You need to get the mechanism out and inspect.
It can be as simple as a loose/broken belt, which can cost a few cents but can be a pain in the @ss to replace.
I've been there too many times...
A gear with some broken dents is a possibility too.
It can be as simple as a loose/broken belt, which can cost a few cents but can be a pain in the @ss to replace.
I've been there too many times...
A gear with some broken dents is a possibility too.
Update!
Okay, i'll admit my previous description of the problem is a bit dated, this was what I was going through this spring when I first got the unit and was trying to troubleshoot it.
Tonight I just opened up the unit again and have had a somewhat different experience. I am wondering if being in a different house (with different humidity, temp) would have anything to do with it, but here is a description of what I saw tonight:
First, I popped a tape in, pressed play and the thing did a repeat of earlier this summer: The tape jumped around a tiny bit, as did the numbers, it hit some sorta snag and the unit displayed a flashing "Caution" warning. Ejecting the tape, I went to see if it would do the same thing at a different point (I first tried with the tape fully rewound). Trying to manually move the tape around, I found where it left off there was a little bit of a snag, which I pulled through to a different point in the tape. I put the tape back in and hit play, and the thing seemed to work!!
Now the thing seems to play, rewind, fast forward perfectly (though the tape looks like its moving very slowly when in "play" the counter works correctly so I'll assume its alright). "Play" appears to be working, counter is fine, tape is moving but no sound, I don't know if the tape is blank though or not. Unfortunately I can't seem to get the thing to record
I'll be the first to say I'm not sure I know what I'm doing for this part, so here it goes:
I hooked the thing up to my Sony CA70es via rca plugs and set some music on my player. Next, I hit the record button and a very nice sound level scale pops up on the bottom of the display screen. Adjusting the rec level dial shows the scale is responsive, everything is looking good. Looking into the transport however shows that the tape isn't moving, the tape even slack like the thing isn't even trying to pull it. Wtf? The transport worked very nicely for the other functions. This is where I think I could use some help, I see a bunch of different buttons on the front of this thing relating to ID's, numbering, tracks, etc and I have no idea what I should try as I've never used another dat machine besides this. Do I need to create a track before I start recording and how would I do this?
Thanks for the response so far, it has been very helpful
Okay, i'll admit my previous description of the problem is a bit dated, this was what I was going through this spring when I first got the unit and was trying to troubleshoot it.
Tonight I just opened up the unit again and have had a somewhat different experience. I am wondering if being in a different house (with different humidity, temp) would have anything to do with it, but here is a description of what I saw tonight:
First, I popped a tape in, pressed play and the thing did a repeat of earlier this summer: The tape jumped around a tiny bit, as did the numbers, it hit some sorta snag and the unit displayed a flashing "Caution" warning. Ejecting the tape, I went to see if it would do the same thing at a different point (I first tried with the tape fully rewound). Trying to manually move the tape around, I found where it left off there was a little bit of a snag, which I pulled through to a different point in the tape. I put the tape back in and hit play, and the thing seemed to work!!
Now the thing seems to play, rewind, fast forward perfectly (though the tape looks like its moving very slowly when in "play" the counter works correctly so I'll assume its alright). "Play" appears to be working, counter is fine, tape is moving but no sound, I don't know if the tape is blank though or not. Unfortunately I can't seem to get the thing to record
I'll be the first to say I'm not sure I know what I'm doing for this part, so here it goes:I hooked the thing up to my Sony CA70es via rca plugs and set some music on my player. Next, I hit the record button and a very nice sound level scale pops up on the bottom of the display screen. Adjusting the rec level dial shows the scale is responsive, everything is looking good. Looking into the transport however shows that the tape isn't moving, the tape even slack like the thing isn't even trying to pull it. Wtf? The transport worked very nicely for the other functions. This is where I think I could use some help, I see a bunch of different buttons on the front of this thing relating to ID's, numbering, tracks, etc and I have no idea what I should try as I've never used another dat machine besides this. Do I need to create a track before I start recording and how would I do this?
