I am afraid that DIY was never a threat for comercial speakers(finansialy) after 1975 or so. If we start same thread on Audiogon we will see how diferent opions will be- oposite to DIYaudio forum. We are all biased and passionable . Which is not nessesary bad thing. Just like love to a womans. The problem arrives when we so much believe in the ones we love that sign our wifes to national boxing championships/ competitions. When there are unbiased judges results probably is not we hoped to be.
Maybe this thread should differentiate between the different DIYS builds.
If we take amplifier for example, a so called DIYS will challenge the best commercial builds there are. As the DIYS person does exactly the same the commercial builder does, the result will only differ in optics and price. If you get the wires right.
Of course, the builder has to do his homework. There are many perfect amps in the gallery, a broad middle class and quite some done by untalented and incapable weirdos. The kind of guy that always answers: "so what, it works".
So basically DIYS audio is amps and speakers. We may have a look at the other options:
There are some that even build record player, but this a minority of a minority. Also, most use comon parts, like tone arms.
CD player are another field, "builds" are modifications of mass produced units, which is quite the same many high end, high priced CD player are. Under the hood are industrial modules, sometimes refined (or spoiled) by a DIYS power supply or output stages. The CD is such a reliable thing, it is hard to screw it up, even if you try very hard 🙂
Streamer build DIYS are quite the same: Industial parts combined, put in a case and topped up with a software anyone can get.
I will make the list short, as most DIYS DAC's, DSP's and other kind are just modules build inside a case, wired up more or less well.
So start and end of the list are speakers.
Maybe we should have a look inside a 1000-2000$ pair build commercially. If we do, we are surprised how primitive most are. Nothing special to be found.
Some here seem to believe in some magic that can only happen in commercial lab's of expensive brands. Which is pure nonsense and shows lack of knowledge about the physics involved. They would be very surprised how primitive some well known manufacturers "develop" speaker and what priorities are set. A hint: Best sound quality is not a priority.
More than 20 years ago there were some "industry only" measurement gear and simul.ation software. Today the tools are just the same for anyone. The magic can happen anywhere, because the math behind it is no secret any more.
What may be a surprise, not anyone who calls himself a speaker manufacturer has a Klippel, even as some are in private hands.
We see many developer that simply, one day, decided to be able to build speaker. Some are, some... guess. Not anyone has a solid education behind his back. You will, in most cases, be commercialy more succesfull with a large tank of snake oil and a talent for spontaneous lies, than someone with a solid university degree and practice in the industry.
There is nothing magic about any speaker. Just more or less evolved science and knowledge.
DIYS will not build some absurdities like self measuring multi chassis computers with sound output, too complicated to be set up by the personal in the brands flagship stores (Hello Dynaudio!). Which are just science and engineering driven to the last edge.
What DIYS can do is building a good speaker. Which is quite simple. Choose some chassis matching in quality and area of application, build a cabinet that supports them and finish off with the right parts in the crossover. Done.
As in DIYS you do not have to adjust the quality of reproduction to some commercial line up, you can build even better speaker from the same parts.
In a speaker brands program, the sound quality has to increase with the price tag. That may be the problem of commercial builds. Some brands have started with surprisingly good, small and cheap speakers. Ask youself why the big dogs could not do that. Simply, because they don't want to.
The one, major problem with DIYS are individuals who have no clue how to develop a speaker, but decide to do so. This forum has quite some examples running, at any time. In most cases they simply end without a result.
The opposite, is quite rare, but still can be found. Mostly people that have started years ago and accumulated knowledge, often by learning from own mistakes.
In general, if you simply want a better speaker than you can afford finished and can invest some work, you should stick to proven builds with solid plans and guaranteed end result. If you concentrate on the manual part of work, DIYS is still very rewarding.
If DIYS is driven by a need for recognition and overestimation of oneself, it is a wast of money and time.
If we take amplifier for example, a so called DIYS will challenge the best commercial builds there are. As the DIYS person does exactly the same the commercial builder does, the result will only differ in optics and price. If you get the wires right.
Of course, the builder has to do his homework. There are many perfect amps in the gallery, a broad middle class and quite some done by untalented and incapable weirdos. The kind of guy that always answers: "so what, it works".
So basically DIYS audio is amps and speakers. We may have a look at the other options:
There are some that even build record player, but this a minority of a minority. Also, most use comon parts, like tone arms.
CD player are another field, "builds" are modifications of mass produced units, which is quite the same many high end, high priced CD player are. Under the hood are industrial modules, sometimes refined (or spoiled) by a DIYS power supply or output stages. The CD is such a reliable thing, it is hard to screw it up, even if you try very hard 🙂
Streamer build DIYS are quite the same: Industial parts combined, put in a case and topped up with a software anyone can get.
