Interesting. Would you mind expanding on that a bit; to the extent its possible to differentiate, do you think both the MR and T frequencies of the Scintilla are superior to the Diva’s, or is it for example the integration you prefer?
Forgive me for reviving an old thread, but it is interesting that Apogee Acoustics / Leo Spiegel et al. in the original patent for the full-range ribbon speaker described the MR ribbon driver as affixed at the side edges - instead of top and bottom - to foam strips to prevent acoustic energy from leaking around the ribbon. This is not something I have seen implemented on any Apogee Full-range speaker. I wonder how well this arrangement performs.
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Another option for the mid ribbon would be the XLM2 ribbon.This is a rare lightweight version of the standard kapton backed ribbon which GRAZ rarely makes.I have these ribbons on my Duetta Sigs which I fitted in 2003 and are still going strong.
Other suggestions which might prove usefull are damped granite bases which the speakers are rigidly bolted to the back edge.
Another idea worth considering is improving the edge damping on the bass ribbon by extending the width of the rebates on the clamps.
@apogee lover; hello there, I see you are just down the road from me (Huddersfield). I know one Apogee owner in Sheffield but that’s clearly not you ! I’ll discuss your suggestions with Jon.
What do you use to drive your Duetta Sigs out of interest?
What do you use to drive your Duetta Sigs out of interest?
Hello all – I have been a member for a while, but this is my first post, so please let me know of any breaches of etiquette or protocol for the forum.
This thread is of interest to me since I have owned Apogee Full Ranges since 2015 and have gradually been optimizing them for my purposes.
I depend on my system for a couple of uses. First, I am a part-time classical and acoustic, on location, recording engineer. It is my privilege to record and post-produce Symphoria, The Orchestra of Central New York amongst other smaller ensembles in the area. The approach I use for recording is to capture the sound as accurately as possible in the venue, and in post-production, to retain the integrity of the recording with minimal intervention. That has informed my choices for a playback system. Second of course, I listen–to–learn and enjoy, as much as possible.
Not as ambitious as those of you who have undertaken large physical rebuilds, most of my choices have been around electronics to support the native excellence of the Apogee speakers. Thanks to a custom electronic crossover, the system is now four way. It crosses from W frame sub woofers I built into the bass panels at 125 Hz using LR4 alignment. This has mitigated some of the problems with bass extension and odd resonances from my old bass panels.
Having now eliminated many other reasons for why it might occur, next to address (and my reason for posting) is mid-range accuracy. From my first hearing of Full Ranges in 1983 to the present, I have been aware of an edge that the mid ribbons carry. It may not be a problem for some listeners, but for me, especially with impulse information (piano, female voice, some brass, etc.) the mid ribbons, and to some extent the tweet ribbons, add something they should not. I believe it to be self-resonance.
As a perspective, many years ago Linesource posted that he was aware of the issue and solved the problem by fashioning his own mid, and I think tweets, out of lighter gauge aluminum ribbon. I’m sorry I have not been able to find the post again.
So, to my question, have any of you had experience similar to this? And, since I see that some of you seem to have fabricated your own ribbons, how did you go about it? I don’t see that Graz, in Australia is offering anything but tighter tolerance of the original specification. Sorry for the long first post, and thanks!
This thread is of interest to me since I have owned Apogee Full Ranges since 2015 and have gradually been optimizing them for my purposes.
I depend on my system for a couple of uses. First, I am a part-time classical and acoustic, on location, recording engineer. It is my privilege to record and post-produce Symphoria, The Orchestra of Central New York amongst other smaller ensembles in the area. The approach I use for recording is to capture the sound as accurately as possible in the venue, and in post-production, to retain the integrity of the recording with minimal intervention. That has informed my choices for a playback system. Second of course, I listen–to–learn and enjoy, as much as possible.
Not as ambitious as those of you who have undertaken large physical rebuilds, most of my choices have been around electronics to support the native excellence of the Apogee speakers. Thanks to a custom electronic crossover, the system is now four way. It crosses from W frame sub woofers I built into the bass panels at 125 Hz using LR4 alignment. This has mitigated some of the problems with bass extension and odd resonances from my old bass panels.
