In 1982 Wharfedale launched the Diamond. Hugely successful and highly regarded (for it's price) It had a first order crossover at 5k.
Some dangerous ground you fullrange lads are straddling here!........heresy!!!
But in all seriousness, environment is EVERYTHING when considering the potential for an alignment whether it near or midfield, small space or large as power response is IMO the ultimate judge of character along with group delay. We recording and mix engineers often look at a system with an entirely different set of criteria which most often settles on midrange clarity where primary instruments including voice establish the overall timbre and melody...........we’ll often leave the room to listen to it through an open door for full and final translation.....
That being said, fullrange drivers offer just that, but suffer from power compression at higher voltage in our purpose and are only suitable in the nearfield.....a popular iteration would be mixcube of which there are several varieties and custom versions.
But ATC have managed to address the whole enchilada with their very special albeit unique large format midrange dome.........NOTHING outperforms this driver from 400hz to 4khz.....i would encourage you folks to compare and explore similiarities in your alignments and choices with these wide band alternatives and remember to consider power response. The ATC dome bears no resemblance to the culture in this sub forum, but as transducer technology has improved over the past 20 years, there’s more options today as X has implemented in his 10F fast design..........which is interesting in it’s capability as well as it’s constraints........world class ATC chooses a much lower cross to a woofer, and yet the 10F has argueably better low end extension than even this dome, it’s use was constrained?......could the 10f have gone to 250hz crossed to a large format woofer with deep bass extension and higher power handling?.......i think so.....quite easily actually.....which begs the question......what is the goal with these wide range type alignments?.....where do the real world strengths lie?......and their weakness? I often see newer system alignments here from X and similiar often wondering what weakness or fault from a previous attempt ushered in a new, and yet fundamentally different effort?
ATC midrange fellas.......i highly suggest if you haven’t already experience one......it answers A LOT of questions!!!
But in all seriousness, environment is EVERYTHING when considering the potential for an alignment whether it near or midfield, small space or large as power response is IMO the ultimate judge of character along with group delay. We recording and mix engineers often look at a system with an entirely different set of criteria which most often settles on midrange clarity where primary instruments including voice establish the overall timbre and melody...........we’ll often leave the room to listen to it through an open door for full and final translation.....
That being said, fullrange drivers offer just that, but suffer from power compression at higher voltage in our purpose and are only suitable in the nearfield.....a popular iteration would be mixcube of which there are several varieties and custom versions.
But ATC have managed to address the whole enchilada with their very special albeit unique large format midrange dome.........NOTHING outperforms this driver from 400hz to 4khz.....i would encourage you folks to compare and explore similiarities in your alignments and choices with these wide band alternatives and remember to consider power response. The ATC dome bears no resemblance to the culture in this sub forum, but as transducer technology has improved over the past 20 years, there’s more options today as X has implemented in his 10F fast design..........which is interesting in it’s capability as well as it’s constraints........world class ATC chooses a much lower cross to a woofer, and yet the 10F has argueably better low end extension than even this dome, it’s use was constrained?......could the 10f have gone to 250hz crossed to a large format woofer with deep bass extension and higher power handling?.......i think so.....quite easily actually.....which begs the question......what is the goal with these wide range type alignments?.....where do the real world strengths lie?......and their weakness? I often see newer system alignments here from X and similiar often wondering what weakness or fault from a previous attempt ushered in a new, and yet fundamentally different effort?
ATC midrange fellas.......i highly suggest if you haven’t already experience one......it answers A LOT of questions!!!
Does Volt VM752 count? I have been designing the ultimate 3-way on commission for a friend and it’s certainly a crazy special driver. The magnet is the size and weight of a 12 in pro audio driver.
Currently planning on RAAL 70-20XR tweeter in a waveguide and dual 8in woofers (TBD) in a tapered PMC like TL. Passive XO - as close to transient (super)* as possible.
*time and phase aligned at selected listening point.
Currently planning on RAAL 70-20XR tweeter in a waveguide and dual 8in woofers (TBD) in a tapered PMC like TL. Passive XO - as close to transient (super)* as possible.
*time and phase aligned at selected listening point.