I will make the list short, as most DIYS DAC's, DSP's and other kind are just modules build inside a case, wired up more or less well.
So start and end of the list are speakers.
Maybe we should have a look inside a 1000-2000$ pair build commercially. If we do, we are surprised how primitive most are. Nothing special to be found.
Some here seem to believe in some magic that can only happen in commercial lab's of expensive brands. Which is pure nonsense and shows lack of knowledge about the physics involved. They would be very surprised how primitive some well known manufacturers "develop" speaker and what priorities are set. A hint: Best sound quality is not a priority.
More than 20 years ago there were some "industry only" measurement gear and simul.ation software. Today the tools are just the same for anyone. The magic can happen anywhere, because the math behind it is no secret any more.
What may be a surprise, not anyone who calls himself a speaker manufacturer has a Klippel, even as some are in private hands.
We see many developer that simply, one day, decided to be able to build speaker. Some are, some... guess. Not anyone has a solid education behind his back. You will, in most cases, be commercialy more succesfull with a large tank of snake oil and a talent for spontaneous lies, than someone with a solid university degree and practice in the industry.
There is nothing magic about any speaker. Just more or less evolved science and knowledge.
DIYS will not build some absurdities like self measuring multi chassis computers with sound output, too complicated to be set up by the personal in the brands flagship stores (Hello Dynaudio!). Which are just science and engineering driven to the last edge.
What DIYS can do is building a good speaker. Which is quite simple. Choose some chassis matching in quality and area of application, build a cabinet that supports them and finish off with the right parts in the crossover. Done.
As in DIYS you do not have to adjust the quality of reproduction to some commercial line up, you can build even better speaker from the same parts.
In a speaker brands program, the sound quality has to increase with the price tag. That may be the problem of commercial builds. Some brands have started with surprisingly good, small and cheap speakers. Ask youself why the big dogs could not do that. Simply, because they don't want to.
The one, major problem with DIYS are individuals who have no clue how to develop a speaker, but decide to do so. This forum has quite some examples running, at any time. In most cases they simply end without a result.
The opposite, is quite rare, but still can be found. Mostly people that have started years ago and accumulated knowledge, often by learning from own mistakes.
In general, if you simply want a better speaker than you can afford finished and can invest some work, you should stick to proven builds with solid plans and guaranteed end result. If you concentrate on the manual part of work, DIYS is still very rewarding.
If DIYS is driven by a need for recognition and overestimation of oneself, it is a wast of money and time.
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Correct, and it only proves that marketing is the key to financial success. Product itself can be anything between rubbish and true high quality.
Hi Rob,
An unseasonal heat wave has resulted in re prioritising time.
Some progress has been made on the diy front last night. There were l few subjective things that l felt weren’t right. The vertical dispersion was not as uniform as it should be and it sounded like a phase issue was present.
In line with making sense of a new diy loudspeaker l decided to validate what l thought l was hearing.
1. Using DATS3 l measured the impedance of both left and right systems. For some weird reason they didn’t quite match up.
A. So then looked at the woofer only impedance The were a little different in the impedance peaks and l saw some resonances in the 200-400 hertz region.
B. I removed the ports and cut both to tune the same as the S4700. 32 hertz in 140L. O e test enclosure has two ports so l blocked one so they both have a single 4.2 inch I’d port 3.6 inches long.
C. I then un solder the largest of iron E core inductors l has adjusted and found the left channel was 20% higher than the specified value. I re checked the right channel.
D. I also checked the woofer polarity and found both woofers moved out with positive 9v DC on the positive red terminal.
E. I then recalled l had wired the left channel in reverse electrical phase because it was audibly out of phase. But why ?
So l check the rear loudspeaker terminals. They were correct. Then the oh shoot moment. A small toggle switch that implements bridged mode was in the On position while the amp was connected with L & R inputs and L&R outputs. I flicked the switch to stereo.
F. I placed both enclosures on dolly carts to make movement easier.
2. The result was a significant transformation in the subjective outcome .
The bass was far more balanced and defined at the listening position. On music l think this is a goo tuning. The vertical dispersion was now opened up and there was more apparent upper midrange clarity and a more obvious top end. I think the prior bass l was hearing was masking the upper midrange and highs.
The system was subjectively more opened up in comparison to these changes.
I will now measure the system and look at the horn EQ in more detail to match the room.
