EDIT: If you want to skip to the ready speakers, you can find it here.
Hello all,
For the first time in 7 years, this winter I'll make a speaker for personal use instead of just selling them out. So I'll start from the very beginning; the room they're going to be used at. Here are the room dimensions (height is 260cm) along with current furniture: Table with sewing machine etc. hobby items for my wife, my listening chair, bookshelf, bass trap in the corner, acoustic panel behind the chair and of course the speakers themselves.
Speakers would be situated on the side wall, with around 80cm spacing between them. Due to the wide nature of the speaker, the driver-to-driver distance is actually around 140cm. My listening distance is about 2.4m. I am currently building a very flat enclosure which would give me maximum amount of free floorspace in the room.
Done:
-Decide and obtain drivers. Due to fortuitous deals on second-hand drivers from finnish hobbyists, my drivers sorted out to be Scan-Speak 10F/8424 full range along with the Peerless SLS-12 subwoofer (measurement and distortion plots are in the links, 2nd order is blue and 3rd order red). Both are basically brand-spanking-new, but just paid less of them.
-Room treatment. The thing with small listening rooms such as mine is that they are very boomy. High- and midrange dips and peaks are sorted easily with acoustic panels on a couple locations, so I bought a 100mm thick compressed polyfill panel from a finnish manufacturer. This takes care of most of the problems over 300Hz bandwitdh, which still leaves me to sort the bass. The bass trap I have in my corner helped upper bass region immensely, but I need DSP to correct the lower bass, both in room modes and boominess (high fade time).
-Enclosure planning. I am currently working on an 80l flat enclosure with an angled front baffle for the Peerless SLS-12 which will be filled with rockwool. This is a bit larger than the manufacturer application note specifies, but the bass digs deeper in it. The bass will be digitally corrected. The 10F/8424 will have a small, around 2l enclosure with no parallel walls to minimize the internal reflections. The construction material is BB plywood. Both enclosures are sealed, it gives the best transient response. The enclosure outside dimensions will be 120cm high, 50cm wide and 24cm to 17cm deep (front baffle is angled to the listening chair). The bass driver will be on top of the full range for time alignment purposes. I was planning on building a waveguide with unknown effect on performance to time align the drivers, but realized it's sometimes better to go with the easy way: just switch the bass driver on top! On my listening distance this creates a 4cm distance difference between the drivers, and along with a little flush mounting for the full range the drivers acoustic centers should be pretty well aligned.
-Finish enclosures. The material is 23mm BB ply for the front and sides, 18mm BB ply for the top, bottom and back, and 12mm ply for the internal bracing. I plan on making these beautiful 🙂
To-Do:
-Decide on which amplifier to use. I currently have TDA8932, TDA3118, TDA3116d2 and TDA7498 in stock, just need to decide which ones will be running the speakers. Currently I've been listening to the TDA7498 and find it to sound very good.
-Build DSP. For my source I will be running a Raspberry Pi 3 with Volumio. The audio signal is outputted from Hifiberry DAC+ Pro. The Raspberry Pi 3 will also run a FIR filter for the sound output. It should be beefy enough to run an incredible amount of taps (65k, for example MiniDSP max is 2k).
-Build crossover. The exact frequency and steepness will be designed on empirical tests with MiniDSP 2x4HD. Current estimate is something like -48db/oct LR crossover on 300Hz. When looking at the distortion graphs for the drivers, it seems that around 300Hz-400Hz would be the optimal place to cross these two over. The limitation with Hifiberry DAC+ is that it only has 2x RCA out, which makes the digital crossovering possibilities low. So, the crossover will be handled by good ol' active analogue crossover. If it all goes to hell, I'll just use the MiniDSP instead. The hard thing is that MiniDSP plays poorly with Raspberry Pi and Volumio, and I likely wouldn't be able to use the USB streaming feature.
-Enjoy the fruits of my labour!
