Dear mr. Ohman, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to jump head first into this tank of audio nerds! Guys like you, Nelson Pass, John Krutke etc. who donate time out of their lives to post on web sites like this do credit to the original spirit of the audio industry. An industry which started out as a bunch of guys slapping together amplifiers or speakers to see if their pet theories would bear fruit. Sometimes, theoretical ideals and harsh reality would be at odds, resulting in the audio equivalent road kill. At other times, their sweat and dillegence would result in audio classics which remain cherished ikons to this very day. One of Mcintosh's first retail outlets was a Radio Shack located in what was then known as " Radio Row" in lower Manhattan, New York, an area now known unfortunately as "Ground Zero". Back in those long gone days, there was no schism between high end audio and the diy community. In fact, the odious term "High End" hadn't even been coined yet! It's nice to see that some of that mojo is still around these days! Once again, many thanks!..........PS. Iv'e heard your speakers and they are not road kill!
Well, I am just as much an amateur, as you all are. 🙂
I’ve had my business in Sweden for more than 30 years, and so far it hasn’t been my ambition to make a living from it, so I haven’t! During these years I have studied, been working as an electronic designer (for Trimble) and been working as an acoustician to earn my living.
Not that I couldn’t hade done a lot of money by producing loudspeakers or other HiFi-equipment, but I did not want to. I did not want money to be the force driving it, since it would had been forced me into thinking to much of compromises that I would NOT had accepted (yes, I hate compromising, remember? The word is synergy... To search for the right that instead of counteracting, rightens the others! 🙂 (if there is such a word)).
I believe that there is at least “one ting” (yes, from another film) that you (me, you everyone) just have to find out what it is - a thing that you care about too much to ever compromise about. And then stick to it, never abandon it. For me that has been the struggle to find sonic fidelity.
So - I have not been a professional (someone having it as a job that earns his living), I’ve been an amateur (from the Latin word amator, nomen agentis of amare, love (via the French word amateur)).
Well, actually, that’s not true either (who am I trying to fool?). I’ve been manic about it! 😉
That’s just the way I am. If I need an answer, I just have to find it (regardless of the category of the question). But a manic behaviour is kind of a passion too, right? 🙄
Anyway – when the other Guru-guys came into the picture, it was clear to me that there it was - a solution to the equation of combining amateurism with professionalism (to uninvolved me in all that has to do with business) - I could continue do acoustic design without compromising. Actually, the industrial designer Erik Espmark, hate compromises just as much as I do, and he has given me a VETO regarding any part of the esthetical design that would counteract the acoustic performance, and I have no involvement in neither marketing nor economics of the company. The guy who came up with the whole idea is Erik Ring, a Swedish viola (braccae) player, who for many years has been working with distributing studio equipment, apart from his work as a professional musician in the Malmö symphony orchestra and his string quartet Aniara (www.aniarakvartetten.se).
So I’m still only in it for the fun (or the passion, or the mania…), because they let me be the Guru. 😎
Best regards, Ingvar
I’ve had my business in Sweden for more than 30 years, and so far it hasn’t been my ambition to make a living from it, so I haven’t! During these years I have studied, been working as an electronic designer (for Trimble) and been working as an acoustician to earn my living.
Not that I couldn’t hade done a lot of money by producing loudspeakers or other HiFi-equipment, but I did not want to. I did not want money to be the force driving it, since it would had been forced me into thinking to much of compromises that I would NOT had accepted (yes, I hate compromising, remember? The word is synergy... To search for the right that instead of counteracting, rightens the others! 🙂 (if there is such a word)).
I believe that there is at least “one ting” (yes, from another film) that you (me, you everyone) just have to find out what it is - a thing that you care about too much to ever compromise about. And then stick to it, never abandon it. For me that has been the struggle to find sonic fidelity.
So - I have not been a professional (someone having it as a job that earns his living), I’ve been an amateur (from the Latin word amator, nomen agentis of amare, love (via the French word amateur)).
Well, actually, that’s not true either (who am I trying to fool?). I’ve been manic about it! 😉
That’s just the way I am. If I need an answer, I just have to find it (regardless of the category of the question). But a manic behaviour is kind of a passion too, right? 🙄
Anyway – when the other Guru-guys came into the picture, it was clear to me that there it was - a solution to the equation of combining amateurism with professionalism (to uninvolved me in all that has to do with business) - I could continue do acoustic design without compromising. Actually, the industrial designer Erik Espmark, hate compromises just as much as I do, and he has given me a VETO regarding any part of the esthetical design that would counteract the acoustic performance, and I have no involvement in neither marketing nor economics of the company. The guy who came up with the whole idea is Erik Ring, a Swedish viola (braccae) player, who for many years has been working with distributing studio equipment, apart from his work as a professional musician in the Malmö symphony orchestra and his string quartet Aniara (www.aniarakvartetten.se).