I think the significance of this for anyone is to always check everything. Small gremlins can wreak havoc. Clear validation with some testing can reveal problems deep down in the works that you didn’t know existed.
Completely agree. I just had a friend having polarity issues and would you believe that it worked out to be a miss wire in a balanced factory cable!
And with me when I built my cabinets I went through many slow high power sweeps looking for buzzes after construction and after vernier. So a couple months down the road I had a very frequency specific buzz.
Was like oh no! Well after looking it ended up being that the screw hold downs on one of the 5 way binding post wasn't snugged down on the offending speaker.
Good advice! So yeah check everything you never know!
Rob 🙂
Hi Elviukai,
I enjoyed your very thoughtful and constructive post. Everything you have written l can relate to. It helps bring closure to the question this thread is about.
The time you put into your response is much appreciated.
Ian
I enjoyed your very thoughtful and constructive post. Everything you have written l can relate to. It helps bring closure to the question this thread is about.
The time you put into your response is much appreciated.
Ian
Just speaking for myself, but I don't try to beat high-end systems. I just try to improve on what I had before.
I started with a pair of Q acoustics bookshelf speakers and an Audio Engine subwoofer. The total price was £1000 for the speakers alone.
Since then I've replaced all my speakers with home builds. I'm fairly sure it's an improvement.
I started with a pair of Q acoustics bookshelf speakers and an Audio Engine subwoofer. The total price was £1000 for the speakers alone.
Since then I've replaced all my speakers with home builds. I'm fairly sure it's an improvement.
Hi Rob,
I’ve quoted your post because this type of thing can literally happen to anyone.
In the event the diy builder accepts the initial outcome as lower than expectations he/she may choose a different alternative without understanding without ever realising what was causing the problem?
The more complex the build the more likely this type of situation can occur. This is why l
believe building a pre determined design or a clone that is relatively straightforward as a first time project is a good idea.
I agree it can cost time and effort. But this is where the challenge and the journey is with diy. Just do a bit each weekend!
For example the initial diy project for a beginner could be a simple full range driver like this with a sub to fill out the bass.
I am using this driver because it illustrates the possibilities in the diy space. Everyone wins with this simple design. It suits small diy amps, it’s straight forward to build and it can be evolved over time.
https://www.visaton.de/sites/default/files/dd_product/B 100_1263.pdf
Or a larger 8 inch full range here
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/fullrange-systems/b-200-6-ohm
All the important information is provided like the recommended enclosure
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/fullrange-systems/b-100-6-ohm
Then the project could be enhanced with a super tweeter and a woofer so the full range driver becomes a mid range driver.
This way the diy loudspeaker builder gets to experience and understand the fundamental aspects of loudspeaker building such as efficiency, amplitude and impedance, directivity pattern ect.
For example the initial diy project for a beginner could be a simple full range driver like this with a sub to fill out the bass.
I am using this driver because it illustrates the possibilities in the diy space. Everyone wins with this simple design. It suits small diy amps, it’s straight forward to build and it can be evolved over time.
https://www.visaton.de/sites/default/files/dd_product/B 100_1263.pdf
Or a larger 8 inch full range here
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/fullrange-systems/b-200-6-ohm
All the important information is provided like the recommended enclosure
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/fullrange-systems/b-100-6-ohm
Then the project could be enhanced with a super tweeter and a woofer so the full range driver becomes a mid range driver.
This way the diy loudspeaker builder gets to experience and understand the fundamental aspects of loudspeaker building such as efficiency, amplitude and impedance, directivity pattern ect.
Attachments
I thought these links below were relevant and bring designing diy loudspeakers to life
https://www.parts-express.com/speak...2BCDtmteqUfHM3yWEREbUN2D9qqO2uUGVu5egj97FYpf5
https://www.parts-express.com/speak...2BCDtmteqUfHM3yWEREbUN2D9qqO2uUGVu5egj97FYpf5
The answer to the question depends on the level of DIYer and the company you are comparing to.
A lot of DIY efforts I see in forums miss some key techniques
1. Acoustic offset between drivers
2. off-axis measurements fed into the Crossover simulation software
3. wrong crossover points, not respecting the distortion/waterfall graphs of the drivers
4. Non-resonant and well braced cabinets.
What DIYers generally get right is higher quality drivers and components.
That said, assuming the DIYer has adequate knowledge and is capable of designing as good as the company... then you can get stuff made for a fourth/fifth of the price.
As an example.. the recent galion voyager speakers... they are using OEM version of SB Acoustics SB16PFCR25 and dayton RS28.
