High end, High fidelity or Audiophile terms are just product of misinformation wars, that were created in the WW2 to manipulate reality and build national sentiment and morale to recruit soldiers and win wars, and this has expanded from politics to create an eternal voting ping-pong and to advertising creating an eternal consumer toddler. An the audio consumer segment is probably one of the most filled with pseudoscience and misleading, without showing real data of the products.
We watch attractive adverts with speaker cabinets and electronics with good picture presentation and supposed great technology, we want to own them like retards, me included today as I can fall for it so easily.
So let's talk about real facts about sound science and the most critical factor in sound transmission is efficiency and this is a problem with speakers because no matter how good the audio format, bitrate, bit depth, DAC, amplifier, speaker cone, enclosure is, we burn 99% of the sound and the speaker transforms only 1% from energy to sound, lets say with a 8ohm speaker at 92db sensibility, and this is what matters most.
So with a 3db increase at 95db we have a 2% efficient speaker and if we increase the sensibility to 131db that speaker is 13% and we can play the sound low and hear most of the sound details with an mp3, flac, DVD-A or DTS-MA.
The ways to accomplish speaker efficiency is with speaker sensibility and area, Xmax, horns and enclosure type and volume while electronic efficiency is made with gain structure and also by removing passive crossovers and using class D,T, etc amps with 90-100% efficiency. However the most noticeable methods for speaker db increase are horns and gain structure.
In my case i use gain structure with Foobar at minimum while windows preamp and amp at maximum, reducing amp volume and raising foobar to reduce noise at low volume, however i can use any small speaker very loud without cone excursion or play loud a big subwoofer with a 25w class-D amp board
By reducing the source volume I am supposed to eat bit rate and bit depth, but the music gains richness so when i use a common setup with amp+speaker with amp at low volume it sounds poor whatever the "quality" of the components.
The main drawback of this gain structure is that i can blow the speaker if i raise the foobar volume or windows play any sound suddenly. There's a notable difference by using DVD-A instead flac in Foobar and i can raise the volume and the richness of the sound and low distortion its quite noticeable, the same with dts-ma.
We watch attractive adverts with speaker cabinets and electronics with good picture presentation and supposed great technology, we want to own them like retards, me included today as I can fall for it so easily.
So let's talk about real facts about sound science and the most critical factor in sound transmission is efficiency and this is a problem with speakers because no matter how good the audio format, bitrate, bit depth, DAC, amplifier, speaker cone, enclosure is, we burn 99% of the sound and the speaker transforms only 1% from energy to sound, lets say with a 8ohm speaker at 92db sensibility, and this is what matters most.
So with a 3db increase at 95db we have a 2% efficient speaker and if we increase the sensibility to 131db that speaker is 13% and we can play the sound low and hear most of the sound details with an mp3, flac, DVD-A or DTS-MA.
The ways to accomplish speaker efficiency is with speaker sensibility and area, Xmax, horns and enclosure type and volume while electronic efficiency is made with gain structure and also by removing passive crossovers and using class D,T, etc amps with 90-100% efficiency. However the most noticeable methods for speaker db increase are horns and gain structure.
In my case i use gain structure with Foobar at minimum while windows preamp and amp at maximum, reducing amp volume and raising foobar to reduce noise at low volume, however i can use any small speaker very loud without cone excursion or play loud a big subwoofer with a 25w class-D amp board
By reducing the source volume I am supposed to eat bit rate and bit depth, but the music gains richness so when i use a common setup with amp+speaker with amp at low volume it sounds poor whatever the "quality" of the components.
The main drawback of this gain structure is that i can blow the speaker if i raise the foobar volume or windows play any sound suddenly. There's a notable difference by using DVD-A instead flac in Foobar and i can raise the volume and the richness of the sound and low distortion its quite noticeable, the same with dts-ma.
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When you reduce volume with DSP, yes you by definition reduce resolution you can't regain by amplification. But if amplifier gain is set for rated @ the nominal input, then when you reduce volume digitally, what you lose you can't hear so all is good.
Using DSP for eq has it's issues. If you boost, you have to either compress, limit, or lower the volume as you can't go over zero gain. My rule is to only cut using DSP. I regain the volume with amplification.
Efficiency is moot unless running off battery power. With class D amps, we can build enough power for a stadium PA you can lift. They are getting quite good. We can build affordable, just barely, AB amps bigger than anyone needs in their home. So 86dB direct radiators, or 96dB PA speakers in horns does not matter unless doing a PA. Sure, build a KleinHorn and a 2W class D if you must. I don't nave to listen to it.
