For my next project I already collected a Horn (TAD TH4001 clone) and driver (18sound nd4015be).
Idea is to pick a 15" midwoofer for 30-600/700Hz). Music only, no HT subwoofer necessary.
Living room 5/6 m, want to hear loud and clean.
Closed Box of between 80-150L would be my idea, active driven by Hypex FA252.
I am not willing to pay 1700€ for the TAD 1601/1603. Quite old design, there should be more modern options available?
(dont push me on that statement
Not convinced about the JBL 2216 either for going up to 600/700 Hz.
The only comparable low MMS(86gr) low FS(26Hz) 15" I could find was the scanspeak 38WE. Price insane (1700€ as well), I dont buy the eliptical voicecoil idea too much.
But do I need an FS of 26Hz?
My alternative candidate if not would be 18sound 15NTlw3500. FS of 45Hz, MMS 106gr with a Bl of 19,5. Looks like nobody here ever used that one?
Simulating both in basta I get almost the same bass extension for the 38WE in 85L and the 18sound in 100L, both with a Q just above 0,5.
Any experience with one of these 2? I want to avoid building test cases and develop something from scratch...Of course I have checked the usual recommendations like Faital 15PR400, not convinced it would make me happy forever...
thx
Wolf
Idea is to pick a 15" midwoofer for 30-600/700Hz). Music only, no HT subwoofer necessary.
Living room 5/6 m, want to hear loud and clean.
Closed Box of between 80-150L would be my idea, active driven by Hypex FA252.
I am not willing to pay 1700€ for the TAD 1601/1603. Quite old design, there should be more modern options available?
(dont push me on that statement
Not convinced about the JBL 2216 either for going up to 600/700 Hz.
The only comparable low MMS(86gr) low FS(26Hz) 15" I could find was the scanspeak 38WE. Price insane (1700€ as well), I dont buy the eliptical voicecoil idea too much.
But do I need an FS of 26Hz?
My alternative candidate if not would be 18sound 15NTlw3500. FS of 45Hz, MMS 106gr with a Bl of 19,5. Looks like nobody here ever used that one?
Simulating both in basta I get almost the same bass extension for the 38WE in 85L and the 18sound in 100L, both with a Q just above 0,5.
Any experience with one of these 2? I want to avoid building test cases and develop something from scratch...Of course I have checked the usual recommendations like Faital 15PR400, not convinced it would make me happy forever...
thx
Wolf
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I am using the 2216nd in a 2 way crossed at 700Hz. Sounds good to me. Have you listened to a 4367? Might want to find a pair to see if it works for you. There is a difference being a -1 but still similar enough.
Rob
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...ers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-15LX60V2.pdf
here the screenshots from the post coming from a german forum
here the audio enthusiast replaced the Dayton that sounded bad in the deep mid and kick bass frequency area with a decent drive unit, a specialist for the kickbass that fits better to the large horn
you can't get the xmax = 27 mm from the RSS390HE-22 and the fabulous Qms > 20 and Rms < 2 kg / s of the Beyma 15LX60V2 in one drive unit, here you need to take for the subwoofer a different drive unit than for the kick bass
he moved the subwoofer to a small GHP enclosure with a really powerful subwoofer plate amp
with the chance to place the subwoofer in a different place he could get rid of the massive room modes problem in his very peculiar room situation
so far - so good, Stefano
P.S.: if you are happy with a cut off frequency about 40 - 45 Hz you may stay happy with two way and a larger onken bass enclosure or you need a subwoofer to go down to a cut off about 30 Hz (if your room can make it) - for 30 Hz with really high SPL you need 4 - 6 15 inch subs and not only one or two
here the screenshots from the post coming from a german forum
here the audio enthusiast replaced the Dayton that sounded bad in the deep mid and kick bass frequency area with a decent drive unit, a specialist for the kickbass that fits better to the large horn
you can't get the xmax = 27 mm from the RSS390HE-22 and the fabulous Qms > 20 and Rms < 2 kg / s of the Beyma 15LX60V2 in one drive unit, here you need to take for the subwoofer a different drive unit than for the kick bass
he moved the subwoofer to a small GHP enclosure with a really powerful subwoofer plate amp
with the chance to place the subwoofer in a different place he could get rid of the massive room modes problem in his very peculiar room situation
so far - so good, Stefano
P.S.: if you are happy with a cut off frequency about 40 - 45 Hz you may stay happy with two way and a larger onken bass enclosure or you need a subwoofer to go down to a cut off about 30 Hz (if your room can make it) - for 30 Hz with really high SPL you need 4 - 6 15 inch subs and not only one or two
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Yes I heard the 4367, perhaps not in the best environment. But I found it not really great in the lower mids.
Unfortunatly both versions are not/hard to get in Europe..
Well, in my 30m2 room 2 150l Boxes would be already a Lot. 4-6 subwoofers would make me sit without girlfriend:-(
I also dont have room for huge subs, so I go for mall sealed box with Q between 0.5 and 0.7 with DSP / Eq and take advamtage of room gain ( corner location if possible) to achieve great results. The only requirement is that you need decent 200 watt to 400 watt power amps to drive them.
I have used a the Beyma subs, 12 LX60 and the 15LX60 and really like them... A pair (one in each corner) of 15 LX60 will reach way down low with accuracy and texture... Very nice. Mms 147g with 21.1 = 6.9 ratio. This is ok, but I would not class it as "fast"
I can also highly recommend the Beyma 15P80 Ee/N...88g Mms with 22.1 Bl = a "fast" 3.98 ratio.