Having now eliminated many other reasons for why it might occur, next to address (and my reason for posting) is mid-range accuracy. From my first hearing of Full Ranges in 1983 to the present, I have been aware of an edge that the mid ribbons carry. It may not be a problem for some listeners, but for me, especially with impulse information (piano, female voice, some brass, etc.) the mid ribbons, and to some extent the tweet ribbons, add something they should not. I believe it to be self-resonance.
As a perspective, many years ago Linesource posted that he was aware of the issue and solved the problem by fashioning his own mid, and I think tweets, out of lighter gauge aluminum ribbon. I’m sorry I have not been able to find the post again.
So, to my question, have any of you had experience similar to this? And, since I see that some of you seem to have fabricated your own ribbons, how did you go about it? I don’t see that Graz, in Australia is offering anything but tighter tolerance of the original specification. Sorry for the long first post, and thanks!
Your mid probably lost its original tension and should be retensioned with its specific gram weight back to spec.
I do not know this models gram weight but calling around to installers or Apogee should get you the Info
If you change to a lighter or thinner foil than stock you will increase foil resistance and might need a slight crossover adjustment
Note that if you decide to retension only, it will take 80+ hours to settle back into mechanical relaxation and will sound bright and harsh
at first until it reaches equilibrium
Laying the speakers down horizontal might show you a tension droop or mismatch between speakers to give you a ballpark
indication or idea that they need retensioning
I do not know this models gram weight but calling around to installers or Apogee should get you the Info
If you change to a lighter or thinner foil than stock you will increase foil resistance and might need a slight crossover adjustment
Note that if you decide to retension only, it will take 80+ hours to settle back into mechanical relaxation and will sound bright and harsh
at first until it reaches equilibrium
Laying the speakers down horizontal might show you a tension droop or mismatch between speakers to give you a ballpark
indication or idea that they need retensioning
AVWERK - thanks for responding! I think that you are correct that re-tensioning would help bring the ribbons back to spec. The issue at this point is that I am looking to improve on the stock midrange sound. It has bothered me with each of the Full Ranges I have heard over the years.
Additionally, my tweeter ribbons are beyond re-tensioning. They were damaged badly when I transported them to my listening room. So, time to replace the mid and tweet ribbons. I'd like to look beyond the commercially available options.
I know that thinner ribbons will present a higher resistance to my amps, and I welcome it. My crossover is electronic, and the mid and tweet ribbons are driven directly by a pair of Benchmark AHB-2 amplifiers through some heatsinked, Caddock power resistors. I'm dumping a lot of power through the resistors.
Amongst the many reasons I chose the Benchmarks, is that the DC offset at the speaker terminals is in the neighborhood of 12 to 14 microvolts. Yes microvolts. The ribbons do not react at all when the relays in the amps connect to them. I never liked the distortion contributed by the stock midrange impedance matching transformers, so they are out of the circuit.
My system, at this point is fairly transparent. Directly driving the mid and tweet ribbons was a huge improvement, but the edginess remains.
At lower volumes the stock ribbons sound pretty good. At concert volumes, particularly with a well recorded piano, the impulse information drives the ribbons into an edgy distortion. Many other sources will also produce the edginess.
For recreational listening, I sometimes put a tube buffer into the midrange path. The warmth and patina added through the tubes partially covers the edginess.
For post-production of recordings, I cannot use tubes in my system. All solid-state has its own problems, but I find it more revealing of what was actually recorded for post-production purposes.
I have been carefully considering options and eliminating other possible causes of non-linear distortion in my system for years. The remaining link is the mid and tweet ribbons.
I think it's time to take the plunge and try thinner gauge ribbons.
Additionally, my tweeter ribbons are beyond re-tensioning. They were damaged badly when I transported them to my listening room. So, time to replace the mid and tweet ribbons. I'd like to look beyond the commercially available options.