In my place making this set costs me about 300$, while importing from the brand and paying customs would cost me 1640$.
A lot of DIY efforts I see in forums miss some key techniques
1. Acoustic offset between drivers
2. off-axis measurements fed into the Crossover simulation software
3. wrong crossover points, not respecting the distortion/waterfall graphs of the drivers
4. Non-resonant and well braced cabinets.
What DIYers generally get right is higher quality drivers and components.
That said, assuming the DIYer has adequate knowledge and is capable of designing as good as the company... then you can get stuff made for a fourth/fifth of the price.
As an example.. the recent galion voyager speakers... they are using OEM version of SB Acoustics SB16PFCR25 and dayton RS28.
In my place making this set costs me about 300$, while importing from the brand and paying customs would cost me 1640$.
I think these are excellent points.
Constrained by my working environment, I've focused on 1 and 4. But I think my diy efforts are so unorthodox/out-of-the-box that most folks won't consider them loudspeakers.
An example LX-configured "Metals" LS50 Meta 1793 coax over Monitor Audio midwoofer from Gold 100 gen4.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/full-range-speaker-photo-gallery.65061/post-7769008
I added back 1uF to HPF for a bit brighter sound (less ruler flat), then confirmed 3-driver aligned acoustic centers (before XO) and aligned phase at 2.7khz (after XO). The result is now pretty transcient perfect, ultra-fi resolution. A tad metallic but all drivers are brand new. The XO basic topology had come from KEF but missing values (HPF 2nd-order; LPF 3rd-order with notch which I skipped). Considering I didn't "do" solder, glue, screw, saw, drill, use mic, simulator, calculator, etc., was this even diy? Or just an audio experiment?
p.s. cost ~$200 plus minimalist XO bits
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Most often? Probably. Seriously good? Not often.
Most people have never really heard what a well recorded CD can sound like. The correlated-noise which goes up and down with the music waveform, and which nobody measures, makes it sound like everything recorded on a CD is being heard when that's not really the case.
As with speakers, building a low-end dac costs more than buying a commercial unit. Making a truly high end dac, say, maybe for $2500-$3,000 worth of parts, and if you know what you're doing, can get up into the class of dacs that sells for more than $10,000. For a high-end, low-volume, audio device, roughly figure a 6x retail markup over the incremental cost of making one complete unit (including the manual, power cord, shipping box, etc.). 60% for the manufacturer, 10% for the distributor (who is responsible for local marketing and promotion, as well as for local warranty service), and 30% for the dealer. Maybe something like that.
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IMO a DAC is a very bad example. I'm not sure there are more professionals that sell DAC's for mega $ and know what they do, than DIYS builder with that same qualification doing the same. Most boils down to power supply, maybe a special clock and the output stage, but the essential part is always some chip made by a major company. There was never a consent which model DAC chip is the best.
I know this no popular opinion, but I find it hard to decide what is responsible for a DAC's better (or different) sound: The digital to analog part or the output driver behind it.
DAC's are a bit like audio cable: If they do nothing really wrong, they are all quite identical. There may be differences, sometimes, yes, but finding differences as huge as between two analog turntable pick up's is practical impossible. If someone tells me to cure a sharp sounding speaker with a special CD player or DAC, I only get curious what brand snake oil he is using, his opinion probably worth nothing.
Exceptions are some DAC's in very cheap CD players or even more often, DVD's. These are the ones which are done wrong or too cheap, often both. Maybe a philosophical question: is a bad design defective or individual creativity? What leads back to DIYS 🙂
You can find very expensive DAC's that sound just like a 25$ USB powered gadget. Some may say the 25$ thingy is even better. This is very slippery ground and not always the best idea to take a clear position if you want to stay friends.
I know this no popular opinion, but I find it hard to decide what is responsible for a DAC's better (or different) sound: The digital to analog part or the output driver behind it.
DAC's are a bit like audio cable: If they do nothing really wrong, they are all quite identical. There may be differences, sometimes, yes, but finding differences as huge as between two analog turntable pick up's is practical impossible. If someone tells me to cure a sharp sounding speaker with a special CD player or DAC, I only get curious what brand snake oil he is using, his opinion probably worth nothing.
Exceptions are some DAC's in very cheap CD players or even more often, DVD's. These are the ones which are done wrong or too cheap, often both. Maybe a philosophical question: is a bad design defective or individual creativity? What leads back to DIYS 🙂
You can find very expensive DAC's that sound just like a 25$ USB powered gadget. Some may say the 25$ thingy is even better. This is very slippery ground and not always the best idea to take a clear position if you want to stay friends.
