I will reply the last time about the capacitor story.
A capacitor has a resistance and inductance to. A speaker has a complex transfer scheme off resistors and capacitors and in a speaker design filter ads also extra capacitors and resistors.
A amplifier shout be stable but it will interact with the impedance and inductance of the driver.
When you oversee that all there are in many places in the design that will be resonant points.
In your driver in your amp in your passive filter in wiring. Thats why things sound different with almost the same spec.
A capacitor has a resistance and inductance to. A speaker has a complex transfer scheme off resistors and capacitors and in a speaker design filter ads also extra capacitors and resistors.
A amplifier shout be stable but it will interact with the impedance and inductance of the driver.
When you oversee that all there are in many places in the design that will be resonant points.
In your driver in your amp in your passive filter in wiring. Thats why things sound different with almost the same spec.
I am aware of the non-100% capacitance of a capacitor, that's why I also believe and understand different caps of the same spec can make a subtile different in the sound.
All I'm saying is that we won't spend a lot of hours and €'s to try out multiple types of same spec'd components to find out which "cocktail" might be a very slight improvement over the initial network of cheap components, but rather try to achieve the sound we want by experimenting with the values of the components and/or adding something to the network.
For the price of 1 single "high-end" silver-foil capacitor (easily €20 to €50+ depending on the size), we can buy quite a few cheap MKT caps (about €1) of different sizes to experiment with and for the difference in price between a pair of crossovernetworks containing only the most "high-end" components or even only at the places where it matters the most, and a pair of crossovernetworks containing cheap components, we could easily buy a nice 30-band equalizer that lets us easily tune the sound anytime we want to with very little effort.
Don't misunderstand me, I do have respect for people that spend weeks of time and are willing to pay a serious amount of money to build passive crossovernetworks that make the speakers show nothing less than their full potential without having to use extra processing...
But this concept was started out of the idea of building a set of very nice speakers we can listen to for years with drivers that are collecting dust at the moment and a low budget. It's all about learning as much as possible and having fun doing it, while spending as little as possible.
PS.: Do you know the Dutch "zelfbouwaudio" forum? I don't think I've seen you there yet?
Isabelle
All I'm saying is that we won't spend a lot of hours and €'s to try out multiple types of same spec'd components to find out which "cocktail" might be a very slight improvement over the initial network of cheap components, but rather try to achieve the sound we want by experimenting with the values of the components and/or adding something to the network.
For the price of 1 single "high-end" silver-foil capacitor (easily €20 to €50+ depending on the size), we can buy quite a few cheap MKT caps (about €1) of different sizes to experiment with and for the difference in price between a pair of crossovernetworks containing only the most "high-end" components or even only at the places where it matters the most, and a pair of crossovernetworks containing cheap components, we could easily buy a nice 30-band equalizer that lets us easily tune the sound anytime we want to with very little effort.
Don't misunderstand me, I do have respect for people that spend weeks of time and are willing to pay a serious amount of money to build passive crossovernetworks that make the speakers show nothing less than their full potential without having to use extra processing...
But this concept was started out of the idea of building a set of very nice speakers we can listen to for years with drivers that are collecting dust at the moment and a low budget. It's all about learning as much as possible and having fun doing it, while spending as little as possible.
PS.: Do you know the Dutch "zelfbouwaudio" forum? I don't think I've seen you there yet?
Isabelle
Time to bring this thread back alive:
For a few different reasons, we decided not to build this speakers as they were originally designed a while ago, but decided to go with something that's narrow at the top and without the 8,5" woofers.
We've also put the passive radiators for sale, since we don't have enough room to give the speakers enough space on the sides, so the subwoofers will get a sealed enclosure.
To keep the efficiency of the system as high as possible, it's probably a better idea to build a 3,5-way MTMW-setup, rather than a 3-ways TMW setup with baffle-step-correction.
This gives us the following design to start with:
For a few different reasons, we decided not to build this speakers as they were originally designed a while ago, but decided to go with something that's narrow at the top and without the 8,5" woofers.
We've also put the passive radiators for sale, since we don't have enough room to give the speakers enough space on the sides, so the subwoofers will get a sealed enclosure.
To keep the efficiency of the system as high as possible, it's probably a better idea to build a 3,5-way MTMW-setup, rather than a 3-ways TMW setup with baffle-step-correction.
This gives us the following design to start with:
Attachments
Off course, on planet Earth, we have something called gravity, so we need something to keep the top-cabinets where they need to be.
Apart from that, it's always interesting to have a dedicated place for the passive crossover network.
I made 2 base-designs:
Apart from that, it's always interesting to have a dedicated place for the passive crossover network.