So I’m still only in it for the fun (or the passion, or the mania…), because they let me be the Guru. 😎
Best regards, Ingvar
Ingvar,
Welcome aboard.
I just found about your work this year, in this forum. Maybe the reason is that of a lack of previous "translated" technical information, who knows. There is a lot of good information in swedish.
Can you point to some of that information (website, pictures or documents) about the tests that you performed at the Audiophile Society comparing the Guru's with ten more brands? (Unless you didn't do any measures and it was just by hear, I don't know.)
Do you know if the article from Stereophile on the Guru's is also available on-line?
Best regards, and good endeavours.
Welcome aboard.
I just found about your work this year, in this forum. Maybe the reason is that of a lack of previous "translated" technical information, who knows. There is a lot of good information in swedish.
Can you point to some of that information (website, pictures or documents) about the tests that you performed at the Audiophile Society comparing the Guru's with ten more brands? (Unless you didn't do any measures and it was just by hear, I don't know.)
Do you know if the article from Stereophile on the Guru's is also available on-line?
Best regards, and good endeavours.
Inductor said:
Thank you!
(But you have to explain that expression, I'm not familiar with it. I get the impression that I have just joined something. Have I?)
Well, A lot of the work I have done in sweden have ended up as articles in the Swedish magazine 'Musik & Ljudteknik' (which translates as Music & Audio Technology). The most of the work I've done (>95% of it) has not resulted in any articles published at all. A lot of the unpublished studies has been talked about a lot anyway (due to discussions I've started and/or things spread by people participating in the studies) and has inspired others to do "falsification studies" though. So there are quite a few studies that has been done on the Swedish institutes of technology, as verification/falsification studies on my theses. (So far, I know only of verifications. 🙂)
Actually, I prefer it that way, because then I'm thus less blamed for speaking in my own interest, whish is something that people have a tendency to believe very often in Sweden at the same time as they regard that as a very bad thing (we have something called "Jante-lagen" in Sweden. It is basically a believe that it is ok to disbelieve, disregard or back stab anything that becomes a success. And you don’t have to use arguments when you speak badly of successes! A lot of persons in Sweden believe in the Jante-lag, and they use it a lot. Probably it makes them feel good). Most people in Sweden are not smitten by the Jante-lag however, but to many are.
If you are referring to "my work" as my work with loudspeakers though, then there is not all that much to find, other than other peoples experiences with them. The reason is, that my problem here in Sweden has always been too much interest (I can not produce the amounts that corresponds to what people wants to buy) so to "hold things back", I have never advertised nor had a home page working in Sweden.
But I have been writing a lot of articles over the years, in Swedish. They have never been about my loudspeakers though.
Well, you have to tell me about it first. 😉
The information that I have participated in something like that, is news to me! 🙂
Probably it was something that was done by others. I have not even heard abort it.
No, sorry. I do not know of such things. I’m just engineering the loudspeakers.
I did get an email with a pdf from our American distributor, made from one of the pages from Stereophile writing about our speakers. And a few weeks later, I got the magazine by post. As I remember it, they were very positive. (As they were “live” at the New York show. At the stereophile panel discussion the second day of the show, I believe we were mentioned by ALL the editors who so far had had the time to visit us(!), when Atkinson ask them all to pick out something worth mentioning on the show. So, the last day of the show, we had the pleasure to have all the other stereophile editors in our room, sometimes many or them at the same time! I was very impressed by the music they brought. Obviously the stereophile editors are all music-persons, and not just gear-maniacs.).
That’s all I know.
Best regards, Ingvar
IngOehman said:
all you say here is in the public domain. so, one can say, you joined the creative commons quest for sound.
welcome aboard 😉
I´ve never heard of the "often referred rainbow effect" in this context. Is it possible to give an example of a reference of that effect?IngOehman said:
I have not shared those experiences youre describing here. If youre not able to give a reference to this effect, is it not possible that your experience could have other causes? For example the influence of expectation based on yor knowledge?
IngOehman said:
As with the described "geometrical errors"
References? Possible other causes to the described experiences?
How do you measure colorations (which is a sensation)?IngOehman said:
How could the exact relations between experienced colorations and the causes you claim be verified?
Or is it something you calculate from measurement data?
Hi guys!
