I think that in some cases a gated measurement might be a better representation of the sound as we perceive it. Linkwitz seems to think that 6-8ms represents what we basically perceive as the direct sound. I'm quite happy with my setup which shows excellent phase response when gated to ~7ms, but appears to rotate like a lawn mower blade when viewed over the full decay time
I think that in some cases a gated measurement might be a better representation of the sound as we perceive it. Linkwitz seems to think that 6-8ms represents what we basically perceive as the direct sound. I'm quite happy with my setup which shows excellent phase response when gated to ~7ms, but appears to rotate like a lawn mower blade when viewed over the full decay time
While what i have read and come to understand agrees with your definition of the time perception of direct, sounds dont begin to become distinctly separate until 30-50ms (depending on who you read). Which means (to me) 7-30ms (or so) still influences what we perceive as direct.
+1 to what wesayso said.
(love the rotating smiley btw)
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You may find this discussion on FDW useful: Feature Request: Frequency Dependent Windowing - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
As a result, REW has beta build with FDW here: Feature Request: Frequency Dependent Windowing - Page 6 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
As a result, REW has beta build with FDW here: Feature Request: Frequency Dependent Windowing - Page 6 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
That is good news! I've been hoping REW would include that! I had seen the discussion between Bob Katz and John. Glad something came from that after all.
I was kinda hoping for a window you could set yourself, for example in cycles but this will work probably. It's good to have anyway.
I was kinda hoping for a window you could set yourself, for example in cycles but this will work probably. It's good to have anyway.
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Added 07-06-2015 in a beta release, time flies, but not that fast 
The variable smoothing I've been using for a while. But the new psychoacoustic smoothing has just been added recently.
I had seen that thread before when I was looking for a way to view my FR with a window like one would use in DRC, Audiolense or Acourate.
This is a bit different, you view the perceived psychoacoustic data, if they have set that window right of coarse. Not sure what the windowing and dip limiting is yet.
The variable smoothing I've been using for a while. But the new psychoacoustic smoothing has just been added recently.
I had seen that thread before when I was looking for a way to view my FR with a window like one would use in DRC, Audiolense or Acourate.
This is a bit different, you view the perceived psychoacoustic data, if they have set that window right of coarse. Not sure what the windowing and dip limiting is yet.
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Here's how the left side looks.
BTW, that's cool about freq dependent gating in REW. I had wondered about that myself.
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Added 07-06-2015 in a beta release, time flies, but not that fast
The variable smoothing I've been using for a while. But the new psychoacoustic smoothing has just been added recently.
I had seen that thread before when I was looking for a way to view my FR with a window like one would use in DRC, Audiolense or Acourate.
This is a bit different, you view the perceived psychoacoustic data, if they have set that window right of coarse. Not sure what the windowing and dip limiting is yet.
I missed that. Your right, PSY is new. In addition to "Psychoacoustic smoothing", there is also something called "ERB smoothing" (just now downloaded the new beta version)
Here is what each looks like applied to the same measurement. I really dont know what either of these new ones mean or tell us. Anyone?
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I have no idea where you got that ERB smoothing. I'm not seeing it, what is your REW version? 5.13 Beta 3 right? Or did I miss something .
The psychoacoustic smoothing is trying to interpret what we actually hear. So it is windowing the frequency response with a variable window, mimicking how we actually hear sound and ignoring narrow dips as that is what our hearing seems to be good at too. In your case it's no surprise the results are close.
No idea yet how many cycles this window is set at. That would be good to know. As it is sort of what we talked about.
This filter is probably build to look at the direct sound we perceive. Only it comes in one handy smoothing tool so we don't have to browse different gating windows.
But what it's settings are would be good to know.
.The psychoacoustic smoothing is trying to interpret what we actually hear. So it is windowing the frequency response with a variable window, mimicking how we actually hear sound and ignoring narrow dips as that is what our hearing seems to be good at too. In your case it's no surprise the results are close.
No idea yet how many cycles this window is set at. That would be good to know. As it is sort of what we talked about.
This filter is probably build to look at the direct sound we perceive. Only it comes in one handy smoothing tool so we don't have to browse different gating windows.
But what it's settings are would be good to know.
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I have no idea where you got that ERB smoothing. I'm not seeing it, what is your REW version? 5.13 Beta 3 right? Or did I miss something
Thats my version. You dont see "ERB smoothing" ?
On mine, its located between VAR and PSY
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Windows here also.
I downloaded mine from the link on post 52:
Feature Request: Frequency Dependent Windowing - Page 6 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
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Here's how the left side looks.
BTW, that's cool about freq dependent gating in REW. I had wondered about that myself.
Greg, one more question for you. Do you eventually get a phase wrap at longer windows, say 100 to 500 between 100 Hz and 200 Hz?
Gated to about 15 ms I don't, but after that I have a wrap there. That's what I'm still fighting. I get another at an even lower frequency but I battle them one by one (lol). That's where I need a room like yours Jim!
There's an ERB template in DRC, it's also a kind of windowing based on some psychoacoustic principles I believe. But it didn't do that well in the bass department for me. I disregarded it for that reason. The timing of that window is described in the ERB template, let me look it up:
ERB appoximation windowing (65 ms at 20 Hz, 48.5 ms at 100 Hz, 12.6 ms at 1 KHz, 0.46 ms at 20 KHz)
So that's a pretty long window at high frequencies and relatively very short at lower frequencies.
Kind of like correcting the direct speaker sound and leaving the bass to the room in DRC correcting if you ask me...
65 ms is a little over one cycle at 20 Hz. Yet 0.46 ms is almost 10 cycles at 20 kHz.
Got to go, way to late over here (again)...
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With my left channel measurement (the only one I have handy right now for some reason), a phase wrap at 200hz appears suddenly at 16ms. Interesting how close in time it is to yours...
Thanks. You wouldn't like the ungated response though...
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