Fancy pictures you copied from somewhere of excessive marketing ego, maybe the worst speaker design ever and someone's proof of concept test box. What was your point?
Using DSP for eq has it's issues. If you boost, you have to either compress, limit, or lower the volume as you can't go over zero gain. My rule is to only cut using DSP. I regain the volume with amplification.
Efficiency is moot unless running off battery power. With class D amps, we can build enough power for a stadium PA you can lift. They are getting quite good. We can build affordable, just barely, AB amps bigger than anyone needs in their home. So 86dB direct radiators, or 96dB PA speakers in horns does not matter unless doing a PA. Sure, build a KleinHorn and a 2W class D if you must. I don't nave to listen to it.
Fancy pictures you copied from somewhere of excessive marketing ego, maybe the worst speaker design ever and someone's proof of concept test box. What was your point?
It's a mystery. But i rather enjoyed the sense of righteous indignation in his post.
I want to keep the topic of the thread, the point is that no matter the electronics or speaker setup, if you use simple gain structure or cardboard horn to transform a 89db Bluetooth speaker from 1% efficiency to 13% with 131db output, at the same decibel output the sound will be rich and lively, because actually most of the sound is gone with a common 1% efficiency speaker setup.
bits volume level vs gain structure or amp volume? snake oil vs final speaker efficiency?
bits volume level vs gain structure or amp volume? snake oil vs final speaker efficiency?
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131 dB? No wonder you can listen to a cardboard box.
If you go back to I think 1956 and read the ASE paper from Paul Klipsch, you will understand the relationship between efficiency and distortion. Unfortunately horns bring with them too many compromises for high fidelity.
When we can you a PS5 ( $350) for an apartment power amp and a Benchmark ( $3000) or March ($800) for our home, it makes the need for efficiency irreverent. We can focus on the many myriad of other parameters.
Rather than lubricating legless reptiles, I go out in my yard and whoop three times on one leg so they stay away. It must work as I have no squeaky snakes in my stereo.
If you go back to I think 1956 and read the ASE paper from Paul Klipsch, you will understand the relationship between efficiency and distortion. Unfortunately horns bring with them too many compromises for high fidelity.
When we can you a PS5 ( $350) for an apartment power amp and a Benchmark ( $3000) or March ($800) for our home, it makes the need for efficiency irreverent. We can focus on the many myriad of other parameters.
Rather than lubricating legless reptiles, I go out in my yard and whoop three times on one leg so they stay away. It must work as I have no squeaky snakes in my stereo.
Again I want to maintain the topic instead making an argument escalation quoting marketing misinformation and playing their game.
the speaker cone is like an instrument, and the more efficient, the more detailed sound performance will have and also a full volume amplifier sounds richer. there are different horn designs that work whatever the baffle established marketing, however i'm talking mostly about using gain structure to create a 20% efficient baffle speaker setup.
and most important, if any of the commenters haven't made gain structure with their setup after reading this, the talk is hopeless because it will be basically denying or denial talk trying to censor other opinions instead being eager to experiment and test results by themselves.
the speaker cone is like an instrument, and the more efficient, the more detailed sound performance will have and also a full volume amplifier sounds richer. there are different horn designs that work whatever the baffle established marketing, however i'm talking mostly about using gain structure to create a 20% efficient baffle speaker setup.
and most important, if any of the commenters haven't made gain structure with their setup after reading this, the talk is hopeless because it will be basically denying or denial talk trying to censor other opinions instead being eager to experiment and test results by themselves.
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Well, to make a coherent argument, you had better check your physics as your premise above is incorrect. If you try to fool mother nature by making up your own rules you will loose every time.
Do you have any idea what they term you keep using "grain structure" actually means? Are you actually talking about driver coupling and directivity?
I have been building speakers for 40 years. I do have some experience. Again, I suggest reading the AES papers so you understand what real engineers know about the subject. We actually had a good idea about the problems and needs by the mid 50's, just still are limited by materials and physics in achieving it. Not a sales pitch, but I have all four volumes of the AES papers on loudspeakers I would be willing to sell to an interested party. I will probably be listing them and the rest of my books in the marketplace when I get around to it. Oh, also go read the papers by Dr. Geedes. You may find support for you premise based on facts.
Do you have any idea what they term you keep using "grain structure" actually means? Are you actually talking about driver coupling and directivity?