Long time, no see 🙂
I guess a few of you remember me more as Magnus on the former Basslist.
Anyway, I visited Nick at Lambda Acoustics and guess what - he was starting his buisness by influence of Ingvar Öhman. Nick was so impressed with Ingvars knowledge on how to construct low distorsion motor systems.
To bad Nick is no longer in buisness. I am sad I lost contact with him some six years ago.
Anyway, this guy know his stuff! Take good care of him and he might contribue to the forum in a very positive way.
Best regards,
Magnus
.. from Sweden
Long time, no see 🙂
I guess a few of you remember me more as Magnus on the former Basslist.
Anyway, I visited Nick at Lambda Acoustics and guess what - he was starting his buisness by influence of Ingvar Öhman. Nick was so impressed with Ingvars knowledge on how to construct low distorsion motor systems.
To bad Nick is no longer in buisness. I am sad I lost contact with him some six years ago.
Anyway, this guy know his stuff! Take good care of him and he might contribue to the forum in a very positive way.
Best regards,
Magnus
.. from Sweden
OT:
The adverb ABOARD has 4 senses:
1. on a ship, train, plane or other vehicle
2. on first or second or third base
3. side by side
4. part of a group
The adverb ABOARD has 4 senses:
1. on a ship, train, plane or other vehicle
2. on first or second or third base
3. side by side
4. part of a group
Regarding this:
The best I can do is this: NO! (It is pretty much the answer to all your questions.)
Since you do not acknowledge anything of what I wrote as neither accurate, plausible nor even understandable - I see no point in commenting anything in your posting. It is obvious that you do not want to make any effort what so ever to understand, evaluate anything, nor do you even give me the benefit of the doubt.
All that you do is asking/ordering me to serve you with information, that you have proven enough times, you will disbelieve anyway.
I have no more answers for you Patrik Finn.
Best regards, Ingvar
patrikf said:
The best I can do is this: NO! (It is pretty much the answer to all your questions.)
Since you do not acknowledge anything of what I wrote as neither accurate, plausible nor even understandable - I see no point in commenting anything in your posting. It is obvious that you do not want to make any effort what so ever to understand, evaluate anything, nor do you even give me the benefit of the doubt.
All that you do is asking/ordering me to serve you with information, that you have proven enough times, you will disbelieve anyway.
I have no more answers for you Patrik Finn.
Best regards, Ingvar
Patrikf,
it's very sad to see that you still can't let this go and that you have this behaviour of a stalker. You have been given so much info on these things earlier and never showed any will to really learn or try to understand or even discuss in a constructive way.
Your ill willed agenda is obvious and not only to us that have seen this coming from you for a long time, but even to several international members in the thread.
We know what you think, now stop making yourself look bad is my advice to you.
Why don't you put up some sudies and falsify Ingvars findings? That would save your face.
/Peter
it's very sad to see that you still can't let this go and that you have this behaviour of a stalker. You have been given so much info on these things earlier and never showed any will to really learn or try to understand or even discuss in a constructive way.
Your ill willed agenda is obvious and not only to us that have seen this coming from you for a long time, but even to several international members in the thread.
We know what you think, now stop making yourself look bad is my advice to you.
Why don't you put up some sudies and falsify Ingvars findings? That would save your face.
/Peter
tinitus said:
A misconcepion here I believe. A speakers output should be more or less flat and should not compensate for the fact that real life sounds often have a falling energy content towards the highest octave.
The deviation from the flat response of the speakers that is mentioned in this thread is about small compensations for the shadow effect on sounds eminating from various angels in front of a listener. See HRTF.
Sounds coming from a single loudspeaker does not sound the same as when the same signal is coming from two loudspeakers placed as in a stereo setup.
/Peter
Wow, Pan, you sure have done some digging there
Would still like to see some kind of response grafh though 🙂
Would still like to see some kind of response grafh though 🙂
Pan is right, when the small room acoustic situation is viewed.
In small rooms#, this is the case: The stereo system compensations I’m talking about are not there to mimic the energy response of an orchestra, only to take care of the timbral and geometric errors that occurs due to the “non multiple angle exposure” that characterize the stereo systems way of communicating with our hearing. Only two angles are present in the direct sound, and those are thus overrepresented, and that is causing the colorations. The dignity of the compensation that is optimal depends on the dispersion properties of the loudspeaker, as well as the properties of the listening room. If the room is optimized for its job (according to the target that follows the design of the loudspeaker), the loudspeakers behaviours can be sculptured for its purpose. If the room is an unknown object, it is more difficult to claim that one specific compensation represents the optimum. But within what are normal behaviours for rooms that spans from home cinemas to living rooms, the difference isn’t all that big.