22I have used it for years and love it... IMO its the single best all round driver to cover 70Hz to 700Hz... Really fantastic if you can fit it onto your baffle. It works in open baffle and sealed. It does not reach as low down as the heavier coned 15LX60 but it sounds waaaaay better above 70Hz, so for your range the 15P80Fe/N is the best by a mile.
With way less than half its rated power it will hold 104dB all day with low distortion... A pair in room corners will add approx 8dB to 10dB to that figure.... Damn loud! Here is the sim with 256 watts.
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Bl does nothing without electrical current, so the acceleration factor is more likely (BL^2/Re)/Mms.
Agreed, but I always run down a check list of driver spec which eliminates all the usual suspects very quickly... If the ratio does not my own criteria for the SD / application I have in mind I wont waste my time... If it does meet my ratio then I will do a deeper dive and look for Klippel data if possible and the crucial CSD plots.
Incorporating Re into my assesment is low on my list of priorities... YMMV
Incorporating Re into my assesment is low on my list of priorities... YMMV
Thats is a good point.
In another thread (a month or two ago I think?)I go into all this some detail and one of the best single data points on most manufacturers spec sheet that I find the most useful is Reference Efficiency, expressed as "η0".
For example comparing the two Beyma 15 inch bass drivers one can instantly tell a lot:
The 15 LX60 V2 is 1.7% efficient, good but not great.
The 15P80 Fe/N is 5% efficient.... A fantastic result and one that translates into much, much lower distortion (time domain, thermal, linear and non linear) across most of the usable frequency band... 1.67% plus 200% = 5%.... Thats a HUGE factor!!
It has taken me years and lots of wasted $$$ to reach some conclusions which I believe can save Newbie DIY guys a lot of time and money so I do get a bit excited at times... Sorry if I offend anyone or seem pushy I am genuinely tying to help!
Cheers
A.
In another thread (a month or two ago I think?)I go into all this some detail and one of the best single data points on most manufacturers spec sheet that I find the most useful is Reference Efficiency, expressed as "η0".
For example comparing the two Beyma 15 inch bass drivers one can instantly tell a lot:
The 15 LX60 V2 is 1.7% efficient, good but not great.
The 15P80 Fe/N is 5% efficient.... A fantastic result and one that translates into much, much lower distortion (time domain, thermal, linear and non linear) across most of the usable frequency band... 1.67% plus 200% = 5%.... Thats a HUGE factor!!
It has taken me years and lots of wasted $$$ to reach some conclusions which I believe can save Newbie DIY guys a lot of time and money so I do get a bit excited at times... Sorry if I offend anyone or seem pushy I am genuinely tying to help!
Cheers
A.
Yes, indeed impressive from the 15P80 Fe/N. But don't forget that all this derived from only the T/S datas, which are a low level parameters and once a driver starts to move significantly, the picture may change. Im wondering what could be the downside of such a high acceleration factor and low Qts other than the early bass roll-off (which otherwise can even be beneficial).
Don't you believe in the FR?
If distortion is low (it probably is at home levels) and the driver has a good waterfall measurement I cant see what could be the problem?
I mean - if it can do 700 Hz flat with 0,05% THD and dont ring.... I dont care what certain T/S data calculations would end up in . they are about Fs anyway so totally irrelevant at anything else... think about that...
//
Please, while talking about paper cone drivers working up close to 1khz, think of making DIY the cone more stable.
Big drivers rarely have modern cone materials.
But with one sided aluminium foil or even two sided (sandwich cone) your big driver will sound completely different.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...loudspeaker-sandwich-cone.402917/post-7443474
Here a project I realized with 18inch drivers and do it yourself cone treated with alu foil.
Big drivers rarely have modern cone materials.
But with one sided aluminium foil or even two sided (sandwich cone) your big driver will sound completely different.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...loudspeaker-sandwich-cone.402917/post-7443474
Here a project I realized with 18inch drivers and do it yourself cone treated with alu foil.
Another huge and important point... I dont want to derail this thread so please seek out my recent posts from abot 8 weeks ago I think... I have a "heated debate" with several of the DIY Guru's on this vital subject... I think I won the day!
Long story short... The single biggest upgrade to loudspeaker designs is to "Prioritise Minimising" real world cone travel and keep it in the low level zone...
My favorite small midrange is a PHL 1130 with plus/minus 2 mm Xmax and 130 watts AES power handling... Nowhere near good enough!!
So I use 6 of them in an array and look at what happens... One cabinet (6 drivers) holds 111dB at 1 meter with just 8 watts...A pair os speakers holds 114 dB at 1 meter with 8 watts... BUT look at the cone travel 0.175 mm and thats at 300Hz crossover... In the critical 1KHz zone cone travel is a minuscule 0.02mm !!!
Look at the Klippel data... Plus / minus 0.5mm cone travel... The PHL array is not great... IT IS PERFECT!! It never deviates from full linearity by all three criteria.
Now The PHL is rare, but not unique (although 10g Mms with 12.7 Bl ratio of 0.0.87(!) is incredibly rare) and other drivers can be used... Even bass and mid bass.
Thats basically PERFECT! Zero time domain/thermal/non linear, IMD, THD or any distortion....
Six 6.5 inch cones Sd = one 15 inch cone Sd... All the slam with none of limitations of a 15 inch mid trying to cover 300Hz to 2KHz.
I have developed ways to combine "Prioritise Minimising" with other key techniques and I love the results.... YMMV.