Old stuff:
As the original plan was to put the speakers in the corners, I was originally thinking speaker similar to Murphy corner line arrays, but it seems that my listening position would be possibly too close (around 2m) to the speakers and they would suffer from severe HF losses due to comb filtering. Also flush mounting directly to walls would be impossible, so it would suffer from similar response irregularities as ra7 had with his corner line array.
The first pages of this thread are just speculation what drivers and what type of speaker I'd build. The thing in my mind was a FAST, done with maybe Visaton B80 or Scanspeak 10F/8414 and couple good 8" woofers in D'Appolito configuration with XO around 500Hz. I know that this would pretty much guarantee good results with less tinkering than line arrays.
The picture attached shows room dimensions.
Overall, this thread is for people to weight their input on the topic 🙂
Hello all,
For the first time in 7 years, this winter I'll make a speaker for personal use instead of just selling them out. So I'll start from the very beginning; the room they're going to be used at. Here are the room dimensions (height is 260cm) along with current furniture: Table with sewing machine etc. hobby items for my wife, my listening chair, bookshelf, bass trap in the corner, acoustic panel behind the chair and of course the speakers themselves.
Speakers would be situated on the side wall, with around 80cm spacing between them. Due to the wide nature of the speaker, the driver-to-driver distance is actually around 140cm. My listening distance is about 2.4m. I am currently building a very flat enclosure which would give me maximum amount of free floorspace in the room.
Done:
-Decide and obtain drivers. Due to fortuitous deals on second-hand drivers from finnish hobbyists, my drivers sorted out to be Scan-Speak 10F/8424 full range along with the Peerless SLS-12 subwoofer (measurement and distortion plots are in the links, 2nd order is blue and 3rd order red). Both are basically brand-spanking-new, but just paid less of them.
-Room treatment. The thing with small listening rooms such as mine is that they are very boomy. High- and midrange dips and peaks are sorted easily with acoustic panels on a couple locations, so I bought a 100mm thick compressed polyfill panel from a finnish manufacturer. This takes care of most of the problems over 300Hz bandwitdh, which still leaves me to sort the bass. The bass trap I have in my corner helped upper bass region immensely, but I need DSP to correct the lower bass, both in room modes and boominess (high fade time).
-Enclosure planning. I am currently working on an 80l flat enclosure with an angled front baffle for the Peerless SLS-12 which will be filled with rockwool. This is a bit larger than the manufacturer application note specifies, but the bass digs deeper in it. The bass will be digitally corrected. The 10F/8424 will have a small, around 2l enclosure with no parallel walls to minimize the internal reflections. The construction material is BB plywood. Both enclosures are sealed, it gives the best transient response. The enclosure outside dimensions will be 120cm high, 50cm wide and 24cm to 17cm deep (front baffle is angled to the listening chair). The bass driver will be on top of the full range for time alignment purposes. I was planning on building a waveguide with unknown effect on performance to time align the drivers, but realized it's sometimes better to go with the easy way: just switch the bass driver on top! On my listening distance this creates a 4cm distance difference between the drivers, and along with a little flush mounting for the full range the drivers acoustic centers should be pretty well aligned.
-Finish enclosures. The material is 23mm BB ply for the front and sides, 18mm BB ply for the top, bottom and back, and 12mm ply for the internal bracing. I plan on making these beautiful 🙂
To-Do:
-Decide on which amplifier to use. I currently have TDA8932, TDA3118, TDA3116d2 and TDA7498 in stock, just need to decide which ones will be running the speakers. Currently I've been listening to the TDA7498 and find it to sound very good.
-Build DSP. For my source I will be running a Raspberry Pi 3 with Volumio. The audio signal is outputted from Hifiberry DAC+ Pro. The Raspberry Pi 3 will also run a FIR filter for the sound output. It should be beefy enough to run an incredible amount of taps (65k, for example MiniDSP max is 2k).