So I’m not designing a loudspeaker that has a transfer function that tries to change a linear energy curve, to one the looks like the energy emitted from an orchestra modified by the frequency depending absorption from a symphonic hall.
The energy response of the source + a room (orchestra in a hall) is not the same thing as the response of the transfer function of a speaker. The energy response of the orchestra will (in a good recording) be represented on the recording, and there is no need to "mimicing it" by designing loudspeakers exhibiting that behaviour. The loudspeakers should only recreate the recorded information (with it’s inherent spectral properties) – and to do that, they have to compensate for the flaws of the stereo system, which will add (colour) to the perceived timbre other vice.
However - when music is reproduced in larger rooms (though still halls optimized for reproduced music*, and not live music) studies have showed that the frequency response at listening position (=energy curve of the loudspeaker-room combination, I'm not talking about gated measurements) is typically perceived natural, when even the transfer function of the whole (=the energy curve) has a “logical relation” to the reverberation of the very same hall, which typically means that we end up with a frequency response that falls above approximately 2 kHz (~3 dB/octave). In a good hall that is.
However, this does (when everything is as its best) correspond fairly well linear frequency response for the first arrival sound! 🙂 It is important to remember that large halls makes it close to impossible to seat people at distances close to the acoustic radius of the hall. On the contrary, everyone in it will listen to a sound that is totally dominated by reflected sound (even when loudspeakers with a lot of directivity is used) but - we still can interpret what is the response of the direct sound! In halls with "comfortable acoustic properties", reverberation time lessens at higher frequencies, which is the reason to the falling response of the energy curve.
This is a well know fact and the curve satisfying what by many (the exact shape is subjective of coarse) is perceived as timbrally neutral, is typically referred to as the X-curve.
Best regards, Ingvar
- - - - -
*Such as movie theatres
#For this discussion, I refere to "small rooms", as rooms with a repetition frequency of reflections of less than 20 ms in at least two, typically all tree dimensions, and a possiblility (by damping) to have listening spots closer to the loudspeakers than the room radius times two above the schröder frequency.
In small rooms#, this is the case: The stereo system compensations I’m talking about are not there to mimic the energy response of an orchestra, only to take care of the timbral and geometric errors that occurs due to the “non multiple angle exposure” that characterize the stereo systems way of communicating with our hearing. Only two angles are present in the direct sound, and those are thus overrepresented, and that is causing the colorations. The dignity of the compensation that is optimal depends on the dispersion properties of the loudspeaker, as well as the properties of the listening room. If the room is optimized for its job (according to the target that follows the design of the loudspeaker), the loudspeakers behaviours can be sculptured for its purpose. If the room is an unknown object, it is more difficult to claim that one specific compensation represents the optimum. But within what are normal behaviours for rooms that spans from home cinemas to living rooms, the difference isn’t all that big.
So I’m not designing a loudspeaker that has a transfer function that tries to change a linear energy curve, to one the looks like the energy emitted from an orchestra modified by the frequency depending absorption from a symphonic hall.
The energy response of the source + a room (orchestra in a hall) is not the same thing as the response of the transfer function of a speaker. The energy response of the orchestra will (in a good recording) be represented on the recording, and there is no need to "mimicing it" by designing loudspeakers exhibiting that behaviour. The loudspeakers should only recreate the recorded information (with it’s inherent spectral properties) – and to do that, they have to compensate for the flaws of the stereo system, which will add (colour) to the perceived timbre other vice.
However - when music is reproduced in larger rooms (though still halls optimized for reproduced music*, and not live music) studies have showed that the frequency response at listening position (=energy curve of the loudspeaker-room combination, I'm not talking about gated measurements) is typically perceived natural, when even the transfer function of the whole (=the energy curve) has a “logical relation” to the reverberation of the very same hall, which typically means that we end up with a frequency response that falls above approximately 2 kHz (~3 dB/octave). In a good hall that is.
However, this does (when everything is as its best) correspond fairly well linear frequency response for the first arrival sound! 🙂 It is important to remember that large halls makes it close to impossible to seat people at distances close to the acoustic radius of the hall. On the contrary, everyone in it will listen to a sound that is totally dominated by reflected sound (even when loudspeakers with a lot of directivity is used) but - we still can interpret what is the response of the direct sound! In halls with "comfortable acoustic properties", reverberation time lessens at higher frequencies, which is the reason to the falling response of the energy curve.
This is a well know fact and the curve satisfying what by many (the exact shape is subjective of coarse) is perceived as timbrally neutral, is typically referred to as the X-curve.