I know that thinner ribbons will present a higher resistance to my amps, and I welcome it. My crossover is electronic, and the mid and tweet ribbons are driven directly by a pair of Benchmark AHB-2 amplifiers through some heatsinked, Caddock power resistors. I'm dumping a lot of power through the resistors.
Amongst the many reasons I chose the Benchmarks, is that the DC offset at the speaker terminals is in the neighborhood of 12 to 14 microvolts. Yes microvolts. The ribbons do not react at all when the relays in the amps connect to them. I never liked the distortion contributed by the stock midrange impedance matching transformers, so they are out of the circuit.
My system, at this point is fairly transparent. Directly driving the mid and tweet ribbons was a huge improvement, but the edginess remains.
At lower volumes the stock ribbons sound pretty good. At concert volumes, particularly with a well recorded piano, the impulse information drives the ribbons into an edgy distortion. Many other sources will also produce the edginess.
For recreational listening, I sometimes put a tube buffer into the midrange path. The warmth and patina added through the tubes partially covers the edginess.
For post-production of recordings, I cannot use tubes in my system. All solid-state has its own problems, but I find it more revealing of what was actually recorded for post-production purposes.
I have been carefully considering options and eliminating other possible causes of non-linear distortion in my system for years. The remaining link is the mid and tweet ribbons.
I think it's time to take the plunge and try thinner gauge ribbons.
If you can locate the exact frequency thru impulse testing a notch filter might
be an alternative method
Also you say it doesn’t manifest at low volumes ? The Benchnark are not the
power house typical amps commonly used on so maybe clipping is happening
Not sure your wattage rating or size of resistance value but disconnect the ribbon
( it’s contribution is minimal here)
and notice just where the amp clips on a scope with a sine wave. It might just as simple
as that
The Benchmarks switching PS design even though unique , might be just being pushed
to its max limit. Some of these class d ps,s have an abrupt sign off limit
be an alternative method
Also you say it doesn’t manifest at low volumes ? The Benchnark are not the
power house typical amps commonly used on so maybe clipping is happening
Not sure your wattage rating or size of resistance value but disconnect the ribbon
( it’s contribution is minimal here)
and notice just where the amp clips on a scope with a sine wave. It might just as simple
as that
The Benchmarks switching PS design even though unique , might be just being pushed
to its max limit. Some of these class d ps,s have an abrupt sign off limit
Thanks for staying with me on this AVWERK. The distortion is not a specific frequency. It is a peak information modulation distortion.
This is the fifth set of amps that I’ve used on the mids and tweets. It is also the second active crossover. First with a Krell KRX-1 electronic crossover – Audio Research D240, Krell KSA100, Krell KSA80b, then a pair of Pass Aleph 30s (very pretty sounding, but anemic power), and finally with the 4 way crossover – the Benchmark AHB2s. The transient distortion has been present in the mid-range with all sets of crossovers and amps.
I would not add a notch filter to the system even if that could solve the problem. I’ve built the system to maintain minimum phase and retain transient information. LR-4 alignment at from Sub to Bass and single pole for the rest of the range, bass to mid and mid to tweet.
There is no way for all of us to know the specs of every amp that hits the market, but the AHB-2s have specs that strain the limits of the Audio Precision gear that measures them.
Before his passing Bascomb King measured the AHB-2 – "The new Benchmark AHB2 is the result of considerable research and patents on its resultant circuitry. The intent was to make it an ultra low distortion design. I would have to say they succeeded as it is the lowest noise and distortion power amp I have measured and I have measured a LOT of power amps in my career." Also - John Atkinson of Stereophile - "Benchmark Media Systems' AHB2 is an extraordinary amplifier ... its performance lies at the limits of what is possible for me to reliably test" (https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/reviews/95782855-ahb2-bench-test-john-atkinson-stereophile)
I’m using Caddock NP9100 (100 Watt) 4ohm resistors on the mids and 3.3 ohm resistors on the tweeters. The mids are getting 190 Watts using that resistance and the tweets are getting around 130 watts.