-Build crossover. The exact frequency and steepness will be designed on empirical tests with MiniDSP 2x4HD. Current estimate is something like -48db/oct LR crossover on 300Hz. When looking at the distortion graphs for the drivers, it seems that around 300Hz-400Hz would be the optimal place to cross these two over. The limitation with Hifiberry DAC+ is that it only has 2x RCA out, which makes the digital crossovering possibilities low. So, the crossover will be handled by good ol' active analogue crossover. If it all goes to hell, I'll just use the MiniDSP instead. The hard thing is that MiniDSP plays poorly with Raspberry Pi and Volumio, and I likely wouldn't be able to use the USB streaming feature.
-Enjoy the fruits of my labour!
Old stuff:
As the original plan was to put the speakers in the corners, I was originally thinking speaker similar to Murphy corner line arrays, but it seems that my listening position would be possibly too close (around 2m) to the speakers and they would suffer from severe HF losses due to comb filtering. Also flush mounting directly to walls would be impossible, so it would suffer from similar response irregularities as ra7 had with his corner line array.
The first pages of this thread are just speculation what drivers and what type of speaker I'd build. The thing in my mind was a FAST, done with maybe Visaton B80 or Scanspeak 10F/8414 and couple good 8" woofers in D'Appolito configuration with XO around 500Hz. I know that this would pretty much guarantee good results with less tinkering than line arrays.
The picture attached shows room dimensions.
Overall, this thread is for people to weight their input on the topic 🙂
Attachments
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You can certainly go a long ways with a FAST. These are particularily good:
Alpair 12pWeN in a Woden ML-TL with A7.3eN as midTweeter. We started with A7PeN, but prefer the metal cone. You could use any number of midTweeters.
I haven't heard the Visaton, but we have the Scan 10F and while good, the 2 drivers we have used as midTweeters in our FASTs perform better.
I have yet to hear a line array that really grabs me.
dave
Alpair 12pWeN in a Woden ML-TL with A7.3eN as midTweeter. We started with A7PeN, but prefer the metal cone. You could use any number of midTweeters.
I haven't heard the Visaton, but we have the Scan 10F and while good, the 2 drivers we have used as midTweeters in our FASTs perform better.
I have yet to hear a line array that really grabs me.
dave
Looks very nice Dave. What frequency are those crossed? I guess 1st order? Do you have the 8414 version or the 8424 of the 10F?
I haven't really considered the Alpairs, but that would be an easy way to go to 20 kHz without worrying about tweeters. I've mainly been interested in the 8414 at this moment. I know the 8424 version is dearly loved by the people who've used it, but to me it seems 8414 is the smoother of the duo. At least in Troels measurements it was absolutely amazing: 5F8422T01-10F8414G10
The FAST that I made last year with 1st order XO was a very positive surprise, and one of the only speakers so far that I could've happily lived with as everyday listening tool. Although this year with this project I'll likely go with closed enclosure for woofers instead of TL as I have a very potent EQ with the RasPi. That is, if I decide to go with a FAST setup 🙂
Main goal is to get a system that is not limited to only listening to single female vocal or trash metal, but something to play music beautifully from one variety to another. For this to work, I've concluded that I either need:
1) Many small drivers (line array) that could be EQ'd to go to a sensible hearing low limit (30Hz in my case). This would play well into high notes and well into the low notes. Comb filtering is likely to be a major problem with the small room that I have. Major pro is that it's truly full range without any crossover to wreck havoc onto the field.
2) Full range driver crossed around 300-500Hz along with two 6,5-8" woofers. I like the idea of having the woofers have as low cone mass as possible, simply due to inertia on the higher mass drivers. It would make most sense to put these in a D'Appolito configuration and maybe even make separate enclosures for them to minimize the standing wave inside the enclosure.
3) Something else? I know OB speakers are popular, but they would need way more space behind them that I can afford in my room. I'm also not a fan of crossing in the area of sensible hearing in 2-4kHz region, and would much rather cross the speakers over (if necessary) in the phase detection area under it. With 1st order XO and trying to set the speaker cones in similar depth in the baffle, I believe good results can be obtained.