I have been building speakers for 40 years. I do have some experience. Again, I suggest reading the AES papers so you understand what real engineers know about the subject. We actually had a good idea about the problems and needs by the mid 50's, just still are limited by materials and physics in achieving it. Not a sales pitch, but I have all four volumes of the AES papers on loudspeakers I would be willing to sell to an interested party. I will probably be listing them and the rest of my books in the marketplace when I get around to it. Oh, also go read the papers by Dr. Geedes. You may find support for you premise based on facts.
let's compare these two setups at moderate room decibel level
1% speaker efficiency setup with wilson audio speakers with macintosh cd player and 300w AB amplifier 50% efficient .
cd player volume: doenst have volume
amplifier volume:40%
the sound is poor, the amplifying efficiency is 20% and you hear only 40% of the amplifier with a 1% speaker efficiency and the bass drivers approach excursion limits
20% speaker efficiency setup with dayton audio speakers, soundcard, random preamp and 50w class-T amp 95% efficient:
foobar volume: low
soundcard volume: 100%
preamp volume: 100%
amp volume: 100%
the sound is detailed, or rich, or whatever, it has more body, it changes. you hear all the amplifier potential with almost 100% of amplification efficiency and the speaker driver that was 1% efficient now has 20% efficiency and produces detailed sound with minimal excursion and distortion.
that's why sound engineers use gain structure in opera, concerts, studios, etc
1% speaker efficiency setup with wilson audio speakers with macintosh cd player and 300w AB amplifier 50% efficient .
cd player volume: doenst have volume
amplifier volume:40%
the sound is poor, the amplifying efficiency is 20% and you hear only 40% of the amplifier with a 1% speaker efficiency and the bass drivers approach excursion limits
20% speaker efficiency setup with dayton audio speakers, soundcard, random preamp and 50w class-T amp 95% efficient:
foobar volume: low
soundcard volume: 100%
preamp volume: 100%
amp volume: 100%
the sound is detailed, or rich, or whatever, it has more body, it changes. you hear all the amplifier potential with almost 100% of amplification efficiency and the speaker driver that was 1% efficient now has 20% efficiency and produces detailed sound with minimal excursion and distortion.
that's why sound engineers use gain structure in opera, concerts, studios, etc
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i'm sure you would be talking about sound richness or whatever vacuous point if you were talking about your amp, and speakers.
do you know what a ear is? because this is more about hearing than equations and you haven't tested this gain structure in this hour, and you haven't done it in your "100 years experience". if you are not interested in the matter but to win an argument you can leave the thread.
no need to play dirty trying to undermine this topic of conversation that goes against what you have been told and done in your entire life. you are not even a sound engineer but rather a follower of fake audio-experts that parasite the home audio business with their accepted pseudoscience crusades, all defending their old castle of cards
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This, and this from OP
Richness, efficiency...
Since we are talking about Home audio, let me make some points - tvrgeek already helped, excluding horns!!
OK, another intro : since all speaker systems (limiting the matter to speakers does make injustice to hifi but let's talk about...speakers!!!) do not take into account the isolation from vibration problem, they are all flawed.
So let's talk about the perfect speaker for 20-20000 and sufficient wattage from the Amp - 20,30 W is enough -
I won't talk about why 3 ways is perfect number, same as 2 channels is good-no more, nor less, but the efficiency of a 3 way is always more than a 2 way, given the fact that all speakers work in their pass band.
Richness, detail, accuracy, etc etc etc all depend on the implementation of the speaker system. At this point, talking about the perfect speakers is meaningless if we don't feed 'em with perfect signal. Ok, suppose that we have perfect source, perfect cables, perfect amplification, you send the signal to the speakers and you find a big problem : woofers send the same signal backwards!!!
Now, OP discourse is plausible : how the hell it's done in 50 years to resolve this problem? You build a wooden enclosure to contain the backwave.
Now, the movement of the cone is limited by the internal pressure.
ALERT: another communication problem
STATIONARY waves inside a speaker? Is that a joke?!
So waves.. Very long waves... and we need just the forward radiation, being the backward one an error signal, and not little, but 100% error!
So we find a light paper cone that is supposed to stop the pressure from behind, but it leaks... Somehow..
Nowadays luckily we have the most high performance speakers at our disposal, but still many errors-fatal ones! - are still made (such as... measure the sound?!?)
afk, you started off on the wrong foot. Speaker efficiency is pretty much irrelevant. If you can build a 'better' speaker (sound quality) by lowering the efficiency, do it! Just up the amplifier power to compensate and you're done!
Your use of 'richness' is problematic because this is not a clearly defined term. Readers can all have their own understanding of what it means, it can all be different and that doesn't help to have a meaningful discussion.
