Hi everybody 🙂
I´m thinking of making a little system for renting out to parties.
Looking for any tips and trick to make the system fool proof, so that they have a good experience and I don´t end up with dead drivers and amps.
My thinking is.
I want to be able to connect 4 subs and 4 tops
I want it all to be passive. So that i can lock up all connections, x-over and more. Using a USB dac as the only input to avoid any ground loops.
Connecting the speakers with a 4 pole colour coded SpeakON connectors. Even though only 2 of the 4 poles are used. But by using different combinations of the 4 poles, try and make it so they cannot complete a circuit between different amplifier outputs(saving the amps from absent minded/drunk people)
Using an active X-over for the subs cutting at something like 40hz to prevent overdriving the sub and give it a boost from 60hz to 100hz to give the illusion of deep base
Anything I´ve missed? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Casper
I´m thinking of making a little system for renting out to parties.
Looking for any tips and trick to make the system fool proof, so that they have a good experience and I don´t end up with dead drivers and amps.
My thinking is.
I want to be able to connect 4 subs and 4 tops
I want it all to be passive. So that i can lock up all connections, x-over and more. Using a USB dac as the only input to avoid any ground loops.
Connecting the speakers with a 4 pole colour coded SpeakON connectors. Even though only 2 of the 4 poles are used. But by using different combinations of the 4 poles, try and make it so they cannot complete a circuit between different amplifier outputs(saving the amps from absent minded/drunk people)
Using an active X-over for the subs cutting at something like 40hz to prevent overdriving the sub and give it a boost from 60hz to 100hz to give the illusion of deep base
Anything I´ve missed? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Casper
I would seriously think about buying up something like a few Yamaha DXR cabinets (other active speakers are available) and calling it good. They sound decent, go loud, and have a lot of limiting built-in that makes them difficult to kill. Usually thermal, peak, and excursion.
Difficult to beat with DIY.
Chris
Difficult to beat with DIY.
Chris
+1 on using active speakers.. it's the closest you will get to a bullet proof system. The only way to make a passive system bullet proof is to use grossly over sized speakers and grossly under power them, but that leaves a lot of potential on the table and makes moving the gear more work than it needs to be.
Last edited:
you can spend a lot of time,effort and money trying to foolproof your gear with protective covers, limiters, unique wiring schemes and the like (i know, been there many times over the years)
it's amazing and mind boggling what the capability of drunken idiots to do damage can get to...
for me the solution that gave the best results was a clear rental contract and a hefty damage deposit that isn't refunded until the gear is returned and tested!(nothing makes people respect your stuff more than the possibility of losing some of their hard earned money)
but if you find something that works better please share....
it's amazing and mind boggling what the capability of drunken idiots to do damage can get to...
for me the solution that gave the best results was a clear rental contract and a hefty damage deposit that isn't refunded until the gear is returned and tested!(nothing makes people respect your stuff more than the possibility of losing some of their hard earned money)
but if you find something that works better please share....
I have run a Hire Dept/Repairs Dept in the past.
It is rare for drivers or amps to fail when operated by a sound engineer.
For DJs, expect stuff to get broken....almost without exception I have found DJs to be both cloth eared and to have essentially zero technical understanding.
If you are hiring out DJ systems they must be 'idiot proof' and modern active speakers with their inbuilt protections are admirably 'fit for purpose'.
Modern plastic powered 15" two way cabinets (plus optional subs) with minor eq adjustment typically sound way better than old school 'passive' systems and are perfectly suitable for most domestic DJ/party users, and as sound reinforcement for smaller live music performances.
Ease of setup, speed of setup, ease of use makes a players/mixer/active speakers system a no brainer.
A friend recently scammed a pawn shop and for AUD $1000 scored a 14ch mixer (with inbuilt eq/USB player), powered 15" two ways and cables...bargains are to be had.
All hires MUST be checked upon return or you WILL get burned.
Knowing that abuse/damage of your hire stock will incur serious repairs charges/loss of deposit ensures responsible operation.
If the client can't stump up for significant deposit and disclosure of ID/address/referees etc you don't want them as a client.
Yes, please do so. 🙂.
Powered speakers have some other advantages. First, with a mixer of choice, you can send out 1 or 2 or 3 pairs of speakers, and not have to worry about impedance. Each speaker powers itself. You don't have to stock multiple whole systems. Mixer can be tiny or huge.
