'Sounds' about right, though there is [use to be?] a prosound horn loaded ribbon back in the early 2000s that had it all.
GM
GM
Dipole Ribbon Vertical Array FTW. Though absolute clarity goes to the plasma..
..and really, a good dipole linesource electrostat for the midrange isn't going to be bettered either. Though I have heard excellent large format compression and horn combo's that nearly equaled the level of clarity, and were quite superior with that "force"/"dynamic" subjective response.
Domes are a compromise.. BUT as far as wide bandwidth with decent clarity and providing a more "tangible" 3D image, they can be as good or better than a lot of other technologies, particularly most compression drivers (in any given waveguide). ..still have to pick the right one and use it correctly though.
..and really, a good dipole linesource electrostat for the midrange isn't going to be bettered either. Though I have heard excellent large format compression and horn combo's that nearly equaled the level of clarity, and were quite superior with that "force"/"dynamic" subjective response.
Domes are a compromise.. BUT as far as wide bandwidth with decent clarity and providing a more "tangible" 3D image, they can be as good or better than a lot of other technologies, particularly most compression drivers (in any given waveguide). ..still have to pick the right one and use it correctly though.
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Mayhem13 my experience concurs with yours too.
The Raal tweeter in the Sierra Acoustics' Sierra2 was fuzzier, less detailed than SB's Beryllium tweeter (SB29BAC) in Jeff Bagby's Revolution Be speaker.
The SB in turn cannot compare to the JBL 2435 beryllium CD I use with the M2 waveguide which is much more relaxed and has no power compression.
The Raal tweeter in the Sierra Acoustics' Sierra2 was fuzzier, less detailed than SB's Beryllium tweeter (SB29BAC) in Jeff Bagby's Revolution Be speaker.
The SB in turn cannot compare to the JBL 2435 beryllium CD I use with the M2 waveguide which is much more relaxed and has no power compression.
Agreed. I can't find anything comparable to JBL 2435 beryllium, even Community M200 have an anemic sound compared to it, but some Prosound ribbons have more sparks in 10-20Khz region.
Heard these recently at a trade show Pro-ribbon - Alcons Audio
best combination of smooth, clean, and powerful HF/VHF i think I've heard.
But they don't sell drivers alone, heck they won't even sell a speaker without their processing amp. High-end pro-audio typical trend....
best combination of smooth, clean, and powerful HF/VHF i think I've heard.
But they don't sell drivers alone, heck they won't even sell a speaker without their processing amp. High-end pro-audio typical trend....
I think the Alcons ribbon might be related or even the same as the one GM alluded to.
Dutch company Stage Accompany came up with a pro ribbon in the '80s but at some point went bust.
If I remember correctly at that time Dutch company Alcons was created to continue building that ribbon and smewhere along the line Stage Accompany was resurrected.
(I didn't know the latter until I just googled them and they seem to exist again).
However shouldn't we really throw Air Motion Transformers into the ring the OP has created?
Dutch company Stage Accompany came up with a pro ribbon in the '80s but at some point went bust.
If I remember correctly at that time Dutch company Alcons was created to continue building that ribbon and smewhere along the line Stage Accompany was resurrected.
(I didn't know the latter until I just googled them and they seem to exist again).
However shouldn't we really throw Air Motion Transformers into the ring the OP has created?
I have a pair of those SA ribbon tweeters.
Use them for pa, but they are very high quality.
Appogee full range ribbons with the ksa250, only amp that could play them at that time, was the best hifi experience I ever had.
Use them for pa, but they are very high quality.
Appogee full range ribbons with the ksa250, only amp that could play them at that time, was the best hifi experience I ever had.
I can, Classic Audio Loudspeaker's field coil version of this same driver whom I heard without realising what it was!
Those speakers would end my diy for highest end speaker journey...
Yes we should. A fan cooled 8" Mundorf P.A. AMT seems to beat any compression driver in clean output above 2khz as shown in tests done by a French start-up. I believe he goes by PVRX on here and on a couple French forums.
Beyma AMT's offer similar performance but won't have the long term out capabilities as a compression driver. No consequence in a home setting.
Using compression drivers in home at less than 1w can sound very clean and compete with just about any other tech. The linearity does not scale up with high power use. IMD becomes pretty nasty at higher levels.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the frequency response of a $60 ribbon tweeter
Here's the frequency response of a $25 dome tweeter
Here's the frequency response of a $200 compression driver
I think that when people talk about the "delicate" sound of a ribbon tweeter, what they're actually describing is it's narrow directivity and it's very high efficiency above 5khz.
