Hello All,
I have always heard about fostex full ranges here. I'm a fan of high efficiency full range speakers. I own a pair of philips AD3800M.
I was planning to move to lowther or fostex. I have heard lowther DX3 (in pipe voigt cabinets) and enjoyed a lot.
I would like your help to assist me in choosing a fostex drivers according to the following specifications:
- I listen jazz fusion, jazz and some rock (like steely dan) in low/medium volume.
- I use 18-watt tube amplifiers and maybe move to 5-Watt single-ended
- The driver must have high efficiency
- I use a horn tweeter and I'm able to tune it accordingly, there is no problem regarding that.
- My room is small (13m2 / 140 ft2), dedicated and with very effective acoustic treatment.
- Budget up to around US$ 800,00 for both drivers.
The most important: I use a transmission-line subwoofer for the basses. I have a specific crossover made for my needs by a local artisan and I can tune it if needed to match the new driver.
So, low frequency is not that important (but medium-lows are!) and I know that it would affect a lot the enclosure needed for the driver. Can it be sealed? What is recommended volume and driver? If I go sealed can I lost some medium-lows ?
I would appreciate any help.
thank you!
Highef
I have always heard about fostex full ranges here. I'm a fan of high efficiency full range speakers. I own a pair of philips AD3800M.
I was planning to move to lowther or fostex. I have heard lowther DX3 (in pipe voigt cabinets) and enjoyed a lot.
I would like your help to assist me in choosing a fostex drivers according to the following specifications:
- I listen jazz fusion, jazz and some rock (like steely dan) in low/medium volume.
- I use 18-watt tube amplifiers and maybe move to 5-Watt single-ended
- The driver must have high efficiency
- I use a horn tweeter and I'm able to tune it accordingly, there is no problem regarding that.
- My room is small (13m2 / 140 ft2), dedicated and with very effective acoustic treatment.
- Budget up to around US$ 800,00 for both drivers.
The most important: I use a transmission-line subwoofer for the basses. I have a specific crossover made for my needs by a local artisan and I can tune it if needed to match the new driver.
So, low frequency is not that important (but medium-lows are!) and I know that it would affect a lot the enclosure needed for the driver. Can it be sealed? What is recommended volume and driver? If I go sealed can I lost some medium-lows ?
I would appreciate any help.
thank you!
Highef
Sigma 208ESs would get my vote. Since you're using a tweet, the beamyness you get with the larger driver would potentially be avoided somewhat.
As for the cabinet, I'd look into the Frugel-Horn designs: http://www.frugel-horn.com. I know you said you don't want a ton of low frequencies, but having the potential for some stout midbass/subbass might make integrating your TL easier if it doesn't have to be crossed over as high.
As for the cabinet, I'd look into the Frugel-Horn designs: http://www.frugel-horn.com. I know you said you don't want a ton of low frequencies, but having the potential for some stout midbass/subbass might make integrating your TL easier if it doesn't have to be crossed over as high.
140 sq ft is a fairly small room - indeed, fully 1/3 smaller than a space in which I find a pair of FE127E and 8 watts of 300B SET is quite adequate for listening tastes and habits similar to those described.
I'd suggest that you consider smaller than the 8" - both for the size of required enclosure and dispersion characteristics.
- i.e. the FE168 E Sigma in Hiro
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Hiro.gif
(to be honest, you might not have enough room to fully integrate the output from all three sources any of the full sized dual mouth designs)
FE167E in MLTL or
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/images/Fonken167-walnut.jpg
I know for sure this one works in rooms as small as 200 sq ft or several times larger
or
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Half-Chili-3D.gif
I haven't heard a pair of these, but the smaller sibling of this format for FE127E (i.e. Brynn) is very nice.
I'd suggest that you consider smaller than the 8" - both for the size of required enclosure and dispersion characteristics.
- i.e. the FE168 E Sigma in Hiro
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Hiro.gif
(to be honest, you might not have enough room to fully integrate the output from all three sources any of the full sized dual mouth designs)
FE167E in MLTL or
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/images/Fonken167-walnut.jpg
I know for sure this one works in rooms as small as 200 sq ft or several times larger
or
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/Half-Chili-3D.gif
I haven't heard a pair of these, but the smaller sibling of this format for FE127E (i.e. Brynn) is very nice.
Thank you for the answers.
What do you think about Fonken + FE127E? It is easy to build and the driver is cheap.
thanks
Highef
What do you think about Fonken + FE127E? It is easy to build and the driver is cheap.
thanks
Highef
Well, as the original and probably still most prolific builder of this particular design, I'm hardly unbiased.