Powered speakers are usually put up on stand poles. SOme people put wooden box speakers on poles too, but a lot set them on the stage corners. Blasting into the people, those setting there won;t get good coverage, so the DJ keeps turning it all up. Up on a pole, the typical molded powered speaker blasts over the heads of the crowd so everyone can hear. result, less incentive to crank it to the sky.
Powered speakers are harder to connect "wrong". With 1/4" cords, I'd see someone plugged the amp speaker output into some line output jack and burn up a circuit. If you connect a mixer out to a mixer in, about all that happens is it goes WOOOO from the hard wired feedback. On powered speakers, the customer never has access to the power amap output wiring.
Powered speakers are usually put up on stand poles. SOme people put wooden box speakers on poles too, but a lot set them on the stage corners. Blasting into the people, those setting there won;t get good coverage, so the DJ keeps turning it all up. Up on a pole, the typical molded powered speaker blasts over the heads of the crowd so everyone can hear. result, less incentive to crank it to the sky.
Powered speakers are harder to connect "wrong". With 1/4" cords, I'd see someone plugged the amp speaker output into some line output jack and burn up a circuit. If you connect a mixer out to a mixer in, about all that happens is it goes WOOOO from the hard wired feedback. On powered speakers, the customer never has access to the power amap output wiring.
so what would stop a "drunken idiot" from creating distortion at the mixer stage and send it along to powered speakers?
even with good limiting and protection built in you can hurt the best of the best!
i agree that they're a better option but thus far (at least for me) there's nothing available or possible that can counter the resourcefulness of a "drunken idiot" to do damage....
even my approach of "damage deposit" is not a guarantee (i guess i should take solace in the fact that service and repair work is the other portion of my income!)
even with good limiting and protection built in you can hurt the best of the best!
i agree that they're a better option but thus far (at least for me) there's nothing available or possible that can counter the resourcefulness of a "drunken idiot" to do damage....
even my approach of "damage deposit" is not a guarantee (i guess i should take solace in the fact that service and repair work is the other portion of my income!)
Yes, they can always max the mixer and distort things, but that at most would nip a tweeter. But I agree, if there is a way for the public to screw something up, they will find it.
A store I once worked at rented out systems. One customer kept coming in and renting a PA for the weekend, and every Monday they returned it claiming it didn't work right and they want their money back. Of course we set up the system and it works flawlessly, but they swore it "didn't work." Eventually we stopped renting to them. But unless you set up a system with the customer before it goes out, they can always make that claim.
And when it comes back, they want their deposit, meaning you have to set the system up and check it out right on the spot, to see that it still works and that they didn't mic drop all your microphones into trash.
There is no guarantee.
A store I once worked at rented out systems. One customer kept coming in and renting a PA for the weekend, and every Monday they returned it claiming it didn't work right and they want their money back. Of course we set up the system and it works flawlessly, but they swore it "didn't work." Eventually we stopped renting to them. But unless you set up a system with the customer before it goes out, they can always make that claim.
And when it comes back, they want their deposit, meaning you have to set the system up and check it out right on the spot, to see that it still works and that they didn't mic drop all your microphones into trash.
There is no guarantee.
Long & McQuade is, by far, the largest company in Canada that rents PA equipment to idiots. Their parent company also owns Yorkville sound. The Yorkville NX55P was designed basically for the Long & McQuade's rental market. It's a powered 12" with conservative limiting, good low frequency extention, in a cabinet that takes a beating. They are also easy to service, and repair parts are readily available and surprisingly inexpensive.
I would strongly recommend this speaker for your customer base. I own six.
They also have subs for that same market. Again, designed with protection-from-idiots in mind. I'm thinking the LS720P is probably the right choice.
I would strongly recommend this speaker for your customer base. I own six.
They also have subs for that same market. Again, designed with protection-from-idiots in mind. I'm thinking the LS720P is probably the right choice.
Last edited:
Distortion doesn't kill speakers overpowering does. Now before somebody jumps on me let me elaborate a little, speakers don't care what a signal looks like they will do their best to reproduce it and be no worse for wear unless the signal causes over excursion or overheating of the voice coil. The big gotcha with generating distortion in an audio system by overdriving a mixer or amplifier is that it produces a lot more high frequency content than most music typically has and this often leads to tweeter failure with a passive system because the amp in use is always more than big enough to overpower the tweeter.
