive suggestion as to what might constitute a useful set of speakers for surround use rather than just take me to task for your assumptions?
Who mentioned a plate amp? I use LM3886 chipamps!
Who mentioned a 'nominal' load - I can do the maths. I was more concerned about the real impedance as the frequency drops, although as I indicated, not being an expert, I would try to err on the side of caution!
Who mentioned hifi? This is surround - it's in the title for heaven's sake!
Would you actually like to make a positive suggestion as to what might constitute a useful set of speakers for surround use rather than just take me to task for your assumptions?
I assume you are going to be using these exclusively on a boat, so you should consider only waterproof speaekers! (Just kidding.)
As far as #2:
The Tang Band subwoofer used in the Voxel is pretty amazing for what it is. But something like the Dayton Audio SD215A-88 will go lower and move quite a bit more air with the 8" driver. It will need a bigger box, but it does not need a BIG box.
One of the nice things about the Overnight Sensations designs is that Paul created so many variations...TM, MTM, TMM towers, Center, etc. Most DIY designs are just mains and you are stuck trying to voice match something for surrounds and center. The dedicated center speaker is the biggest challenge, because hardly anyone is designing full DIY 5 channel systems. If you are willing to go with a "phantom center" then that opens up a lot more choices. You can also just use a TM as the center but I know you are limited for space - you could probably lay it on its side (not sure how well that works).
One design that comes to mind, because it was brought up recently in another thread, are Jeff Bagby's Sopranos. But really any TM could work. Also, nothing wrong with the Overnight Sensations, and they are probably one of the more inexpensive builds you can do.
Thanks for that!
I have a little bit of experience with the Tang Band as I recently built Paul C's Isetta boom box. It is a mad driver - in a good way - even running on batteries!
I also know about the the SD215A-88 - I have built a passive sub that uses one. Well 2 subs, actually. I built a 2.5 cu ft one with the SD215 in but I didn't really brace it enough and it was also just too big for where it is used. One lives and learns. I have since built a better braced and foam lined 1 cu ft cube for the driver which works a lot better. I will probably try this (together with its separate chipamp) in whatever surround setup gets built to see how well it fits.
AV audio is a Cambridge Audio TV2 soundbase at the moment. It was a shop soiled bargain and it works / sounds great for regular TV being vastly superior to the sound from the TV itself.
However with films we are always chasing the volume around as we turn it down for the loud chase and explosiony bits but then have to bump it up again to hear the dialogue. We really could use the 5.1 separation of dialogue in the centre and music / effects in the L+R so the OS centre is a key attraction.
I will check out the Sopranos. Thanks for that!
Rob
I have a little bit of experience with the Tang Band as I recently built Paul C's Isetta boom box. It is a mad driver - in a good way - even running on batteries!
I also know about the the SD215A-88 - I have built a passive sub that uses one. Well 2 subs, actually. I built a 2.5 cu ft one with the SD215 in but I didn't really brace it enough and it was also just too big for where it is used. One lives and learns. I have since built a better braced and foam lined 1 cu ft cube for the driver which works a lot better. I will probably try this (together with its separate chipamp) in whatever surround setup gets built to see how well it fits.
AV audio is a Cambridge Audio TV2 soundbase at the moment. It was a shop soiled bargain and it works / sounds great for regular TV being vastly superior to the sound from the TV itself.
However with films we are always chasing the volume around as we turn it down for the loud chase and explosiony bits but then have to bump it up again to hear the dialogue. We really could use the 5.1 separation of dialogue in the centre and music / effects in the L+R so the OS centre is a key attraction.
I will check out the Sopranos. Thanks for that!
Rob
No 'lore'; FYI/FWIW, historically prosound (behind screen) cinema places the mids/HF at 2/3 screen height where folk's heads are focused and in small cinemas the speakers are placed directly above the screen with the horn's polar response designed/tilted as required and if a typical box speaker, then the tweeter/mid inverted (i.e. speaker upside down), angled down and in all cases the surrounds are at same height, so properly done, no sense of, subconscious need to look up.
That said, 'atmos' includes in ceiling speakers with its own set of specs.
That's interesting. Thanks, GM.
My musings earlier were more to do with the opticals of the screen rather that the audio component.
I have been reading a bit about atmos and ceiling speakers. Interesting idea that aside from bachelor pads is probably not likely to get much use in many domestic environments. My other half is very accommodating but draws the line at cutting holes in the ceiling!
My musings earlier were more to do with the opticals of the screen rather that the audio component.
I have been reading a bit about atmos and ceiling speakers. Interesting idea that aside from bachelor pads is probably not likely to get much use in many domestic environments. My other half is very accommodating but draws the line at cutting holes in the ceiling
!