The knock on German cars is that they are not very reliable whereas Japanese cars are a lot more reliable and better engineered.
An anecdote:
I've been to a track event where they had some German cars and a guy who brought a Toyota Corolla. After a few laps, the Corolla would overheat and the brakes would overheat too, while the BMW did much better on the track.
I've had 2 different BMW M3's in the past and while they may not be "reliable" but they are really incredible machines.
I've rented Corolla and Camry before and they feel somewhat like appliances on wheels. They may be reliable and dependable but they have absolutely no personality.
Currently I drive a Honda Civic. I would do a hard stop and the brakes don't feel very good. The steering feels a bit weak, and the chassis does not have the same heft as my old BMW. Overall it just doesn't inspire confidence.
A friend of mine would complain that his BMW brake discs would need regular replacement. It turns out that it's a matter of trade off. You could overdesign the brake disc and it would last a long time, but it would add unsprung weight especially on the front where it would affect the handling. The BMW would trade off toward performance hence the lighter brake disc but reliability suffers.
My BMW M3 engine water pump would need replacement after 80K miles whereas on the Civic would go for a lot longer. Not only that, the M3 radiator will need replacement at about the same time but the Civic will last much longer. What happens is the M3 water pump and radiator are made of some plastic composite which will save weight and improves the performance but won't last as long as if they were made of metal composite like on the Civic.
Another example on weight saving. The M3 would use very small plastic clips to hold the panels underneath the car, whereas the Japanese cars would use rather heavy screws. These little measures all add up to a lot of weight.
Most German car components are designed to last just long enough to save weight. A lot of the criticism on German car mostly come down to weight saving and why is that important?
Most people agree that German cars feel more substantial and they have a certain heft especially on the highway where they feel more planted vs. a more floaty feel of the Japanese cars. All that despite these cars all have the same weight. Most people although can't explain why but they can feel it.
Why? Because of the weight saving, German cars can transfer all of that saving into chassis rigidity. German cars can add extra weight to the chassis to make it stronger and more substantial. And you can feel that when you drive the car. No magic just basic engineering.
An anecdote:
I've been to a track event where they had some German cars and a guy who brought a Toyota Corolla. After a few laps, the Corolla would overheat and the brakes would overheat too, while the BMW did much better on the track.
I've had 2 different BMW M3's in the past and while they may not be "reliable" but they are really incredible machines.
I've rented Corolla and Camry before and they feel somewhat like appliances on wheels. They may be reliable and dependable but they have absolutely no personality.
Currently I drive a Honda Civic. I would do a hard stop and the brakes don't feel very good. The steering feels a bit weak, and the chassis does not have the same heft as my old BMW. Overall it just doesn't inspire confidence.
A friend of mine would complain that his BMW brake discs would need regular replacement. It turns out that it's a matter of trade off. You could overdesign the brake disc and it would last a long time, but it would add unsprung weight especially on the front where it would affect the handling. The BMW would trade off toward performance hence the lighter brake disc but reliability suffers.
My BMW M3 engine water pump would need replacement after 80K miles whereas on the Civic would go for a lot longer. Not only that, the M3 radiator will need replacement at about the same time but the Civic will last much longer. What happens is the M3 water pump and radiator are made of some plastic composite which will save weight and improves the performance but won't last as long as if they were made of metal composite like on the Civic.
Another example on weight saving. The M3 would use very small plastic clips to hold the panels underneath the car, whereas the Japanese cars would use rather heavy screws. These little measures all add up to a lot of weight.
Most German car components are designed to last just long enough to save weight. A lot of the criticism on German car mostly come down to weight saving and why is that important?
Most people agree that German cars feel more substantial and they have a certain heft especially on the highway where they feel more planted vs. a more floaty feel of the Japanese cars. All that despite these cars all have the same weight. Most people although can't explain why but they can feel it.
Why? Because of the weight saving, German cars can transfer all of that saving into chassis rigidity. German cars can add extra weight to the chassis to make it stronger and more substantial. And you can feel that when you drive the car. No magic just basic engineering.