Best regards, Ingvar
- - - - -
*Such as movie theatres
#For this discussion, I refere to "small rooms", as rooms with a repetition frequency of reflections of less than 20 ms in at least two, typically all tree dimensions, and a possiblility (by damping) to have listening spots closer to the loudspeakers than the room radius times two above the schröder frequency.
IngOehman said:
Anyone who has ever been involved in setting up a well designed psychological test knows that it is complicated, even to test simple perceptual functions.
When it comes to testing the subtile (and previously unknown) effects associated with listening to recorded music, claimed to have been quantified in decibel terms, the problems with validity becomes enormous. For that reason information on how this unique experiments were conducted is crucial for being able to get a rational based opinion on the subject.
Greetings Patrik, As much as I hate to get in the middle of a donnybrook between too guys who obviously have deeper technical chops than my humble self, I feel I must jump in here. Ingvar's speakers sound really nice! They sound better than a lot of the over priced snake oil Iv'e heard at audio shows and exclusive audio salons. The guy must be doing something right! I'm not easy to impress by speakers and my ears will always remain the final arbiter no matter what kind of technical gobbledygook gets thrown my way. I'm not a shill for Guru speakers but they were among the few which impressed me at the 2007 Stereophile show! PS I also liked Pioneers TAD Floor standers but they cost 60 big ones!
Oh, really? Is that so? Tell me more about your vast experience in this field!
Oh, really? Is that so? Tell me more about your vast experience in this field!
Oh, really? Is that so? Tell me more about your vast experience in this field!
Here is some free advice to you Patrik Finn:
Stop wasting my time, and yours. Direct your questions to someone who you'll trust say what you want them to say. Someone you trust not to surprise you with uncomfortable truths, that’ll rock your world of comfortable preconceptions*.
Or do your own research.
You have already proven time and time again, that it is pointless to answer any of your questions. And it should be as obvious for you, that you will never get the answers that you want from me. I will answer what I believe is the truth (/is the relevent explanation#), not what you want me to say (so far, it seems they are never the same).
If you just want a yes-sayer – go find one!
Vh, iö
- - - - -
*Actually… it is what you do already. You’re clearly asking questions only to await the answer, denying it, and then answering your own questions!
(Typically with some nihilistic bunkum proving that there were no answers that you would have accepted anyway.)
#Feel free to try to falsify it. (Saying: "-I don't believe you" is not a falsification.)
tc-60guy.
I must remind you that i stated earlier in this thread that I like the sound from Ingohmans speakers🙂.
What we argue about is not that.
From my point of view the whole thing reminds me a little of the danish company Audiovector which speakers I also like. They make a mystical claim that their speakers sounds good partly due to a "cryo-treatment" or freezing of crossovers and cables. Its easy to evaluate if such a statement is true or not by comparing it with common knowledge about physics.
Since the explanations we are discussing in this tread is supported on claims about psychological funktions of humans they are not easy to evaluate logical like the example with "cryo-treatment".
If you study the explanations given by Ohman more careful you will find that there is not sufficient information given to be able to compare it with our common knowledge about human hearing.
I must remind you that i stated earlier in this thread that I like the sound from Ingohmans speakers🙂.
What we argue about is not that.
From my point of view the whole thing reminds me a little of the danish company Audiovector which speakers I also like. They make a mystical claim that their speakers sounds good partly due to a "cryo-treatment" or freezing of crossovers and cables. Its easy to evaluate if such a statement is true or not by comparing it with common knowledge about physics.
Since the explanations we are discussing in this tread is supported on claims about psychological funktions of humans they are not easy to evaluate logical like the example with "cryo-treatment".
If you study the explanations given by Ohman more careful you will find that there is not sufficient information given to be able to compare it with our common knowledge about human hearing.
Hello again Patrik, Those who've read some of my posts on other threads on this fourm know my take on hoodoo products like cryogenicly treated cables, smart chip cd harmonizers, bubinga wood hocky pucs, various magical goos,..... etc. As I posess neither the technical expertise nor the test gear to verify or refute Mr. Oehmans claims, I can only rely on my subjective impressions of his speakers. It is my experience however that charlatans generaly don't make products as solid as Mr. Oehmans' . Although the acrimony between you and Mr. Oehman is kind of fun in a cage match,blood sport sort of way, it does muddy up the waters a bit! We are not curing cancer here. Most of us who post here are hobbyists who just want to celebrate the reproduction of sound and music. At the end of the day, I guess what I want to say to you and Mr. Oehman is,...........Play nice guys!
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