Thanks for the response so far, it has been very helpful
A few possibilities although I never had my hands on the unit so bear with me.
1) You need to press Rec and Play simultaneously.
2) The tape is write protected.
3) Your transport is exposed to (heavy) light and the sensors are
communicating the wrong information. Cover the transport
temporarily or close the unit, pull the mains for 10 seconds and
retry.
The fact that the unit seems to have been recovered on his own
would kind of confirm the dry grease on some parts.
It certainly needs recalibration and a good checkup.
I don't know how skilled you are but you need at least the complete service procedure.
/Hugo
1) You need to press Rec and Play simultaneously.
2) The tape is write protected.
3) Your transport is exposed to (heavy) light and the sensors are
communicating the wrong information. Cover the transport
temporarily or close the unit, pull the mains for 10 seconds and
retry.
The fact that the unit seems to have been recovered on his own
would kind of confirm the dry grease on some parts.
It certainly needs recalibration and a good checkup.
I don't know how skilled you are but you need at least the complete service procedure.
/Hugo
Netlist said:
Probably it doesn't need to be simultaneous. REC puts the player in 'DAC/ADC' mode, and it serves to adjust recording levels. This is very important in digital recording, it gets very nasty when you pass the 0db level.
Next you press PLAY to start recording. This is a motorized microprocessor controlled mechanism, if it was all mechanical (like old tape decks), usually you would have to press both REC and PLAY simultaneously.
Btw, it must say 'Fuzzy logic' somewhere.
[private joke]Netlist said:
😀
Netlist said:
Yes, indeed.
Or a very loose belt needing replacement. It may be working now because it prefers this climate. 😀
I have one of these machines, and we have several at work still. Until recently, we used to base a practical around them that was designed to give students experience of lining up a DAT servo system…
Please bear in mind that I haven't worked on or listened to one of these for a long time. All this is from old memory...
These things were top of the range ES machines, and rather over-engineered. Lots of "tweaks" like "audio grade" capacitors and copper chassis…Very heavy and nice looking, even after nearly 20 years. Nice loading mechanism… Like the capstan and head drum, the reel motors are direct-drive - there are only 3 belts in the machine - two for the loading mechanism, and the other is a small one associated with the tape threading. Pretty easy to see if they're causing problems...
Mechanical problems:
1. Grease drying up. This can affect all parts of the mechanism, but there is one tape guide in particular (to the right of the mechanism IIRC) that relies on just spring pressure to return to the "unlace" position. As the grease in the bearing ages, this action starts to take too long and eventually it gets to the stage where the loading mechanism ejects the tape before this arm has returned the tape to the cassette. Resulting in a broken tape - nasty. This fault also affects some Sony VCR's. Other manufactures avoid this by arranging for the arm to be pulled back by a cam or similar…
To fix this, you need to clean the old grease out of the bearing and renew. Unfortunately, this requires a major strip-down. Hopefully you won't need to do this yet, but do keep an eye on it...
2. Brakes sticking. Common after long periods of misuse. When this has happened you have to remove the loading mechanism (IIRC) to get at the spools. You just need to turn them to break the bond, but they need an incredible amount of force to release! The proper "fix" is to renew the brakes.
3. Pinch rollers: Can go soft or hard with age, again replacement is the cure.
4. There are a lot of preset adjustments for the servos. Resist the temptation to alter them!
Audio performance:
The D/A converters aren't bad. Although I repeat that it's been a while since I tried comparing them to anything. However, the A/D converters can be terrible! It varies from sample to sample, and this is because there is a preset adjustment to set up. However, it's not hard to set up - IIRC you need just an oscillator and a 'scope...
Ok, you might think this is a minor problem because you can record digitally. Not so! You'll find that it won't let you record from CD because it sees the copy-protect bit in the channel status data is set. The software doesn't know about SCMS, so won't check the Generation Status flag. Result: no digital recording possible.
This is a controversial statement, but I'll make it anyway. Comparing this machine (linear PCM, no compression, but 1980's AD/DA technology) to my minidisc desk, the MD won hands down. ATRAC compression is much more transparent than the 1980's converters (especially that A/D). But you might have better luck? And despite that, they're still great machines!