Try to define it in terms we all can understand, for instance in terms of frequency response.
Jan
Your use of 'richness' is problematic because this is not a clearly defined term. Readers can all have their own understanding of what it means, it can all be different and that doesn't help to have a meaningful discussion.
Try to define it in terms we all can understand, for instance in terms of frequency response.
Jan
Hi,
By messing with (non optimal) gain structure you might induce distortion which will bring 'richness' ( increase details you'll hear) to the sound.
And i'm not against horn use ( even if like Tvrgeek i doubt a cardboard horn will do 130dbspl ( @ which frequency or over which freq range?) without inducing it's own issues ( coloration) to the sound) .
Measurements could give you hint of what happen.
By messing with (non optimal) gain structure you might induce distortion which will bring 'richness' ( increase details you'll hear) to the sound.
And i'm not against horn use ( even if like Tvrgeek i doubt a cardboard horn will do 130dbspl ( @ which frequency or over which freq range?) without inducing it's own issues ( coloration) to the sound) .
Measurements could give you hint of what happen.
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I had the same thinking about why the back sound is wasted and apparently the more volume and fat bass reflex you use in the enclosure the louder, the more bass and the less distortion has the speaker and this also applies to software where you can see how the frequency curve changes.
if you use a back horn you can gain some decibels of sensibility, however the same reasoning would be, why not making a Compound horn with front and back horns that would be more efficient and apparently the most decibels i get with hornresp for bass-subs is offset horn of several meters long (8 meters of thin horn) and plenty of enclosure volume with bass reflex, instead Compound Horn or Tapped Horn.
so apparently the pressure generated inside the enclosure chamber is like an air sound amplifier for the front wave, however that doesn't apply to the little boxes sold today that waste the speaker potential forcing frequencies with inefficient crossover and bulky amplifiers
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the main task of sound engineers is gain structure, and i didn't know about it, just one day talking with a sound engineer he told me they do everywhere the same i was trying to do without factual knowledge.
gain structure is about signal hissing noise vs distortion. if i use foobar at low volume and set the windows, preamp and amp to 100% i get a hissing noise while watching movies, so i reduce amp sound to maybe 70% and increase foobar volume
the more the foobar volume the more distortion i get, even if its supposed to have more bits and depth, and the lower the amplifier volume the emptier the sound.
i notice music and speaker distortion and the music sounds that change with the gain structure playing with the volumes without using EQ, that's what i refer to richness.
and for example with dvd audio in foobar i can put the volume up and i can listen the music loud without distortion, i also i try to reduce the 80hz to reduce bass sickness and also ear fatigue, that is caused also by using mp3
mp3 will sound louder, while a flac will sound lower and a dvd-audio even lower, so you can raise the volume with dvd-audio and the sound is incredible compared to the crap noise you can get in a disco, i suppose this "trick" works with any speaker or amplifier.
with windows i mean master volume that is done by soundblaster card
gain structure is about signal hissing noise vs distortion. if i use foobar at low volume and set the windows, preamp and amp to 100% i get a hissing noise while watching movies, so i reduce amp sound to maybe 70% and increase foobar volume
the more the foobar volume the more distortion i get, even if its supposed to have more bits and depth, and the lower the amplifier volume the emptier the sound.
i notice music and speaker distortion and the music sounds that change with the gain structure playing with the volumes without using EQ, that's what i refer to richness.
and for example with dvd audio in foobar i can put the volume up and i can listen the music loud without distortion, i also i try to reduce the 80hz to reduce bass sickness and also ear fatigue, that is caused also by using mp3
mp3 will sound louder, while a flac will sound lower and a dvd-audio even lower, so you can raise the volume with dvd-audio and the sound is incredible compared to the crap noise you can get in a disco, i suppose this "trick" works with any speaker or amplifier.
with windows i mean master volume that is done by soundblaster card
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^ Your understanding of gain structure is right but i think your conclusions are not ( there is a nice article about gain structure Pano wrote some years ago, check the article section of forum -if it was kept during the xf migration) .
Edit: it is still there: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/what-is-gain-structure.186018/
I'm pretty sure you have an issue with windows messing your digital signal path ( it is a common issue with windows and why serious digital system running on windows ( studio gear) bypass it by using ASIO drivers or dedicated propietary soundcards).
Edit: it is still there: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/what-is-gain-structure.186018/
I'm pretty sure you have an issue with windows messing your digital signal path ( it is a common issue with windows and why serious digital system running on windows ( studio gear) bypass it by using ASIO drivers or dedicated propietary soundcards).
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