I made 2 base-designs:
Attachments
We looked at both designs and decided to change the second design a little:
- crossover-enclosure mounted a little higher
- crossover-enclosure made black to have some contrast
I think this looks a lot better, so this will probably be the design we'll develop further.
greetings from Belgium,
Isabelle & Xenia
- crossover-enclosure mounted a little higher
- crossover-enclosure made black to have some contrast
I think this looks a lot better, so this will probably be the design we'll develop further.
greetings from Belgium,
Isabelle & Xenia
Attachments
The problem is we have limited space: Side-firing would most likely give acoustical problems on 1 side and would even be impossible on the other side.
This is also why we decided not to go with the passive radiators in the sides, but use sealed enclosures.
Isabelle
This is also why we decided not to go with the passive radiators in the sides, but use sealed enclosures.
Isabelle
I think it is a very good lay-out, it is not a detailed drawing. And it would be good to have angled sides to the front of the D'Appolito. So the baffle reflections do not interfere with the direct radiated sound of the driver.Did some more changes:
(You have to picture the middle tubes being in the back of the speakers!)
Sorry non-dutch speaking thread followers, but I want to make sure I understand Helmuth correctly...
I'm afraid we can't put round or angled edges to the baffle of the top-cabinet. I think it would look a bit weird (maybe even ugly) in combination with what we've planned to do with the rest of the cabinet.
Maybe we can round/angle the edges a very very little bit (a radius of 2mm or so), but I don't think that will have a lot of influence on the sound and I think sharp 90° edges will look the best in our design......
Isabelle
something in Dutch said:
I'm afraid we can't put round or angled edges to the baffle of the top-cabinet. I think it would look a bit weird (maybe even ugly) in combination with what we've planned to do with the rest of the cabinet.
Maybe we can round/angle the edges a very very little bit (a radius of 2mm or so), but I don't think that will have a lot of influence on the sound and I think sharp 90° edges will look the best in our design......
Isabelle
Isabelle when you cut the wood panels it is easy to cut a 45 degree angle. And then place the baffle panel on the box.
I discovered when building my own projects that the influence of the baffle reflections are as bad as phase faults in the cross over. I knew it played a roll but didn't thought I could hear it that well.
Thats why advise to do it , little effort to do so a other solution is to keep the baffle with a small with.
Cool the curved D'appolito. You are in control about the design the advantage of DIY. 🙂
Well, I've made a half-assed 3D picture of how the speakers would look like:
I don't think this design would look right with angled baffle-edges....
1. MTMs have a very different dispersion pattern than MT or MMTs. I find that while the sweet spot is sweeter it is also narrower with MTMs.
2. Why not have 2 woofers WW - MTM. This will mean that each woofer has half the excursion for a given SPL hence lower distortion. You have enough space between the woofer cabinet and MTM to fit another woofer and stil leave room for the Xover.
In 1995-6 I built a similar system. The woofer cabinet was 2 Audio Concepts DV12s in a box that was 30" high and the MTM and XO sat on top of that box. The MTM were 18W8546 and a 9900.
1.: Is this also true if the setup is:
- top mid: 150-1500Hz
- tweeter: 5kHz and up
- lower mid: 150Hz-5kHz
?
2.: Dual 12" woofers are not an option and completely unnecessary:
- I have only 2 of those Peerless XXLS 12" woofers laying on the shelf and we're not planning to spend the extra money for another pair
- The design would lose all elegance, even I think this would be unacceptable, so I don't even have to ask Xenia (I'm sure she'd agree on this)
- Even with 150W applied and no subsonic filtering, the excursion of the woofers will still be far below their x-max.
I refined the 3D picture a bit more:
Isabelle
- top mid: 150-1500Hz
- tweeter: 5kHz and up
- lower mid: 150Hz-5kHz
?
2.: Dual 12" woofers are not an option and completely unnecessary:
- I have only 2 of those Peerless XXLS 12" woofers laying on the shelf and we're not planning to spend the extra money for another pair
- The design would lose all elegance, even I think this would be unacceptable, so I don't even have to ask Xenia (I'm sure she'd agree on this)
- Even with 150W applied and no subsonic filtering, the excursion of the woofers will still be far below their x-max.
I refined the 3D picture a bit more:
Isabelle
Attachments
Oh I wont know about the staggered crossover and how it affects dispersion I have never tried it. I assume the top mid is to compensate for baffle step.
As fo the dual woofers, forget I asked. I had quite forgotten that you already had the woofers.
The top-mid is indeed to compensate for baffle step.
I think it's better to add some output below the baffle-step-frequency, than to use a correction network to weaken the output above it (the mids are only 87dB/2.83V/m to start with!).
I'm pretty sure, if we had to buy everything specially for this project, rather than use what we've got, we'd probably use dual 8-10" woofers, rather than single 12" subwoofers with woofer-capabilities.
I don't regret having those 12" (sub)woofers laying around, if we didn't have them, we probably wouldn't have come up with a rather special design to make the speakers look narrower than they are, and ended up with rather simple, un-special pillars...