That's all I can remember for now…
Mark
Please bear in mind that I haven't worked on or listened to one of these for a long time. All this is from old memory...
These things were top of the range ES machines, and rather over-engineered. Lots of "tweaks" like "audio grade" capacitors and copper chassis…Very heavy and nice looking, even after nearly 20 years. Nice loading mechanism… Like the capstan and head drum, the reel motors are direct-drive - there are only 3 belts in the machine - two for the loading mechanism, and the other is a small one associated with the tape threading. Pretty easy to see if they're causing problems...
Mechanical problems:
1. Grease drying up. This can affect all parts of the mechanism, but there is one tape guide in particular (to the right of the mechanism IIRC) that relies on just spring pressure to return to the "unlace" position. As the grease in the bearing ages, this action starts to take too long and eventually it gets to the stage where the loading mechanism ejects the tape before this arm has returned the tape to the cassette. Resulting in a broken tape - nasty. This fault also affects some Sony VCR's. Other manufactures avoid this by arranging for the arm to be pulled back by a cam or similar…
To fix this, you need to clean the old grease out of the bearing and renew. Unfortunately, this requires a major strip-down. Hopefully you won't need to do this yet, but do keep an eye on it...
2. Brakes sticking. Common after long periods of misuse. When this has happened you have to remove the loading mechanism (IIRC) to get at the spools. You just need to turn them to break the bond, but they need an incredible amount of force to release! The proper "fix" is to renew the brakes.
3. Pinch rollers: Can go soft or hard with age, again replacement is the cure.
4. There are a lot of preset adjustments for the servos. Resist the temptation to alter them!
Audio performance:
The D/A converters aren't bad. Although I repeat that it's been a while since I tried comparing them to anything. However, the A/D converters can be terrible! It varies from sample to sample, and this is because there is a preset adjustment to set up. However, it's not hard to set up - IIRC you need just an oscillator and a 'scope...
Ok, you might think this is a minor problem because you can record digitally. Not so! You'll find that it won't let you record from CD because it sees the copy-protect bit in the channel status data is set. The software doesn't know about SCMS, so won't check the Generation Status flag. Result: no digital recording possible.
This is a controversial statement, but I'll make it anyway. Comparing this machine (linear PCM, no compression, but 1980's AD/DA technology) to my minidisc desk, the MD won hands down. ATRAC compression is much more transparent than the 1980's converters (especially that A/D). But you might have better luck? And despite that, they're still great machines!
That's all I can remember for now…
Mark
Following a similar thread on audiokarma forums, I found another user of this particular machine who still apparently uses the thing often. He agreed that the recording button merely puts the machine in "recording mode" but does not actually start the recording. To record, hold down the record and press play. Now for the kicker:
I went to try this out last night and ran into the same problem I encountered this spring!
The machine did not function at all, just sorta froze up and flashed the "caution" at me regardless what I did. Fortunately, I think I may have located the cause of the problem, something so obvious I can't believe it was overlooked. My machine is an international model and has an input voltage of 100v, not my household 120v. I'm wondering if my house has a slightly different voltage than at my dorm this spring and if that subtle difference is making the difference. To recall, I think I had a number of high drain appliances running when this thing seemed worked perfectly the other night. Would this sort of logic make any sense? I haven't studied circuits yet but hope to learn more when I do this spring. For now though, I think i'm stuck cause I dont' have a 100v stepdown transformer, something I hope I might also have access to this spring. Any other ideas what sort of problems this voltage difference could be causing?
BTW, thanks for the opinions on the dac/adc's initially when I posted this thread it seemed several people were interested in these, but I sort of hessitantly wondered about the real quality of nearly 20 yr old dac/adc's. Thats interesting that you said these things can be adjusted, if I do end up gettng this thing running, would a standard service manual contain info on this?
I went to try this out last night and ran into the same problem I encountered this spring!