Not to question or disparage your woodworking skills, but it's a bit more complicated a build than it might look - there's no voodoo in there, but just a lot of fiddly work.
Still near the top of the very short list of favorite speakers I've built
For my particular taste, the stock FE127E is more natural and less fatiguing than the FE126E, and with the EnABL treatment is truly transformed, well worth the cost - but you should search for testimonials from other listeners for validation of that point.
BTW, there is a larger version of this design for the FE167E - but frankly, for me, the larger driver lacks more than a touch of the "magic" of the 127's mid-range, which I think would be quite noticeable in your small room.
Key Chris,
thank you for the help.
My room is dedicated, physically small yes but acoustically large.
I haven't had time for researching about Fonken and 127E. Is there a place where I can find detailed schematics and testimonials about Fonken + 127E? What is EnABL?
thanks
Highef
thank you for the help.
My room is dedicated, physically small yes but acoustically large.
I haven't had time for researching about Fonken and 127E. Is there a place where I can find detailed schematics and testimonials about Fonken + 127E? What is EnABL?
thanks
Highef
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/fonken.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a can of worms, 😀
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/fostex.html
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/driver-reviews.html
As for reviews of the Fonkens proper, there are a few scattered around, including this one:
http://www.affordableaudio.org/Fonkens.pdf
(pre-EnABL)
and comments elsewhere on this forum by other builders.
Chris
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Chrisb,
you have lots of experience with Fostex drivers, I have a pair of FE167E and I found the sound reproduction is a "little" thin compared to convention drivers like Usher, etc. How it that so? do you find it as well? I don't EnABL my drivers. How do I alleviate this effect ie can add a little more "body" to the sound.
Cheers.
you have lots of experience with Fostex drivers, I have a pair of FE167E and I found the sound reproduction is a "little" thin compared to convention drivers like Usher, etc. How it that so? do you find it as well? I don't EnABL my drivers. How do I alleviate this effect ie can add a little more "body" to the sound.
Cheers.
I assure you, there are many folks on this forum, and elsewhere that have much more extensive experience with Fostex and other drivers than myself, but I do tend to wear my heart on my sleeve 😛
Few of us have had the opportunity to hear every brand and type of loudspeaker driver extant (or extinct 😉) , and to be honest, the only Usher driver that I can explicitly recall was a cheaper tweeter as part of a not very well integrated DIY 2-way, so I'd prefer to reserve judgment on the brand. Like many DIYer's, yourself probably included, I have heard, owned and built systems with a variety of "conventional" drivers ( and for that matter, some out of the mainstream)
If by "thin", you mean lacking a sense of body, weight or mass, that is certainly not the first descriptor that I'd use for the FE167E driver itself- in conjunction with what amplifier(s) and source material / format?
It's been my personal experience that the FE and Sigma series blossom with low power tubed amps (in my case 2A3 and 300B SET and EL84 class A P/P triode and triode connected SE). For example, the same driver and enclosure (FE167E in 23 liter floorstanding Fonken) with a class T amp of triple or more rated power definitely exhibits less body and dimensionality than the 2A3
Actually I don't have the patience to attempt EnABL myself either - but I can certainly blast together a modest speaker enclosure in about the same amount of elapsed time it takes Dave to complete the multi step process (and most of the time in either is waiting for glue or paint, etc. to dry)
I wouldn't count on the EnABL process to add "body" in the sense of "weight", as much as focus the spacial coherency, delineate (and separate) inner detail and texture
I find the FE167E the most honest and uncolored of the Fostex drivers I've heard. Did you use a BSC filter with this driver? If not it will sound thin. You Usher has a cross-over that incorporates a BSC filter, no?
Bob
Chris,
thank you for all the material. I have read some and it seems that I'm going to build a Fonken soon.
I'm just concerned about coloured sound. I've heard in my local audio group that fostex drivers are a bit coloured in mid-highs, but I'm not sure they were able to mount them in proper cabinets and proper driver (I also don't know what driver they were talking about).
I read some posts here "A new fonken pair is born" (or something like that) and it seem that the results are very linked to the internal damping material used.
thanks
Highef
thank you for all the material. I have read some and it seems that I'm going to build a Fonken soon.
I'm just concerned about coloured sound. I've heard in my local audio group that fostex drivers are a bit coloured in mid-highs, but I'm not sure they were able to mount them in proper cabinets and proper driver (I also don't know what driver they were talking about).