Isabelle
I think it's better to add some output below the baffle-step-frequency, than to use a correction network to weaken the output above it (the mids are only 87dB/2.83V/m to start with!).
I'm pretty sure, if we had to buy everything specially for this project, rather than use what we've got, we'd probably use dual 8-10" woofers, rather than single 12" subwoofers with woofer-capabilities.
I don't regret having those 12" (sub)woofers laying around, if we didn't have them, we probably wouldn't have come up with a rather special design to make the speakers look narrower than they are, and ended up with rather simple, un-special pillars...
Isabelle
Unfortunately, Xenia's (my gf) physical health is going down lately. Because of this, we have to keep in mind that she will probably end up in a wheel chair.
Since we live quite small, it is a challenge to create enough room to keep the entire house accessible by wheelchair, while keeping ànd further improving the comfort of the house.
This means we'll have to start with a compromise-interior-design, based on the stuff (mostly furniture) we already have. Off course, a pair of -yet to be made- speakers with a 13,5" by 15" base is something that doesn't fit in such a design... 🙁
But wait! I don't declare this project dead before it is actually born!
Xenia really wants to do the household herself, even when I'll go to work full-time soon! There is no way I will let her listen to crappy satellite speakers tied to the ceiling and let her live 24/7 in a compromised interior!
After we've found how to create the best possible interior with the stuff we already have, it'll be time to find out what can be done to create an even better environment with more space for... well, a couple of nice DIY-speakers for example 😉
So be it if that means giving some perfectly fine furniture to charity and spending big money on new stuff!
To be continued...
Since we live quite small, it is a challenge to create enough room to keep the entire house accessible by wheelchair, while keeping ànd further improving the comfort of the house.
This means we'll have to start with a compromise-interior-design, based on the stuff (mostly furniture) we already have. Off course, a pair of -yet to be made- speakers with a 13,5" by 15" base is something that doesn't fit in such a design... 🙁
But wait! I don't declare this project dead before it is actually born!
Xenia really wants to do the household herself, even when I'll go to work full-time soon! There is no way I will let her listen to crappy satellite speakers tied to the ceiling and let her live 24/7 in a compromised interior!
After we've found how to create the best possible interior with the stuff we already have, it'll be time to find out what can be done to create an even better environment with more space for... well, a couple of nice DIY-speakers for example 😉
So be it if that means giving some perfectly fine furniture to charity and spending big money on new stuff!
To be continued...
Sounds bad that Xenia health I wish here strength.
I would advise try the woofer open-baflle 80cm from your ceiling, or to the ceiling and about 80-100cm from the rearwall. And make the satellite of the the mid-high also mounted high.
You have more than enough power to use that woofer openbaffle. I made one it is very easy and really surprisingly deep bass. The ceiling will help increase efficiency 40Hz down.
So try a OB before you say it is a bad idea it sounds nice and is small, you can consider a plexiglass OB.
I would advise try the woofer open-baflle 80cm from your ceiling, or to the ceiling and about 80-100cm from the rearwall. And make the satellite of the the mid-high also mounted high.
You have more than enough power to use that woofer openbaffle. I made one it is very easy and really surprisingly deep bass. The ceiling will help increase efficiency 40Hz down.
So try a OB before you say it is a bad idea it sounds nice and is small, you can consider a plexiglass OB.
You don't have to convince me about the qualities of a no-box design, but it's not really an option in our house:
- the ceiling is not extremely low, but lower than average and the television will be placed rather high, so anything mounted to the ceiling will be in sight. A pair of 12" subwoofers in sight, in a small living room (where anything normal-sized already looks quite big) is not an option.
- if open-baffle satellite-speakers on the ceiling would be an option, it still wouldn't work properly because there is a big fat beam sticking 8" out of the ceiling, right behind the spots where ceiling speakers would have to be mounted.
I am actually thinking about building OB-speakers in the future, but not for this living room...
For now, we can keep using our bookshelf B&W DM2a speakers, so we don't lose any floor-space. Later, we can replace the closet where the TV and B&W's are on by a closet that is just wide enough for the TV, so we can put large floorstanding speakers on both sides of it without losing floor-space.
Isabelle
- the ceiling is not extremely low, but lower than average and the television will be placed rather high, so anything mounted to the ceiling will be in sight. A pair of 12" subwoofers in sight, in a small living room (where anything normal-sized already looks quite big) is not an option.
- if open-baffle satellite-speakers on the ceiling would be an option, it still wouldn't work properly because there is a big fat beam sticking 8" out of the ceiling, right behind the spots where ceiling speakers would have to be mounted.
I am actually thinking about building OB-speakers in the future, but not for this living room...
For now, we can keep using our bookshelf B&W DM2a speakers, so we don't lose any floor-space. Later, we can replace the closet where the TV and B&W's are on by a closet that is just wide enough for the TV, so we can put large floorstanding speakers on both sides of it without losing floor-space.
Isabelle
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