The machine did not function at all, just sorta froze up and flashed the "caution" at me regardless what I did. Fortunately, I think I may have located the cause of the problem, something so obvious I can't believe it was overlooked. My machine is an international model and has an input voltage of 100v, not my household 120v. I'm wondering if my house has a slightly different voltage than at my dorm this spring and if that subtle difference is making the difference. To recall, I think I had a number of high drain appliances running when this thing seemed worked perfectly the other night. Would this sort of logic make any sense? I haven't studied circuits yet but hope to learn more when I do this spring. For now though, I think i'm stuck cause I dont' have a 100v stepdown transformer, something I hope I might also have access to this spring. Any other ideas what sort of problems this voltage difference could be causing?BTW, thanks for the opinions on the dac/adc's initially when I posted this thread it seemed several people were interested in these, but I sort of hessitantly wondered about the real quality of nearly 20 yr old dac/adc's. Thats interesting that you said these things can be adjusted, if I do end up gettng this thing running, would a standard service manual contain info on this?
It may sound as a relief as well as a disappointment but the mains voltage will have nothing to do with your problem.
Don't ask me why they marked it 100V.
That spring...you'll need it. Get on your knees till you found it 😉 there's a good chance it's not available anymore.
Mark: very nice reply.
/Hugo
Don't ask me why they marked it 100V.
That spring...you'll need it. Get on your knees till you found it 😉 there's a good chance it's not available anymore.
Mark: very nice reply.
/Hugo
Any other opinions out there for the voltage difference? Admittedly i'm a bit biased, wanting the thing to work if I try it at 100v, but the guy on the other forums did say that 120 could cause this version damage or malfunction. I'm not doubting what you said Netlist, just trying to figure out which is right when I currently have no way to test.
You might be correct, 20% is a bit high. But I doubt it would be the cause of the problems with the mechanics.
/Hugo 🙂
/Hugo 🙂
I have serious doubts that the line voltage is issue with the "caution" indication. It is more likely that the mahine is detecting problems with tape tension due to problems with transport mechanical components.
One thing you could try that seems unlikely to make your situation any worse would be to get some of the rubber reconditioner stuff and apply it to the rubber bits in the transport. I used some stuff called "Rubber Renue" made by MG Chemicals (sold at Fry's and other electronics places) to extend the life of a laser printer that stopped feeding paper properly because the rubber had dried up and shrunk.
The unit should work fine on 120VAC. It is apparently a Japanese unit that someone brought to the US. I have several pieces of equipment like that from when I used to live in Japan. I have never had any problem with any of the equipment operating at 120V. I would not recommend long term operation at 120V- it would be best to reduce the voltage a little.
If you can't get a 100V/120V converter transformer, get almost any line input toroid transformer. They usually have two 120V primaries so they can be wired for either 120 or 240VAC in. Use one winding for power input and the other to power the deck. You can drop the voltage a bit by winding a few extra turns of wire around the core in opposition to the existing coils. Leave the secondary winding(s) unconnected, unless it happens to be about 20V, in which case you can use it to reduce the output voltage without adding any extra turns.
I_F
One thing you could try that seems unlikely to make your situation any worse would be to get some of the rubber reconditioner stuff and apply it to the rubber bits in the transport. I used some stuff called "Rubber Renue" made by MG Chemicals (sold at Fry's and other electronics places) to extend the life of a laser printer that stopped feeding paper properly because the rubber had dried up and shrunk.
The unit should work fine on 120VAC. It is apparently a Japanese unit that someone brought to the US. I have several pieces of equipment like that from when I used to live in Japan. I have never had any problem with any of the equipment operating at 120V. I would not recommend long term operation at 120V- it would be best to reduce the voltage a little.
If you can't get a 100V/120V converter transformer, get almost any line input toroid transformer. They usually have two 120V primaries so they can be wired for either 120 or 240VAC in. Use one winding for power input and the other to power the deck. You can drop the voltage a bit by winding a few extra turns of wire around the core in opposition to the existing coils. Leave the secondary winding(s) unconnected, unless it happens to be about 20V, in which case you can use it to reduce the output voltage without adding any extra turns.