The AHB-2s do not have your father’s design, switching power supply. From the Specs. - Output Current - 29 A peak into 1 Ohm, both channels driven and Output Voltage - > 80 Vpp into any rated load. Benchmark recommends a dedicated 20 Amp supply circuit for the amp. I've done that.
The amps have clipping lights on them, and I have gotten the tweeter channels to clip with heavy rock material, but not the mid-range.
BTW the AHB-2 are class AB output stage and use the patented THX AAA design to modify signal so that the output has so little distortion. Pretty interesting technology.
I do a fair amount of research before I decide to make a move. The previous four sets of amps were very good. But the AHB-2s are keepers.
This is the fifth set of amps that I’ve used on the mids and tweets. It is also the second active crossover. First with a Krell KRX-1 electronic crossover – Audio Research D240, Krell KSA100, Krell KSA80b, then a pair of Pass Aleph 30s (very pretty sounding, but anemic power), and finally with the 4 way crossover – the Benchmark AHB2s. The transient distortion has been present in the mid-range with all sets of crossovers and amps.
I would not add a notch filter to the system even if that could solve the problem. I’ve built the system to maintain minimum phase and retain transient information. LR-4 alignment at from Sub to Bass and single pole for the rest of the range, bass to mid and mid to tweet.
There is no way for all of us to know the specs of every amp that hits the market, but the AHB-2s have specs that strain the limits of the Audio Precision gear that measures them.
Before his passing Bascomb King measured the AHB-2 – "The new Benchmark AHB2 is the result of considerable research and patents on its resultant circuitry. The intent was to make it an ultra low distortion design. I would have to say they succeeded as it is the lowest noise and distortion power amp I have measured and I have measured a LOT of power amps in my career." Also - John Atkinson of Stereophile - "Benchmark Media Systems' AHB2 is an extraordinary amplifier ... its performance lies at the limits of what is possible for me to reliably test" (https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/reviews/95782855-ahb2-bench-test-john-atkinson-stereophile)
I’m using Caddock NP9100 (100 Watt) 4ohm resistors on the mids and 3.3 ohm resistors on the tweeters. The mids are getting 190 Watts using that resistance and the tweets are getting around 130 watts.
The AHB-2s do not have your father’s design, switching power supply. From the Specs. - Output Current - 29 A peak into 1 Ohm, both channels driven and Output Voltage - > 80 Vpp into any rated load. Benchmark recommends a dedicated 20 Amp supply circuit for the amp. I've done that.
The amps have clipping lights on them, and I have gotten the tweeter channels to clip with heavy rock material, but not the mid-range.
BTW the AHB-2 are class AB output stage and use the patented THX AAA design to modify signal so that the output has so little distortion. Pretty interesting technology.
I do a fair amount of research before I decide to make a move. The previous four sets of amps were very good. But the AHB-2s are keepers.
Hi Muses,
a remark from my side; you say you use a h-frame for under 125Hz. So I guess your Apogees damping foam is degraded and/ or your bass-membran lost its tunes.
If the bass foil hits the frame, it produces harmonic distortions higher in frequency up to 400-600 Hz or even higher.
So maybe you are facing several problems; Mid- and high Ribbons not correctly tensioned and bass foam degraded and foil out of tune.
If the tension of the foil is too weak, changes of hitting bass foil against the frame is higher. Retensioning the bass minimizes distortions that arise from flabby foils. But you need a measurement device and patience.
I possesed Fullranges long time ago and in their original state, I never experienced unpleasent sound, even in original concert volume levels. And that had been driven with their transformers in place.
The Duettas give up long before; the treble ribbons start sounding shrill, if volume gets too high.
If they would be my speakers, I would obtain new mid and high-ribbons and let the rotten foam be impregnated with silicone. Or I would buy new bassfoils and change them by myself, or if money would allow, let them be installed by professionals.
I did this with 3 pairs of Duettas (silicone). The last repair had been most succesfull, because I learned how to fix it.
Front-Side is easy, back-side not so. But is possible.