Have a read at post #43561 here:
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II
I still have both the Toyota cars mentioned. The Corolla is now near 20 yrs old, has failed one MOT (annual legal test) on a bulb that had become a bit less 'orangey' coloured. The Auris continues to pile on the miles with a 100% reliability record although I did fit a new AGM battery in February this year as the old one although still essentially OK was down on capacity and the Stop/Start often failed to cut in.
I wouldn't consider any German car as my own experience has been that they are over hyped and poorly engineered, poorly designed and poorly built.
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II
I still have both the Toyota cars mentioned. The Corolla is now near 20 yrs old, has failed one MOT (annual legal test) on a bulb that had become a bit less 'orangey' coloured. The Auris continues to pile on the miles with a 100% reliability record although I did fit a new AGM battery in February this year as the old one although still essentially OK was down on capacity and the Stop/Start often failed to cut in.
I wouldn't consider any German car as my own experience has been that they are over hyped and poorly engineered, poorly designed and poorly built.
Hi,
..."over hyped and poorly engineered, poorly designed and poorly built"
... don´t You forget overprized 😉
But then ... such a judgement from a compatriot of a country that designed a Robin Reliant or a Rolls Royce Corniche. 😛
See three of the most hilarious reviews from TopGear and make up your own mind. 😀
Robin Reliant
and RR Corniche vs. Mercedes 600 p.1 
and RR Corniche vs. Mercedes 50 p.2 
cheers Mate,
Calvin
..."over hyped and poorly engineered, poorly designed and poorly built"
... don´t You forget overprized 😉
But then ... such a judgement from a compatriot of a country that designed a Robin Reliant or a Rolls Royce Corniche. 😛
See three of the most hilarious reviews from TopGear and make up your own mind. 😀
Robin Reliant
and RR Corniche vs. Mercedes 600 p.1 and RR Corniche vs. Mercedes 50 p.2 cheers Mate,
Calvin
It is utterly ridiculous to compare an M3 to a Civic. Pick an M3 Japanese equivalent if you want to draw any sensible conclusions. Many to choose from.
Yes, sometimes we act suprisingly immature, being adults and so on. Automobiles prove nothing of manufacturer's (any nation) know-how, they just prove that they are built in some way which may be anything.
You know what bothers me most, the more and more stuffing of contemporary vehicles with electronics a layman will never be able to repair himself. You see, manufacturers wants us unable to do anything.
You know what bothers me most, the more and more stuffing of contemporary vehicles with electronics a layman will never be able to repair himself. You see, manufacturers wants us unable to do anything.
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Cars and men.... prejudice, preference and deals built on emotion. Even if the numbers are clear then brand preference always wins.
I take the advice of second hand car sellers very serious but only when they notice you are a critical customer. Needless to say it is rarely the car I had in mind before and ... it is never a German car.
I take the advice of second hand car sellers very serious but only when they notice you are a critical customer. Needless to say it is rarely the car I had in mind before and ... it is never a German car.
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That's a given, it takes a trained eye to spot certain quality engineering.
My experience with German engineering is that it's usually quite good, but vastly over-complicated and the finished product is often not optimalized as a whole.
Branch testing is well and good, but the branches combine to make a complete product.
M3s are excellent vehicles, but as stated above a more fair comparison would be with perhaps a Nissan GT-R.