I_F
IT WORKS!!! 😀 😀 😀 Disappointed that I was able to get this machine to work two nights ago when I didn't know how to access the record function, I attempted to recreate the settings for when I had my previous success. Same time of day, same wall outlet, room temp, etc and the thing works!!
Now i've got it recording DSOTM from my CDP CA70es onto a DAT tape and I've verified that it is functional and can play back!!
I'm estatic to know that the thing is actually capable of working since I'd pretty much given up hope over the course of the summer. Maybe i'll see if I can find the money for a service manual and a step down transformer and see if I can't get the thing to run a bit more consistently.
BTW, anyone know how to erase, create tracks and other advanced functions with this model? I'm assuming I can record over, but i'm sure there is probably a more intelligent way of editing the tape.
Nice to hear that you were able to make it work.
You will need a users manual to explore the full richness of the features of the deck.
I browsed google a bit but I can't find anything for 'free'.
/Hugo 🙂
You will need a users manual to explore the full richness of the features of the deck.
I browsed google a bit but I can't find anything for 'free'.
/Hugo 🙂
It sounds like you've got some sort of intermittent fault, so it's worth checking for dry joints and bad connectors. Another possibility is that one of the various microswitches on the transport is playing up - these switches are there to detect things like cassette type and deck status (laced, unlaced, etc). Normal contact cleaner/lubricant should help - be careful not to let it get all over the transport!
Another possibility is the dew sensor. These machines, in common with VHS machines, have a thermistor to sense the temperature of the transport. If it's too cold, all functions are locked out and a heater is switched on to warm up the head drum. This is to avoid the scenario of moisture causing the tape to stick to the spinning head drum and destroying the tape. Certainly, this might explain the "caution" message.
Having said that, I can't immediately see if the temperature sensing circuit is linked to the control circuit - it is possible that the heater function just works on its own. My schematics are really bad photocopies...
Either way, I agree that the mains voltage is not the issue - the supplies are well-regulated. I'll try asking around - some people here have more experience with these machines than me.
And yes, the service manual does give the ADC adjustment procedure. Don't be tempted to try adjusting anything without the manual!
Mark
Another possibility is the dew sensor. These machines, in common with VHS machines, have a thermistor to sense the temperature of the transport. If it's too cold, all functions are locked out and a heater is switched on to warm up the head drum. This is to avoid the scenario of moisture causing the tape to stick to the spinning head drum and destroying the tape. Certainly, this might explain the "caution" message.
Having said that, I can't immediately see if the temperature sensing circuit is linked to the control circuit - it is possible that the heater function just works on its own. My schematics are really bad photocopies...
Either way, I agree that the mains voltage is not the issue - the supplies are well-regulated. I'll try asking around - some people here have more experience with these machines than me.
And yes, the service manual does give the ADC adjustment procedure. Don't be tempted to try adjusting anything without the manual!
Mark
mhennessy said:
The consensus is to check the brakes. In most instances of "caution" showing, it means that one or both of the reels aren't turning to establish the correct tape tension. Check my first post for more details about this.
If the brakes are sticky you need to use the machine at least once a day to stop the reels seizing as they apparently can stick after just a couple of days. If they're not too bad then sometimes they free themselves after a few attempts, which might explain your symptoms…
Either way, carefully remove the cassette loading mechanism and check them out. We haven't tried ordering replacement brakes in recent times, but they used to be quite cheap.
Good luck,
Mark
The other thing you could do is strip it out for parts salvage.
As someone else said it has some nice parts inside that you could sell, make a profit on your purchase price and still have the case for the gainclone.
Parts include - a Noble pot, lots of Nichicon Muse caps, Elna caps, TDA1541A DAC - these alone are worth more than you paid for it.
John
As someone else said it has some nice parts inside that you could sell, make a profit on your purchase price and still have the case for the gainclone.
Parts include - a Noble pot, lots of Nichicon Muse caps, Elna caps, TDA1541A DAC - these alone are worth more than you paid for it.
John