Today I use silicone&more stuff 5B. Two components mixed 1:1. Once dried, it becomes super soft and dampens the foil very well. It creeps perfectly into the open cell foam. No more harmonic distortions from foil hitting mdf frame.
But it`s some effort and takes patience and a buddy who helps you. I suppose you won`t go this route, but if yes, I can give you hints and tips.
P.S. my avatar shows my Duetta Signature (minus the cat
), I use it fully active (Raspi Camilladsp and NCORE) They are still fine.
a remark from my side; you say you use a h-frame for under 125Hz. So I guess your Apogees damping foam is degraded and/ or your bass-membran lost its tunes.
If the bass foil hits the frame, it produces harmonic distortions higher in frequency up to 400-600 Hz or even higher.
So maybe you are facing several problems; Mid- and high Ribbons not correctly tensioned and bass foam degraded and foil out of tune.
If the tension of the foil is too weak, changes of hitting bass foil against the frame is higher. Retensioning the bass minimizes distortions that arise from flabby foils. But you need a measurement device and patience.
I possesed Fullranges long time ago and in their original state, I never experienced unpleasent sound, even in original concert volume levels. And that had been driven with their transformers in place.
The Duettas give up long before; the treble ribbons start sounding shrill, if volume gets too high.
If they would be my speakers, I would obtain new mid and high-ribbons and let the rotten foam be impregnated with silicone. Or I would buy new bassfoils and change them by myself, or if money would allow, let them be installed by professionals.
I did this with 3 pairs of Duettas (silicone). The last repair had been most succesfull, because I learned how to fix it.
Front-Side is easy, back-side not so. But is possible.
Today I use silicone&more stuff 5B. Two components mixed 1:1. Once dried, it becomes super soft and dampens the foil very well. It creeps perfectly into the open cell foam. No more harmonic distortions from foil hitting mdf frame.
But it`s some effort and takes patience and a buddy who helps you. I suppose you won`t go this route, but if yes, I can give you hints and tips.
P.S. my avatar shows my Duetta Signature (minus the cat
), I use it fully active (Raspi Camilladsp and NCORE) They are still fine.
@taotao
I have had a pair of buzzing Apogee Stages in storage for now far to many years.
I had planned to try the Silicone Oil fix but never got around to actually order the stuff.
I just read your comment from September 2023 about the "stuff" and felt encouraged to start doing something about the matter. I vaguely remembered something about a mix of 3 components and quickly Googled this. Back in 2013 you said this:
Quote...
"I used Zhermack HT33, those are two bottles, the silicone and the hardener.
I also put silicone oil into the mixture. The silicone oil is the reason, why the dryed mixture is so very soft.
If I remember correctly, I used 1 part silicone, 1 part hardener and 1/3 part silicone oil."
So the question is... Are your old recipe still your current recommendation or have you found a better mix, maybe using only 2 components of silicone&more stuff 5B? ...and was is "silicone&more stuff 5B"?
Thanks,
Martin Roerup, Denmark.
I have had a pair of buzzing Apogee Stages in storage for now far to many years.
I had planned to try the Silicone Oil fix but never got around to actually order the stuff.
I just read your comment from September 2023 about the "stuff" and felt encouraged to start doing something about the matter. I vaguely remembered something about a mix of 3 components and quickly Googled this. Back in 2013 you said this:
Quote...
"I used Zhermack HT33, those are two bottles, the silicone and the hardener.
I also put silicone oil into the mixture. The silicone oil is the reason, why the dryed mixture is so very soft.
If I remember correctly, I used 1 part silicone, 1 part hardener and 1/3 part silicone oil."
So the question is... Are your old recipe still your current recommendation or have you found a better mix, maybe using only 2 components of silicone&more stuff 5B? ...and was is "silicone&more stuff 5B"?
Thanks,
Martin Roerup, Denmark.
Thanks Olaf. Can you confirm that it is this one?
Link: Silicone Addition Colorless 5 for masks and soft moulds
Link: Silicone Addition Colorless 5 for masks and soft moulds