Well cars do not have ethnicity but they do have manufacturers and bmw is garbage. I am not just talking sh!t, many facts back this up, I have owned 3. Magazines try to rate bmw m series against a new Lexus and cannot complete the test because multiple m series cars won’t run, this is but 1 example it has happened many times over the last 4 decades...I think jags have more Motorsports titles (which says a lot more about bmw then jag), also bmw competes in almost nothing and wins even less...real world I have blown up a 5 series cause bmw designers though a CR over 11:1 would work with the crap 91 octane available here in California...the looks of a car is also engineering and here bmw is a master, they design beautiful cars, I have owned 3 knowing they would blow up, my 318 blow up during its first ‘club’ race, the 320 and 525 both blow up having never been exerted. As far as Japanese manufacturers my real world experience (track or street) you can blow up a Honda but not a Toyota, making either fast without sacrificing reliability is exhausting and don’t blink or that masterful Subaru boxer will smoke you, none of them look as good as a bmw...fast, good looking and reliable is the holy grail, very few cars have ever pulled it off, something like a first year type R with a supercharger comes close, MB is also trying hard to get there, Porsche used to live in a land by itself, then they started making 4 doors and SUVs, the local fair here in the US are sometimes fast and good looking but please don’t take them into a corner, truly garbage superficial engineering, dr Porsche is laughing while juggling full circle connecting rods
Let's compare the M3 to the Toyota Supra 🙂
Joking aside, I test drove the Ford Fiesta it was quite good and really an amazing car. Doesn't have to be expensive to be good. It definitely felt better than the Civic.
As a family we have two toyota's a 2021 corolla 2 liter hybrid and a 2018 mk3 yaris 1.5 petrol, the last few cars have been bmw 2019 440i, 2017 340i, 2014 M3, before purchasing the Bmw's I tried the higher end lexus and infiniti and although easily Bmw's equal in quality and tech the drive felt mostly soulless, mostly in performance terms, but getting older and kids moving out made us rethink whether we needed bigger cars, hence why we looked at toyota for the first time in many years, we found the design, quality and tech has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of years compared to their previous offerings. The 2 litre hybrid corolla we've found is an excellent car and certainly fast enough at 180hp. The Yaris is something we didn't think we'd like with a popular opinion of it being an old persons car, but we really like it, body style wise in our opinion easily one of the best looking superminis, especially in the blue bitone. Performance is what you'd expect from it, nippy round town, great mpg all round for a petrol, although we were very surprised how it performs on the motorway at speeds you wouldn't necessarily see a yaris doing, planted and smooth with no problem passing many cars whilst in the outside lane 😉
Will I stick with Japanese in the future? Reliability rather than out and out performance is becoming more important as I age, but who knows?
Will I stick with Japanese in the future? Reliability rather than out and out performance is becoming more important as I age, but who knows?
Hi,
..."over hyped and poorly engineered, poorly designed and poorly built"
... don´t You forget overprized 😉
But then ... such a judgement from a compatriot of a country that designed a Robin Reliant or a Rolls Royce Corniche. 😛
See three of the most hilarious reviews from TopGear and make up your own mind. 😀
Robin Reliant
cheers Mate,
Calvin
😀
Best car I ever owned was a Mercedes E class. I drive a Citroen C4 now (my second one) - fantastic on the motorway and >60 MPG - 8 speed automatic. Didn't like the Lexus and not a fan of BMW (had 318 and 520).
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For many years there was only one king of the hill for reliability and lack of recalls. That of course was Toyota. It all changed in 1984 when they introduced their own mini-van. They have not recovered from that dark cloud.
At one time all four members of my family drove Celicas.
Now I drive Ford.
At one time all four members of my family drove Celicas.
Now I drive Ford.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I had a Ford Mustang 5.0”, pretty much just what it looks like, a huge engine with parts from the junk bin bolted around it. But the latest 5.0 with 4 valves/cylinder is much better and a joy to drive. I also had a Taurus. After that experience I will never buy a Ford again.
I bought a Corolla as a stop gap 14yrs ago, waiting for finances to buy a BMW 3, but it has been so practical and so reliable I just never bothered even though the cash sits ready.
I bought a Corolla as a stop gap 14yrs ago, waiting for finances to buy a BMW 3, but it has been so practical and so reliable I just never bothered even though the cash sits ready.
2008 Corolla owner here. 260,000KMs on the clock. It's been flawless during that time. Rock bottom cost of ownership and 100% dependable. I'd happily drive it across the country tomorow. I'll gladly buy another one in ten years when I get tired of looking at the one I currently own. In the meantime I'll travel the world (When we can!) with the money I saved.