I haven't really considered the Alpairs, but that would be an easy way to go to 20 kHz without worrying about tweeters. I've mainly been interested in the 8414 at this moment. I know the 8424 version is dearly loved by the people who've used it, but to me it seems 8414 is the smoother of the duo. At least in Troels measurements it was absolutely amazing: 5F8422T01-10F8414G10
The FAST that I made last year with 1st order XO was a very positive surprise, and one of the only speakers so far that I could've happily lived with as everyday listening tool. Although this year with this project I'll likely go with closed enclosure for woofers instead of TL as I have a very potent EQ with the RasPi. That is, if I decide to go with a FAST setup 🙂
Main goal is to get a system that is not limited to only listening to single female vocal or trash metal, but something to play music beautifully from one variety to another. For this to work, I've concluded that I either need:
1) Many small drivers (line array) that could be EQ'd to go to a sensible hearing low limit (30Hz in my case). This would play well into high notes and well into the low notes. Comb filtering is likely to be a major problem with the small room that I have. Major pro is that it's truly full range without any crossover to wreck havoc onto the field.
2) Full range driver crossed around 300-500Hz along with two 6,5-8" woofers. I like the idea of having the woofers have as low cone mass as possible, simply due to inertia on the higher mass drivers. It would make most sense to put these in a D'Appolito configuration and maybe even make separate enclosures for them to minimize the standing wave inside the enclosure.
3) Something else? I know OB speakers are popular, but they would need way more space behind them that I can afford in my room. I'm also not a fan of crossing in the area of sensible hearing in 2-4kHz region, and would much rather cross the speakers over (if necessary) in the phase detection area under it. With 1st order XO and trying to set the speaker cones in similar depth in the baffle, I believe good results can be obtained.
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We have the 8424. It is good. As a full-range the 8414 looks like it may well be better.
I doubt the basic character changes and the things drivers like the FF85wKeN, and the tarted up Alpairs (A5.2, A6.2, A7.3) do better will still stand (things you won't find in the measurements). The Scan will catch up a bit, but that makes it pricier than any of those, and it is already more expensive stock that the EnABLed FF85 and A5.2 and about the same prices as the A6.2. At least here in North America.
We have used both 4th order digital XO in Chris' HT receiver and a 1st order PLLXO for the MTMs. XO about 250 Hz. We have 1st pass prototypes for both a 4th order LR and 1st order series specified and parts waiting for assembly. If you already have an extra amp, biamping makes a whole lot of sense.
dave
I doubt the basic character changes and the things drivers like the FF85wKeN, and the tarted up Alpairs (A5.2, A6.2, A7.3) do better will still stand (things you won't find in the measurements). The Scan will catch up a bit, but that makes it pricier than any of those, and it is already more expensive stock that the EnABLed FF85 and A5.2 and about the same prices as the A6.2. At least here in North America.
We have used both 4th order digital XO in Chris' HT receiver and a 1st order PLLXO for the MTMs. XO about 250 Hz. We have 1st pass prototypes for both a 4th order LR and 1st order series specified and parts waiting for assembly. If you already have an extra amp, biamping makes a whole lot of sense.
dave
The cost difference between pairs of Visaton B80, Scanspeak 10F/8414 and Alpair 7.3 is quite small and does not matter with the budget I've reserved for these. I'm more interested in finding the best of the bunch, and thus would be interested in hearing opinions from people who've used these drivers and choosing the best one for me 🙂 If it's a tough call, I'll probably just order two of the winners, burn both pairs in, and decide which one I like the best.
If I'm building a FAST, I'd certainly biamp it, maybe even drive each speaker with a separate amplifier to match the levels perfectly. Crossover would be line-level. The only amp I have currently are a JLH1969 Class-A modules that I'm building with MJ15003 transistors. If they sound good, they will likely drive the full ranges. I don't need much power as I live in an apartment building, and the overall listening level will be quiet.