Basically all loudspeakers begin to roll off at high frequency. This is caused by a combination of mass and inductance. Ribbons have virtually no mass and no inductance.
Hence, ribbons have insanely high efficiency above 5khz. There's almost nothing that compares.
I think that it's possible to make domes and compression drivers sound like ribbons by simply limiting the vertical directivity.
The devil is in the details, of course. Diffraction is the enemy. Though a BMS 4552 is about as efficient as a ribbon above 5khz, it has a 90 degree reflector.
A simple $25 dome tweeter can perform very nicely above 5khz. But it's not as efficient as a ribbon or a compression driver.
It is really and truly a maddening series of tradeoffs. These tradeoffs pop up in my designs all the time.
For instance, I built a waveguide with a ribbon, then found that the narrow horizontal directivity and low power handling was a bummer. (Ribbon Unity Horn)
My current project uses a waveguide to narrow the directivity of a $20 dome, and I think it works nicely, especially for the low cost: "Unitized" Image Control Waveguide
I have a pile of compression drivers in the garage, but I've generally shied away from them lately. I think inexpensive domes are pretty difficult to beat on waveguides. You WILL get additional output with a compression driver, but it's difficult to justify the cost. You CAN buy compression drivers for $50-$75, but I don't think they sound as "extended" as a 3/4" dome. Even when the frequency response looks comparable, I find that there's something a bit "dull" about most compression drivers. My best guess is that it's because compression drivers use controlled resonances to extend the high end. Basically the mass of a compression driver diaphragm is many times higher than a 3/4" dome.
The dome can't get as loud, but when the volume doesn't exceed 110dB, they're tough to beat.
This is a really difficult one though. If my speaker budget was $1000 a pop, I might be using ring radiator compression drivers. They're compelling.
Very compelling at that price. To me, it looks a heck of a lot like a knockoff of the BMS 4552. That kinda bugs me, but the price sure is nice.
Eminence jumped the gun on the expiration of the ring radiator patent (which, oddly enough, is owned by Cerwin Vega not BMS.)
B&C released their ring radiator literally the day after the patent expired, so clearly they were working on the technology, quietly, for years. Faital has a ring radiator coming out.
Based on the timelines and the fact that Eminence was first to market with an unlicensed ring radiator compression driver, it definitely makes me wonder if they're just putting their name on a Chinese clone. But that's pure speculation on my part.
The B&C and Faital offerings are clearly an original design.
Eminence jumped the gun on the expiration of the ring radiator patent (which, oddly enough, is owned by Cerwin Vega not BMS.)
B&C released their ring radiator literally the day after the patent expired, so clearly they were working on the technology, quietly, for years. Faital has a ring radiator coming out.
Based on the timelines and the fact that Eminence was first to market with an unlicensed ring radiator compression driver, it definitely makes me wonder if they're just putting their name on a Chinese clone. But that's pure speculation on my part.
The B&C and Faital offerings are clearly an original design.
Eminence drivers are manufactured in-house. They do not put their name on other companies' products.
Wolf
Wolf
You heard this wrong. They are taller, response narrows, but whether or not this is a bad thing....
.....and I agree with Patrick.....low to moderate output, domes are hard to beat for the cost.......but their drawbacks become evident quickly when pushed.....
Donuts to dollars, the cheap JBL knockoff WG and a $100 poly diaphragm CD is a hard combination to best at any price IMO and that’s not just subjectively speaking........I think just about everyone has seen those polars before.
Donuts to dollars, the cheap JBL knockoff WG and a $100 poly diaphragm CD is a hard combination to best at any price IMO and that’s not just subjectively speaking........I think just about everyone has seen those polars before.
That's the one, thanks! In a class of one at the time for me, but the price! Have yet to audition any Beryllium or electrostatics other than Martin Logan [worst HT reference system ever!], so can't say it's the absolute best.
Wasn't aware that SA was in so many different speaker system applications, I only remember the ribbon horn; some of their offerings need to be auditioned for HIFI/HT apps: Stage Accompany
Bummer not available in NA. 🙁
GM
funny, i have always thought it were the very wide horisontal dispersion that gave it the delicate sound
"I often hear people babble on about the shimmer, sparkle and air of ribbon tweeters. These tests show where these "special effects" are coming from - distortion. Ribbons do have a unique distortion profile that many will find enjoyable with some music. .."
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