Yes, it's well documented that hearing acuity changes with age, with a loss in overall sensitivity and a more pronounced loss of high frequencies.
Thanks, but two things: 1, if you have documentation about the ability to locate being a wider angle with age, please share. I would find that interesting.
2. My posts are not based on my own hearing. In research the last thing you want to do is base a conclusion only on your personal perceptions of in test. In other words, you can't be the only tester. It takes a lot of expensive testing with a statistically significant number of testers and a significant number of trials, and scroupulous double-blind administration to be able to compile enough data to obtain good results resolution.
The seminal paper on this is "High-Resolution Subjective Testing Using a Double-Blind Comparator" by David L. Clark, J-AES, May 1, 1982. David is sadly gone now, but I still own and use his comparator system.
The fact that hearing in older people degrades in any aspect does not put my posts into any particular perspective. But if someone else claims to have performed any sort of testing, controlled or not, and they are the only tester, you have to pretty much chalk the results up to opinion, because there is bias involved, and far too little actual data.
Just to comment, testing hearing with Audacity is a process loaded with error. Audacity can only generate tones. It has no way to verify the specific tone level. Audiology provides a hearing profile based on level and frequency, and a lot of attention is paid to the specific SPL presented to the ears. Nobody at home with Audacity can possibly do that. But you certainy can pump enough 15kHz into your ears to "hear" it. Heck, even at my age, I can "hear" 15kHz if the SPL is high enough. That doesn't mean there isn't hearing loss.
BTW, please DO NOT pump high SPL into your ears. Ever, at any frequency.
But when 100 independent people see the dodo, it does call into question the veracity of those who deny its existence. That is the basis of science.
The good news is that although hearing ability diminishes with age and NIHL (AKA sound exposure), hearing acuity normally increases. That is a natural consequence of experience.
Do you know the definition of acuity? Why do you think experienced audio engineers (AKA older engineers) are better at producing recordings? Hint: it isn't because they have better hearing. It is because they 'hear' better, despite the loss of hearing measured ability.
I've had a couple of goes already. If you don't get, I'm not sure I can help. Go back and try again. It is a REALLY IMPORTANT part of science, and without it science and technology would still be in the dark ages.
No I already got the science part, I use it every day. What point were you trying to make here?
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Yes. Do you? Google the definition of the medical term.
Right, they've lost hearing acuity, the measure of someones ability to hear on which hearing correction is based.
That's not acuity though. The medical definition is quiet clear. It's what is measured in a hearing evaluation.
I don't disagree that older engineers are better at producing recordings, but it's not because their acuity got better, it definitely did not. They've learned to use the tools and how to respond with decisions and adjustments. It's a skill, not acuity.
To be clear, hearing acuity does not increase with age or experience.
I'm in Australia so maybe language is different here. I was the hearing conservation officer for an entertainment center in Australia for about 10 years and responsible for managing the organisation's risk to NIHL, which included sound exposure to bar staff in club venues as well as sound engineers and air-conditioning plant operators. The take home message here is that, yes, hearing ability diminishes with age and exposure, but hearing acuity, defined in our country as the ability to distinguish finesse in sound whether live or recorded, actually increases with experience, AKA age.
Edit: I should say that acuity has nothing to do with measured NIHL or organisational OHS risk. It was not measured when I was responsible for managing noise exposure to staff. My comment about acuity is based on my experience as an electroacoustic engineer after I left the performing arts centre.
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Yes, a difference in terminology. In the USA the definition is: "The clarity or clearness of hearing, a measure of how well a person hears. Auditory acuity is measured in order to determine a person's need for a hearing aid." There are variations in wording, but it all means a measure of the ability to hear, and is measured by testing for threshold of hearing vs frequency, and scaling the results against a "normal" hearing threshold curve, an objective measurement. The results form the basis for DSP-based hearing correction. Left and right ears often do not match.
But using hearing as a tool in production is not referred to here as acuity. That's definitely a learned skill, and unfortunately can only be measured by the final results, and not easily quantified. And definitely increases with use/age. There may come a point where hearing acuity has deminished to the point of being a hindrance to performing the profession. Hopefully after retirement. For example, in her eary 90s my mother's curve showed a 90dB loss at 8kHz. They were able to partially correct it, which I found shocking. She mixed a lot of things, but audio wasn't one of them.