If I'm building a FAST, I'd certainly biamp it, maybe even drive each speaker with a separate amplifier to match the levels perfectly. Crossover would be line-level. The only amp I have currently are a JLH1969 Class-A modules that I'm building with MJ15003 transistors. If they sound good, they will likely drive the full ranges. I don't need much power as I live in an apartment building, and the overall listening level will be quiet.
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Hello.
Perhaps you fit driver SFR-145-A, in the design of BLH. they sound very cool. BLH drawings have free access to Main page - sonido.hu http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/sfr-145a.pdf http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/diy-sfr145-box.pdf
Perhaps you fit driver SFR-145-A, in the design of BLH. they sound very cool. BLH drawings have free access to Main page - sonido.hu http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/sfr-145a.pdf http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/diy-sfr145-box.pdf
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Did someone say ra7? 🙂
I saw your post in Wesayso's thread but will respond here. If you have control over the walls, i.e., you are building the walls also, there should be no problem with the transition between the drivers and the walls. I had non-parallel mating of the cabinet surface to the wall surface that resulted in small gaps, which caused the reflections. If you can take care of this particular detail, there is no reason why you shouldn't build it in the corner. There are many benefits to the corner location.
In terms of listening distance, yes, this is crucial, but also remember that if you use smaller drivers, you can sit closer together. I would guess that if you halve the driver size, you will push up the comb filtering frequency up on octave. As a minimum, I would recommend sitting at least one array length away.
Wesayso's suggestion of a synergy is a good one. Or last but not the least, you can build a simple two-way with good quality drivers and use distributed subs together with FIR filters. It will sound good.
I saw your post in Wesayso's thread but will respond here. If you have control over the walls, i.e., you are building the walls also, there should be no problem with the transition between the drivers and the walls. I had non-parallel mating of the cabinet surface to the wall surface that resulted in small gaps, which caused the reflections. If you can take care of this particular detail, there is no reason why you shouldn't build it in the corner. There are many benefits to the corner location.
In terms of listening distance, yes, this is crucial, but also remember that if you use smaller drivers, you can sit closer together. I would guess that if you halve the driver size, you will push up the comb filtering frequency up on octave. As a minimum, I would recommend sitting at least one array length away.
Wesayso's suggestion of a synergy is a good one. Or last but not the least, you can build a simple two-way with good quality drivers and use distributed subs together with FIR filters. It will sound good.
None of which is likely as good stock as after i have finished with them (i am making an assumption based on experience on the 1st two not having seen the B80 or treated my 10F)
dave
The synergy horn seems pretty interesting, but seems to suffer (or benefit, how you want to see it) from a quite narrow distribution pattern. Also horns need quite wide enclosures afaik, probably wider than the space can afford so the XO still stays under the most sensitive hearing area.
It seems that I have to skip line arrays for now. Sad, as I really fancy the looks, but probably for the best in such a small room. I can't make changes on the walls as I live on rent. How large were the gaps to cause reflections and how severe were they? I saw your solution in the thread, I would have probably tried to "flush mount" the baffle to the edge of wall by sticking pieces of felt between the speaker and the wall 🙂
In my optimal speakers system, my wife could also listen to music casually whilst sewing or doing handicrafts near the table and later on I could listen critically from my chair in the back. This is part of the reason why I would want to situate the speakers in the corners. If I toed the speakers approximately in the middle of the listening positions, both would get under 30 degree off-axis listening to actually hear some HF.
It seems that I have to skip line arrays for now. Sad, as I really fancy the looks, but probably for the best in such a small room. I can't make changes on the walls as I live on rent. How large were the gaps to cause reflections and how severe were they? I saw your solution in the thread, I would have probably tried to "flush mount" the baffle to the edge of wall by sticking pieces of felt between the speaker and the wall 🙂
In my optimal speakers system, my wife could also listen to music casually whilst sewing or doing handicrafts near the table and later on I could listen critically from my chair in the back. This is part of the reason why I would want to situate the speakers in the corners. If I toed the speakers approximately in the middle of the listening positions, both would get under 30 degree off-axis listening to actually hear some HF.