Attachments
The Volt driver has extremely comparable parameters and cost.......but if Vance’s measurements are accepted, the Volt does not have either the deep but very narrow notch at 4.8khz that the ATC does nor does it have the related energy storage shown in the waterfall........so on paper, it’s the better driver........but we both know the proof is in the listening. I certainly don’t have the resource to compare them side by side but when the stakes are this high......the crown of transducer performance, I’m sure someone will tackle this epic head to head.
I can’t fathom any other outcome for your design other than spectacular.......I’ve worked on several alignments using the ATC.......be prepared to be forever changed by the experience...........i’ll Be expecting afterwards to see a lot more of you over on the multiway forum! If your permitted by your client, please start a thread tracking your process.
I can’t fathom any other outcome for your design other than spectacular.......I’ve worked on several alignments using the ATC.......be prepared to be forever changed by the experience...........i’ll Be expecting afterwards to see a lot more of you over on the multiway forum! If your permitted by your client, please start a thread tracking your process.
Aligning time and phase on the listening axis is a reasonably common aim, but it doesn't just lead to transient perfect behaviour.
I’m just careful not to say “transient perfect” lest I want to hear another lecture from Byrtt. 🙂
I aim for the right triangle step response and flattish measured acoustic phase from a sweep.
I aim for the right triangle step response and flattish measured acoustic phase from a sweep.
Last edited:
I see.
Honestly, when I saw the term 'super' used this way, I thought you were meaning 'on all axes'. Would you want to risk that kind of a misunderstanding?
Aligning time and phase on the listening axis is a reasonably common aim, but it doesn't just lead to transient perfect behaviour.
Allen, you're talking about getting two drivers lined up in time at the crossover point.
X is talking about having a phase response that doesn't vary with frequency, which is an altogether more difficult goal.
Chris
X is talking about having a phase response that doesn't vary with frequency, which is an altogether more difficult goal.
Chris
Can you actually buy one of these for DIY? I heard it is practically unobtanium. And that you would have to offer your first born son to get hold of it....
Oon
I have plans for a WTW TL using dual PTT6.5 and a RAAL 70-20xr. Idea is to cross at the top of the woofer’s falloff at 3.5kHz. It’s basically running as a full range even without a low pass filter. This is super tweeter assisted wide band? Drivers have been ordered. Cabinet plans ready to go.
In essence yes. Notwithstanding the slightly different box alignments, it's more or less what Decware did in their old MG944, and, indeed the very first implementation of the Ariel (albeit in that case with the evergreen 9500 dome).
Zu also have taken this approach with their Omen Def MkII. So I hope and trust that this Purifi / Raal will, like the Zu, also feature (clears throat):
I was going to say 'you couldn't make this stuff up, could you?' -except they clearly did. 😉
- Deeper sense of ease in all tones, textures, phrasing and dynamic shades.
- Magnified cogency of intelligence and transient—better pop, shove, hit and attack.
- Sanctification of the inner detail—bass through treble, not simply treble hyped.
- Significantly elevated emotional teleportation powers.
- All while engineered to allow easy DIY upgrade and future update of many aspects of its design, most notably the tweeter. Oh, and by blessed you know we mean, engineered with mad science with clear targets nailed to the door of sonic bliss.
I was going to say 'you couldn't make this stuff up, could you?' -except they clearly did. 😉
Are those coaxial tweeter on the mid bass? Plus another tweeter in MTM?
Or maybe just dual whizzer-cone full range drivers with a phase plug and a tweeter that looks like a phase plug?
Or maybe just dual whizzer-cone full range drivers with a phase plug and a tweeter that looks like a phase plug?
They're a custom 10in wideband built for them / to their desired spec. by Eminence. As I recall, Zu do some of the assembly, apply some coatings etc. themselves though. Eminence are quite popular for this sort of thing; they built the old Hammer 12in wideband for John Wyckoff for e.g., which I suspect may have inspired the first Druid.
So I gather; I was just noting the source.
The Druid wasn't much cop either IMO in its early incarnations, and the less said about the Essence the better. 😉 I haven't heard the Druid MkV or VI though, but they look like they've improved. And the old Decware wasn't bad for what it was either.
The Druid wasn't much cop either IMO in its early incarnations, and the less said about the Essence the better. 😉 I haven't heard the Druid MkV or VI though, but they look like they've improved. And the old Decware wasn't bad for what it was either.