Hearing tests measure the increased level of the thresholds of audible tones as hearing deteriorates. In Australia, and I think more generally, the use of the term hearing acuity is used to describe the ear/brain acoustic faculty's ability to perceive nuances in audio. In both my own personal experience, and in the scientific literature which I have read, acuity increases with age and experience and, except in abnormally severe cases, is not related to hearing loss whether age related or exposure related.
I’m with Johnmath on this one, as I get older (56) I can definitely say I’ve lost some off the top ( 14-15k ) BUT…..what I do hear seems so much more vibrant/focused, in fact I’m much more sensitive to loud noise than I ever was. Don’t know if its slowing down and paying more attention mentally or it’s some physical super hearing right before I go deaf……much like a race engine runs best right before it blows!
Also I’m a firm believer in adding two sub (one under each main, as in basically a three way)with DSP…….it’s a fine line to get the soundstage exactly right by manipulating phase relationships between sub/mains but once you do it’s amazing, I should add that my best results are after the unit does correction measurements (YPAO in my case) then to tweak by ear. I have no way way of knowing exactly what happens there but you certainly know when you get there.
classicalfan does your denon avr have audyssey?
Also I’m a firm believer in adding two sub (one under each main, as in basically a three way)with DSP…….it’s a fine line to get the soundstage exactly right by manipulating phase relationships between sub/mains but once you do it’s amazing, I should add that my best results are after the unit does correction measurements (YPAO in my case) then to tweak by ear. I have no way way of knowing exactly what happens there but you certainly know when you get there.
classicalfan does your denon avr have audyssey?
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Some of the top? You wish😉
(by the way, increased sensitivity to loud noise is actualy a fully normal phenomenon and is by audiologist considered to be one of the indicators of hearing loss)
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Just a random 5-second google search:
When the fragile hair cells in our inner ears start to degrade, as they do with age-related hearing loss and other types of sensorineural hearing loss, they can no longer react to sound waves normally. This is what causes hearing loss.
However, our cells don't degrade evenly—some hair cells remain perfectly functional and can still detect sound waves. Once the volume gets loud enough, it's these healthy cells that get suddenly "recruited" in place of the dying cells and respond quickly and forcefully. This can result in sound actually feeling startling and uncomfortable!
A common experience: A person with hearing loss doesn't respond to someone trying to get their attention while speaking at normal or low levels. As the person speaks louder and louder in an attempt to get their attention, the person with hearing loss suddenly hears them and reacts forcefully as if they are in pain, perhaps covering their ears or responding with "stop shouting!"
When the fragile hair cells in our inner ears start to degrade, as they do with age-related hearing loss and other types of sensorineural hearing loss, they can no longer react to sound waves normally. This is what causes hearing loss.
However, our cells don't degrade evenly—some hair cells remain perfectly functional and can still detect sound waves. Once the volume gets loud enough, it's these healthy cells that get suddenly "recruited" in place of the dying cells and respond quickly and forcefully. This can result in sound actually feeling startling and uncomfortable!
A common experience: A person with hearing loss doesn't respond to someone trying to get their attention while speaking at normal or low levels. As the person speaks louder and louder in an attempt to get their attention, the person with hearing loss suddenly hears them and reacts forcefully as if they are in pain, perhaps covering their ears or responding with "stop shouting!"
I've experienced a similar effect. And I can still "hear" things in a mix that others can't. I have tested with the classic age related loss of what the local medical community refers to as hearing acuity though.
Thumbs up on that. In recent years Denon dropped Audyssey from their entry-level and some mid-level AVRs, but now have it back on their $500 unit, so the OP may or may not have it. Some versions permitted a paid upgrade to the Pro version which let you use software to see the actual curves, though the graphs were unscaled. It's always possible to take Audyssey-like measurements, using fuzzy clustering, with FuzzMeasure to verify what it does. MiniDSP offers DIRAC Live, which doesn't use fuzzy clustering, or have the resolution of Audyssey at the low end, but is still quite effective.
Damit... I must change my hobby as I'm almost in the deaf slide no return way !😱
Time to go to mushrooms hunt in the forest ! If 100 Dodos shoot me with their smartphone maybe it will prove this hobby runs crazy and we are becomming bipolar ?!
Time to go to mushrooms hunt in the forest ! If 100 Dodos shoot me with their smartphone maybe it will prove this hobby runs crazy and we are becomming bipolar ?!
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/sjef.3527/ Sjef is your illustration of hearing loss from a marketing brochure for hearing aids? The charts below are from one of the largest studies ever undertaken and published in the Lancet last year (men top, women bottom).
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