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Mayuri, have you seen the http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/285030-bookshelf-multi-way-point-source-horn.html thread? An example of a reasonable sized synergy without using compression drivers.
Why do I like arrays? The avoidance of floor and ceiling reflections playing a large role. Move up or down or even left and right and you still get the same sound (not true with most Fast setups, though a D'Appolito could get you there if the crossover is well chosen).
The Synergy avoids side and front wall reflections and is basically a closely packed MTM and has many advantages. In your room it has a better HF potential than the line arrays. The link above shows they can be build to be reasonably compact, but the horn size will determine at what frequency the directivity ends. This one has a lot of plusses as a concept. You could add smaller drivers around it (like 6.5") in an array to get the bass part, lots of em can make up for the size. 😀 Though the Synergy in the Bookshelf thread is capable by itself down to 30 Hz. It might get difficult to get 30 Hz "evenly spreaded" throughout the room with only 2 speakers. Line arrays do that very well i.m.h.o.
Think long and hard in advance, and you only have to build once...
Why do I like arrays? The avoidance of floor and ceiling reflections playing a large role. Move up or down or even left and right and you still get the same sound (not true with most Fast setups, though a D'Appolito could get you there if the crossover is well chosen).
The Synergy avoids side and front wall reflections and is basically a closely packed MTM and has many advantages. In your room it has a better HF potential than the line arrays. The link above shows they can be build to be reasonably compact, but the horn size will determine at what frequency the directivity ends. This one has a lot of plusses as a concept. You could add smaller drivers around it (like 6.5") in an array to get the bass part, lots of em can make up for the size. 😀 Though the Synergy in the Bookshelf thread is capable by itself down to 30 Hz. It might get difficult to get 30 Hz "evenly spreaded" throughout the room with only 2 speakers. Line arrays do that very well i.m.h.o.
Think long and hard in advance, and you only have to build once...
If the crossover is done right, you won't be able to hear it on a synergy horn. Even if it is in the sensitive area.
The horn shape can determine the listening angles. I remember bushmeister mentioning his chosen horn had a pretty small sweet spot. Crossing in front of your (critical) listening spot can be beneficial and make for a larger sweet spot. No problem there.
As ra7 mentioned, find the right driver and you could still do line arrays, just use smaller ones (and many of them). You'd probably need subs though.
I am on a quest this year to make a wood encased semi-permanent reference 3-way passive speaker. Of course you could do it actively with DSP XO's and multi amps. One way to do a 3 way with 2-way active is to make the tweeter/mid passive and do the active DSP XO for the woofer and mid/tweet.
Anyhow, I have been on an amp building binge lately and need a passive speaker to listen and discern the differences in the amps. So the speaker needs to be neutral and have range over at least 45Hz to 22kHz.
You might be interested in a similar approach as well for a 3 way transient perfect "hole filler" a la B&O.
I am still in the modeling/sim stage. I have spec'd and procured the drivers, and the cabinet (0.56 cu ft Denovo flat pack). I am designing the waveguides for mid and tweeters now and plan on 3d printing them.
Drivers are:
- Dayton RS28F-4 tweeter
- Visaton B80 mid
- Dayton RS180P-8 woofer
I am thinking of following XO points: 800Hz, 3200Hz
B80 will be first order band pass on both sides, hence needs to go as low as 200Hz and as high as 12800Hz
RS28F will be second order
RS180P will be second order
All will be positive polarity and for me, mechanical offset via waveguides or just stepped baffles will be used for time alignment.
When I have more info I will start a new thread. It should be fairly compact though - more than enough for a small apartment.
But if you are set on full range - I would go with 10F/8424 or 8414 (both are fine), and would go with a FAST with SB23NRXS45-8 woofers. 600Hz Harsch XO, or the fancy FIR convolution stuff Byrtt and Wesayso like to do.
If you like clear as bell highs, the SB65WBAC25-4 might surprise you as a FAST top. Kind of low sensitivity - but put in a FLH and might be perfect.