Not anymore. Various companies are using their own FPGA-based designs, output drivers, etc. Some examples are Bruno Putzeys Mola dacs, Chord dacs. some Marantz CD players, etc.
So? You can also find expensive dacs that are better than cheap dacs.
Probably you could find people who prefer cheap junk speakers to good speakers. If so, what would that prove?
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The thing I wanted to mention, is that DAC's are a very complicated thing to objectively call better or worse. With commercial DAC's just like with DIYS builds. To what kind a DAC belongs is a sometimes blurred, because quite some "professionals" seem to be changing parts only to justify the elevated price tag.
Just an example: If someone known as a valve "Guru" suddenly knows how to build the only musical DAC on earth, there may have been some heavently intervention or simply the financial need to sell something new and expensive to the shrinking customer base, fed up with 4.5 Watt amps.
There is no Klippel you can use to find objective data of a DAC. Most measure just perfect, what ever that may be.
Of course, you can doubt the objectivity of a Klippel system, but most see it as the best option to make speaker output visible.
PS I have found quite some different sounds with a broad collection of DAC's and CD players, which I consider to be a DAC, if the analog out is used.
Most obvious to me is the room information some deliver and some don't. Really bad sound is usually only found with gear that no audiophile would ever touch.
Just an example: If someone known as a valve "Guru" suddenly knows how to build the only musical DAC on earth, there may have been some heavently intervention or simply the financial need to sell something new and expensive to the shrinking customer base, fed up with 4.5 Watt amps.
There is no Klippel you can use to find objective data of a DAC. Most measure just perfect, what ever that may be.
Of course, you can doubt the objectivity of a Klippel system, but most see it as the best option to make speaker output visible.
PS I have found quite some different sounds with a broad collection of DAC's and CD players, which I consider to be a DAC, if the analog out is used.
Most obvious to me is the room information some deliver and some don't. Really bad sound is usually only found with gear that no audiophile would ever touch.
It is true that measuring signal-correlated noise in a meaningful way is difficult. But its there. Easy to hear in the soundcard in my laptop. It sounds like I'm hearing everything in a recording if using headphones. But if I take the same piece of music to my big system with very good speakers, and everything else which is very good, and there is more to hear than was "retrieved" by the laptop dac. However, it isn't really a matter of retrieval. Its more like how much noise is correlated with each instrument sound. It might be 40dB, 60dB, maybe 80dB down, but there is no way to pick it out exactly becaue its always that far below what is being listened to. There is no way to be sure what may be masked beneath that constantly changing noise floor which goes up and down with the music volume level.
That's not all either. I have Benchmark DAC-3. Its sound stage is narrow and forward of the speakers. That's usually a symptom of a jitter problem. OTOH, Topping D90 (original one with AK4499) is wide in the bass, but higher frequencies where vocals reside, and even higher were cymbals are, simply sounds wrong (like some kind of jitter, likely from reclocking in a CPLD). Its easy to hear on good speakers, which in this case are Sound Lab Majestic Series large area ESL panels.
If other people don't hear those kinds of problems, they maybe they should work on speakers first. But eventually, if people check what really good modern dacs sound like, then they may change their opinions about all dacs sounding like old CD players. Its come quite far past that.
That's not all either. I have Benchmark DAC-3. Its sound stage is narrow and forward of the speakers. That's usually a symptom of a jitter problem. OTOH, Topping D90 (original one with AK4499) is wide in the bass, but higher frequencies where vocals reside, and even higher were cymbals are, simply sounds wrong (like some kind of jitter, likely from reclocking in a CPLD). Its easy to hear on good speakers, which in this case are Sound Lab Majestic Series large area ESL panels.
If other people don't hear those kinds of problems, they maybe they should work on speakers first. But eventually, if people check what really good modern dacs sound like, then they may change their opinions about all dacs sounding like old CD players. Its come quite far past that.
You must factor in audiofoolery .
People who pay 3k for a braided power cable to plug into the wall where it connects to 75 cent a foot cable to the main panel.
After years of audio disappointment I built my system to my tastes. Tube preamp , mosfet amp , tone controls, loudness. I like a very smooth but bright sound with tight formidable bass.
Currently s/n at 1 watt is 110db with system plugged straight into the wall.
People who pay 3k for a braided power cable to plug into the wall where it connects to 75 cent a foot cable to the main panel.
After years of audio disappointment I built my system to my tastes. Tube preamp , mosfet amp , tone controls, loudness. I like a very smooth but bright sound with tight formidable bass.
Currently s/n at 1 watt is 110db with system plugged straight into the wall.