I read some posts here "A new fonken pair is born" (or something like that) and it seem that the results are very linked to the internal damping material used.
thanks
Highef
Bob's point well made - I always forget about this, as I don't incorporate them in my own builds. 😱
Re: "colourations" in the mid highs of Fostex (FE & FF series) drivers - both on paper and to the ear. Yes, they may well not have as linear response or waterfall specs as would be theoretically desirable, but there's so much more to dynamic and musical realism than these pretty graphs can indicate.
Simply put, and without the polemics, they are not to everyone's taste.
When used as I've only ever heard them (i.e. wide-band, with any associated bass or tweeter augmentation well outside the telephone band), they could well be considered more "vivid" than many commercial or DIY multi-way systems, which often have XO points in or adjacent to the most critical area of the mid-range. Done that myself a couple of times in the past few years, but ever since my first full-range I always seem to migrate back.
As to the Fonken/FE127 cabinets specifically, these easiest way to allow for access to adjust levels of wall damping during initial listening would be to make the back panel removable. Between the small driver cut-out for FE127 ( 104mm) and the vertical internal brace that couples top/bottom and front/back, access through the front is virtually impossible.
The acoustical resistance of the multiple narrow port slots is part of the design, so regardless of what type and amount of damping you might settle on, it's important to not occlude the internal openings, either on the side or back panels.
However, be reminded the Fostex drivers in question have notoriously long break-in periods (easily exceeding 100hrs playing time),which definitely affect the palpable frequency response and dynamic speed, so any fine-tuning of EQ/ BSC/enclosure damping need await that settling in.
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My Fostex experience is limited to a pair of FE166E's, so you can take this for what it's worth.
I'm in the camp of going with a larger driver in a sealed box. You're using a sub for the lows, so a cabinet that's made to extend the low end of the Fostex (Fonken, Frugel, etc.) is needless a complication. An FE167E or FE207E in a simple sealed box can play low enough to mate decently with a sub. I've done it surprisingly well with the FE166E's in tiny sealed boxes with an aggressive BSC, the xx7's should work even better with less BSC needed.
At the top end you say you're using a horn tweeter. What horn, what crossover frequency? Horns are directional within their effective ranges. In a small room, the directivity of a horn tweeter can be an advantage, less side wall reflection is good. A larger Fostex will have a narrower dispersion at higher frequencies, so depending in the crossover frequency it may better match the polar pattern of the horn. So that adds the benefit a more uniform polar pattern through the crossover. The smaller FE127 is likely to have a much wider dispersion than the horn at the crossover, so the polar pattern will not be as uniform, the reflected sound won't match the direct sound.
Since you don't need the more extended highs of the smaller drivers, I'd go with the FE207E were it my room. In my own system, I use an 8" Hemp Acoustics full range in a room the size of yours quite successfully (without a sub or a tweeter). But, be sure to read my first sentence again!
Bill
I'm in the camp of going with a larger driver in a sealed box. You're using a sub for the lows, so a cabinet that's made to extend the low end of the Fostex (Fonken, Frugel, etc.) is needless a complication. An FE167E or FE207E in a simple sealed box can play low enough to mate decently with a sub. I've done it surprisingly well with the FE166E's in tiny sealed boxes with an aggressive BSC, the xx7's should work even better with less BSC needed.
At the top end you say you're using a horn tweeter. What horn, what crossover frequency? Horns are directional within their effective ranges. In a small room, the directivity of a horn tweeter can be an advantage, less side wall reflection is good. A larger Fostex will have a narrower dispersion at higher frequencies, so depending in the crossover frequency it may better match the polar pattern of the horn. So that adds the benefit a more uniform polar pattern through the crossover. The smaller FE127 is likely to have a much wider dispersion than the horn at the crossover, so the polar pattern will not be as uniform, the reflected sound won't match the direct sound.
Since you don't need the more extended highs of the smaller drivers, I'd go with the FE207E were it my room. In my own system, I use an 8" Hemp Acoustics full range in a room the size of yours quite successfully (without a sub or a tweeter). But, be sure to read my first sentence again!
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I have been reading about the Fonken with FE127E, and my interest is mainly because of the low cost.
According to my readings, I'm even planning to don't use a tweeter anymore. The one I use today was matched by a professional in the area, not by me.
Guys, do you think with FE127E I can get rid of my horn tweeter? Is capable to reproduce highs like, let's say, lowther DX3? (this is the only full range I've listen without tweets so far).
About sub-woofer, First I was planning to build a sealed cabinet for the fullrange driver because of the fact that I use a sub for low end. Usually cut in 70-80 Hz. So the main speaker should start talking above 80Hz.
My only concern also is about the linearity above 80Hz of the speaker enclosure. Would I have more linearity above this range using fonken instead a sealed?