Anyhow, I have been on an amp building binge lately and need a passive speaker to listen and discern the differences in the amps. So the speaker needs to be neutral and have range over at least 45Hz to 22kHz.
You might be interested in a similar approach as well for a 3 way transient perfect "hole filler" a la B&O.
I am still in the modeling/sim stage. I have spec'd and procured the drivers, and the cabinet (0.56 cu ft Denovo flat pack). I am designing the waveguides for mid and tweeters now and plan on 3d printing them.
Drivers are:
- Dayton RS28F-4 tweeter
- Visaton B80 mid
- Dayton RS180P-8 woofer
I am thinking of following XO points: 800Hz, 3200Hz
B80 will be first order band pass on both sides, hence needs to go as low as 200Hz and as high as 12800Hz
RS28F will be second order
RS180P will be second order
All will be positive polarity and for me, mechanical offset via waveguides or just stepped baffles will be used for time alignment.
When I have more info I will start a new thread. It should be fairly compact though - more than enough for a small apartment.
But if you are set on full range - I would go with 10F/8424 or 8414 (both are fine), and would go with a FAST with SB23NRXS45-8 woofers. 600Hz Harsch XO, or the fancy FIR convolution stuff Byrtt and Wesayso like to do.
If you like clear as bell highs, the SB65WBAC25-4 might surprise you as a FAST top. Kind of low sensitivity - but put in a FLH and might be perfect.
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Another option might be LXmini. I have heard them and they sounded truly fantastic. Small footprint, good-looking. Probably appreciated by your better half 🙂
Or you can do the CBT arrays designed by Keele. Listening distance is less of an issue there because of the use of 1" tweeters. Larger footprint, but curvy, groovy!
Or you can do the CBT arrays designed by Keele. Listening distance is less of an issue there because of the use of 1" tweeters. Larger footprint, but curvy, groovy!
I've been going through the "Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn" thread for the last hours and it seems quite feasible option. This horn is very interesting, I could also get a similar XT1464 horn and modify it OR I could make one out of BB ply on custom measures.
Here are the practical limitations of the project:
1) Speakers will sit in corners and will have a window and a table between them.
2) Room is only 3130x3700.
2) Good SQ should be obtained both in near-field (1m at very wide stereo) and far-field (2,5m at 30 degrees stereo).
3) It is possible to biamp speakers. It is possible to put PLLXO before amps and speaker level filters after them.
4) FIR correction is available, but it's just for the total system from a 2-channel output.
Single full-range without any assist isn't for me. I've tried it, but the distortion on bass level or poor response on quick bass really inhibits it's use as a all-around speaker.
The CBT array is one of the funkiest speakers I've seen. Althought one complaint, too large 🙂
Here are the practical limitations of the project:
1) Speakers will sit in corners and will have a window and a table between them.
2) Room is only 3130x3700.
2) Good SQ should be obtained both in near-field (1m at very wide stereo) and far-field (2,5m at 30 degrees stereo).
3) It is possible to biamp speakers. It is possible to put PLLXO before amps and speaker level filters after them.
4) FIR correction is available, but it's just for the total system from a 2-channel output.
Single full-range without any assist isn't for me. I've tried it, but the distortion on bass level or poor response on quick bass really inhibits it's use as a all-around speaker.
The CBT array is one of the funkiest speakers I've seen. Althought one complaint, too large 🙂
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You can certainly go a long ways with a FAST. These are particularily good:
Alpair 12pWeN in a Woden ML-TL with A7.3eN as midTweeter. We started with A7PeN, but prefer the metal cone. You could use any number of midTweeters.
dave
Dave, are there any plans available for those?
Can't find anything.
They look like they would work for a buddy of mine. He's looking into a bit more oomph than a single fullranger, as he likes anything from jazz to light techno. And he likes to crank them from time to time...
Thanks.
Yes. For now they can be had with a subscription to either the A7x or A12x planets.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...10-hifi-minionken-plan-set-subscriptions.html
dave
The bookshelf mulitiway point source horn is certainly a good choice. It is more complicated than some speakers but well worth it.