But active speakers of any quality will have a separate amp and processing that is sized and tuned just right for each driver so it is much less likely that a tweeter will ever get overpowered. I say much less likely because nothing is ever certain so you can't say all powered speakers are bullet proof either, cheap powered speakers really are only marginally better in this way that passive speakers. But just going by my own personal experience in the last few years with active speakers, it's simply amazing how much abuse they will take without missing a beat.. DJs running them into solid limiting for hours for example and the speaker suffer no ill effects other than getting plenty hot in some cases.
Last edited:
are you for real?
quoting me out of context and then posting something that's both contradictory and factually incorrect all the while trying to appear more knowledgeable... are you generally a jackass or is it just in this instance?
quoting me out of context and then posting something that's both contradictory and factually incorrect all the while trying to appear more knowledgeable... are you generally a jackass or is it just in this instance?
Cool off, will you?
Conansky´s post is legitimate and technically accurate, don´t feel hurt in your feelings and counterattack a personal attack which was never there.
And yes, a properly limited and crossed over system will stay safe; distorted signal is just "some kind of Music" to the system.
The system doesn´t know or care whether distortion is overdriven Frank Sinatra or just the last Pantera record or a Tech feeding it squarewaves for testing purposes, only that it´s "X" volts at "Y" frequency.
If X is limited to a preset safe level and frequency is within the accepted passband, no harm is done.
And a properly designed active speaker system does exactly that.
this makes the point i was trying to illustrate.input stages and limiters can be overdriven!!
nothing to do with my feelings.
And then how does the power amp know the difference between distortion like that created in the preamp, and similar distortion in the recorded material?
distorted source material is not the issue.
if recognition that we are talking about pushing things beyond "preset safe" limits isn't going to be acknowledged then i don't know what to say.
if recognition that we are talking about pushing things beyond "preset safe" limits isn't going to be acknowledged then i don't know what to say.
Preamp distortion has more high frequency content.
My neighbor in the backline business does get some musicians who report gear didn't work right, usually because they didn't really know how to operate it. (Sometimes it is subrented gear from small shops.) However DJ gear often comes back missing knobs and styli. But the gear goes out with powered loudspeakers and none have been blow out so far.
I've worked in this world for several decades. Yes, powered speakers are the way to go for rental rigs. Your customers will still blow them up, but not as often as other stuff. Plus they are super easy to connect and use. Yamaha, QSC and JBL, along with others have decent powered speakers for this market.
12" woofers are a good all around choice, but I prefer 8 or 10s with a sub. Not as easy to use, tho.
When you rent, have a line with signal and with power set up right in your loading dock. You test every single speaker that goes out and comes in - right in front of the customer. That way there is NO question about the gear working when it left the shop, and working (or not) when it comes back. Believe me, this is a huge deal. There is no question about the condition of the gear.
12" woofers are a good all around choice, but I prefer 8 or 10s with a sub. Not as easy to use, tho.
When you rent, have a line with signal and with power set up right in your loading dock. You test every single speaker that goes out and comes in - right in front of the customer. That way there is NO question about the gear working when it left the shop, and working (or not) when it comes back. Believe me, this is a huge deal. There is no question about the condition of the gear.
A line with an adjustable signal, and show them the drivers cutting out when the limits are exceeded at the same time as well...
After owning a rental house, I wouldn't be surprised to see anything.
After owning a rental house, I wouldn't be surprised to see anything.
turk182 - if your point is that it's possible to create bad sound with powered speakers, then you're absolutely correct.
If your point is that (good) powered speakers are easily damaged by distorted signals, then you are largely incorrect. Distortion in loudspeakers using passive crossovers is a much, much, much more significant issue. Good powered speakers are universally bi-amped, with limiters that know how much power the compression driver can handle safely. Even a bi-amped passive setup isn't this safe, unless you used cabinets which have single-cable inputs on something like a Canon EP-6 or 4/8-pole Speakon.
Wes
If your point is that (good) powered speakers are easily damaged by distorted signals, then you are largely incorrect. Distortion in loudspeakers using passive crossovers is a much, much, much more significant issue. Good powered speakers are universally bi-amped, with limiters that know how much power the compression driver can handle safely. Even a bi-amped passive setup isn't this safe, unless you used cabinets which have single-cable inputs on something like a Canon EP-6 or 4/8-pole Speakon.
Wes
Ain't that the truth.
(note: most of your customers will be reasonable and responsible. It's the ones who aren't that you remember)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.