About the diameter of the full range driver. What is most recommended for a small sized room? Would a 8" be more suitable?
By the way, here are 2 pics of my room.
thanks
Highef
I have been reading about the Fonken with FE127E, and my interest is mainly because of the low cost.
According to my readings, I'm even planning to don't use a tweeter anymore. The one I use today was matched by a professional in the area, not by me.
Guys, do you think with FE127E I can get rid of my horn tweeter? Is capable to reproduce highs like, let's say, lowther DX3? (this is the only full range I've listen without tweets so far).
About sub-woofer, First I was planning to build a sealed cabinet for the fullrange driver because of the fact that I use a sub for low end. Usually cut in 70-80 Hz. So the main speaker should start talking above 80Hz.
My only concern also is about the linearity above 80Hz of the speaker enclosure. Would I have more linearity above this range using fonken instead a sealed?
About the diameter of the full range driver. What is most recommended for a small sized room? Would a 8" be more suitable?
By the way, here are 2 pics of my room.
thanks
Highef
Highef:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the FE127E could well be an ideal fit for the room shown in your pictures.
Will it reproduce highs like a Lowther DX3? Uh, no - but I have been building a variety of enclosures for, and listening to this particular Fostex driver for well over 5 years now, and have never felt the need for tweeters, or EQ/correction of any type. Indeed, in my own little listening room (under 9ft wide, and rather long), I'm quite happy with the quality of the bottom end as well, particularly in either the Fonken or Scott Lindgren's Brynn enclosure.
As I've probably described elsewhere, I also have 2 pairs of a larger version of the Fonken enclosure for FE167E - one each in the smaller room and a much larger family room setting ( i.e. 340sq ft). Listening distances are approx 8 ft and 12ft respectively. In addition to higher sensitivity, the 167 definitely produces a deeper and weightier foundation, and bigger soundstage, but in the smaller room, I personally find the 127's mid-range and imaging superior. It would certainly be my first suggestion to consider the smaller full range driver in a room your size.
edit: as to what is "most recommended" for (other folks to use in) a small sized room - well based on my own experience, as often as not that's not based on direct experience
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the FE127E could well be an ideal fit for the room shown in your pictures.
Will it reproduce highs like a Lowther DX3? Uh, no - but I have been building a variety of enclosures for, and listening to this particular Fostex driver for well over 5 years now, and have never felt the need for tweeters, or EQ/correction of any type. Indeed, in my own little listening room (under 9ft wide, and rather long), I'm quite happy with the quality of the bottom end as well, particularly in either the Fonken or Scott Lindgren's Brynn enclosure.
As I've probably described elsewhere, I also have 2 pairs of a larger version of the Fonken enclosure for FE167E - one each in the smaller room and a much larger family room setting ( i.e. 340sq ft). Listening distances are approx 8 ft and 12ft respectively. In addition to higher sensitivity, the 167 definitely produces a deeper and weightier foundation, and bigger soundstage, but in the smaller room, I personally find the 127's mid-range and imaging superior. It would certainly be my first suggestion to consider the smaller full range driver in a room your size.
edit: as to what is "most recommended" for (other folks to use in) a small sized room - well based on my own experience, as often as not that's not based on direct experience
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I have Fostex FF125k in a test bass-reflex enclosure. My room is little bigger.
Bass is enough for only about 60% of music types, but for sure it goes low enough for integrating with a subwofer. I think that even FF85k in a horn my go low enough for integrating with a subwoofer in a small room.
Midrange of FF125K is excellent. Voices are perfect. All voices, not only female voices like some comments that I read before buying the driver.
Highs are also very good. I will use ribbon tweeter from 6-10kHz.
I am using it with BSC: 0.8mH in parallel with 6.8Ohm resistor.
I am still not decided between building a BIB for Fostex or adding a Woofer from 2-400Hz.
Bass is enough for only about 60% of music types, but for sure it goes low enough for integrating with a subwofer. I think that even FF85k in a horn my go low enough for integrating with a subwoofer in a small room.
Midrange of FF125K is excellent. Voices are perfect. All voices, not only female voices like some comments that I read before buying the driver.
Highs are also very good. I will use ribbon tweeter from 6-10kHz.
I am using it with BSC: 0.8mH in parallel with 6.8Ohm resistor.
I am still not decided between building a BIB for Fostex or adding a Woofer from 2-400Hz.
13-ply void-free plywood 🙂
A local lumberyard or building supply place should stock it, not the kind of thing you'll find in most big-box home improvement stores.
A local lumberyard or building supply place should stock it, not the kind of thing you'll find in most big-box home improvement stores.
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