I can certainly see the complication, so many moving parts that need to fit together 🙂
I'm not scared of a big build (original idea was line arrays), but the problem is that I have absolutely 0 experience with horns. I have never even heard a horn loaded loudspeaker with my own ears. I read through the thread, and I have lots of technical nitpicks now on my mind, but not a general idea. Would something like this be feasible?
Corner Synergy horn with round or elliptical waveguide made out of plywood (I can get CNC'd ply from a local carpenter). Baffle can be very wide, up to about 70-80cm width. Depth is directly relative to width as these are corner enclosures, but with 70cm width the maximum depth of horn is only about 30cm. The XT1464 horn isn't any deeper, so it could work. I'm literally swinging blind with these, I have no idea if that would actually work 😀
The drivers I'll likely order from loudspeakerfreaks. They got the SB 2,5" full range on stock, but I can nab any other driver as well. Maybe Visaton B80, 10F/8414 or something else would do the trick? I have no idea what kind of parameters are important for horns. I think the maximum size for woofers is 8", but if you have good ideas on how to get nice solid bass down to 30Hz, I'm all ears. Listening height will be about 120cm, so the speaker can be either on stands or floorstanding.
Idea is something that looks like these, but as a round synergy horn, fitted on a corner enclosure:
I'm actually getting really excited about these horns. It would help with the room reflections for mid- and high range a lot, and would still put both me and the missus in the about 60 degree sweet spot (on the other edges though). Less acoustic panels, and I can tame the possible peaks and dips in horns & LF room modes with FIR EQ.
I'm not scared of a big build (original idea was line arrays), but the problem is that I have absolutely 0 experience with horns. I have never even heard a horn loaded loudspeaker with my own ears. I read through the thread, and I have lots of technical nitpicks now on my mind, but not a general idea. Would something like this be feasible?
Corner Synergy horn with round or elliptical waveguide made out of plywood (I can get CNC'd ply from a local carpenter). Baffle can be very wide, up to about 70-80cm width. Depth is directly relative to width as these are corner enclosures, but with 70cm width the maximum depth of horn is only about 30cm. The XT1464 horn isn't any deeper, so it could work. I'm literally swinging blind with these, I have no idea if that would actually work 😀
The drivers I'll likely order from loudspeakerfreaks. They got the SB 2,5" full range on stock, but I can nab any other driver as well. Maybe Visaton B80, 10F/8414 or something else would do the trick? I have no idea what kind of parameters are important for horns. I think the maximum size for woofers is 8", but if you have good ideas on how to get nice solid bass down to 30Hz, I'm all ears. Listening height will be about 120cm, so the speaker can be either on stands or floorstanding.
Idea is something that looks like these, but as a round synergy horn, fitted on a corner enclosure:
I'm actually getting really excited about these horns. It would help with the room reflections for mid- and high range a lot, and would still put both me and the missus in the about 60 degree sweet spot (on the other edges though). Less acoustic panels, and I can tame the possible peaks and dips in horns & LF room modes with FIR EQ.
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If you have horn profiles, it's not so blind - as we can model it all up front - as I did for the bookshelf horns. The XT1464 is a good one and confirmed to work. I even have the profile and model for it. I would suggest sticking with the SB65WBAC driver for the mid/tweet though and another 8in woofer can be used - and easily included in the model. Shoot the T/S specs of a woofer you have in mind and I will see what I can come up with.
The other horns to consider are the rectangular waveguides like the JBL and others as discussed in that thread. Several people bought the waveguides and were going to test or try it out but I have not heard much since. The nice thing with rectangular waveguides is there is a flat wall to mount the woofer.
The other horns to consider are the rectangular waveguides like the JBL and others as discussed in that thread. Several people bought the waveguides and were going to test or try it out but I have not heard much since. The nice thing with rectangular waveguides is there is a flat wall to mount the woofer.
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