Hi.
I am "Refurbishing" an old pair of Pioneer HPM-150 speakers. <Circuit below>
Am trying to follow this guy's video on YouTube: Pioneer HPM-150 Restoration Crossover He opens his bags of new parts at 3min:50s
He rebuilds an almost all new crossover from new parts (Doesn't provide the parts list...nice layouts though)
First Question:
The Inductor specification is driving me nuts. (Looking for 0.1mH, 0.5mH, and 0.4mH)
Do Ribbon Inductors (or Lintz type) even come in 0.5, 0.4, and 0.1 mH values? (Shopping at PartsExpress and PartsConnexion I cannot get a like set in Ribbon OR Lintz)
1. Are these mH values normally available -Is this the global shortage at work?
2. Is there some 'rule' around converting from a 0.4mH to Ribbon you reduce by 0.01mH <There are 0.39mH ones out there>
3. Would it change much to vary by a 1/100th on the mH value? <Take a close size>
- from reading about it seems there will be variation due to field interference between them on the tiny stock board anyhow...?
Second Question:
Are there any adjustments I need to do on mH values coming from Ferrite Spools to either Lintz or Ribbon type Inductors?
The original Inductors are on Ferrite spools. (and crammed pretty close in a tiny space)
I was planning to do a larger layout and mount it in the large cabinets.
Do I just buy Inductors to the original values and space them out?
Third Question:
There are two different PNs for the 0.1mH - and the Ferrite spools are different sizes (one is 28mmx20mm, other is 23mm x 15mm)
Since I am spreading these out...does this matter at all? (or do i just get 0.1mH's and go on?)
I am "Refurbishing" an old pair of Pioneer HPM-150 speakers. <Circuit below>
Am trying to follow this guy's video on YouTube: Pioneer HPM-150 Restoration Crossover He opens his bags of new parts at 3min:50s
He rebuilds an almost all new crossover from new parts (Doesn't provide the parts list...nice layouts though)
First Question:
The Inductor specification is driving me nuts. (Looking for 0.1mH, 0.5mH, and 0.4mH)
Do Ribbon Inductors (or Lintz type) even come in 0.5, 0.4, and 0.1 mH values? (Shopping at PartsExpress and PartsConnexion I cannot get a like set in Ribbon OR Lintz)
1. Are these mH values normally available -Is this the global shortage at work?
2. Is there some 'rule' around converting from a 0.4mH to Ribbon you reduce by 0.01mH <There are 0.39mH ones out there>
3. Would it change much to vary by a 1/100th on the mH value? <Take a close size>
- from reading about it seems there will be variation due to field interference between them on the tiny stock board anyhow...?
Second Question:
Are there any adjustments I need to do on mH values coming from Ferrite Spools to either Lintz or Ribbon type Inductors?
The original Inductors are on Ferrite spools. (and crammed pretty close in a tiny space)
I was planning to do a larger layout and mount it in the large cabinets.
Do I just buy Inductors to the original values and space them out?
Third Question:
There are two different PNs for the 0.1mH - and the Ferrite spools are different sizes (one is 28mmx20mm, other is 23mm x 15mm)
Since I am spreading these out...does this matter at all? (or do i just get 0.1mH's and go on?)
Last edited by a moderator:
"0.4" vs "0.39" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_series_of_preferred_numbers
In low-order crossovers like this, +/-5% is terrific and +/-10% is probably fine.
In low-order crossovers like this, +/-5% is terrific and +/-10% is probably fine.
You can add or subtract turns. You can also consider regular types rather than ribbon or Litz.
I think I know where you read about that, and it's not to be taken literally. The differences in measured inductance were only used because it suited the test method, but it still shows general interaction nonetheless. It's better to assume you'll try to avoid interactions in the first place and leave it at that. Later, if you measure anything that isn't right you can take further steps.
I won't bother with Litz wire for those speakers.......just get air cored & use a thicker wire gauge especially in the LF section.
& yes space them at least 10cm apart if you can & turn the axis so they are 90 deg to each other...then they have no effects on each other...
This is my thread on my speaker modification...which should give you some ideas on inductors etc.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bronze-bx2-speakers-2010-2015yr-model.388989/
& yes space them at least 10cm apart if you can & turn the axis so they are 90 deg to each other...then they have no effects on each other...
This is my thread on my speaker modification...which should give you some ideas on inductors etc.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bronze-bx2-speakers-2010-2015yr-model.388989/
Thanks! The E_series of preferred numbers is fascinating. Haven't seen that before- explains the odd sizing.
Ok, Will probably just buy AIr inductors that are close as possible to the needed values...
Thank you for your response and time!
Ok, Will probably just buy AIr inductors that are close as possible to the needed values...
Thank you for your response and time!
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Ok - just air cooled (open) Inductors and 14gauge wiring to the LF. THANK YOU for the thread - really answered a lot of the extra questions I had.
Will follow it.
Thanks!
So.... Here are the Choices in Caps and Inductors. The Litz inductors are really low impedence and to be used for the Woofer and Mid (Per Link). Other two are for Tweeter and Super Tweet. + Clarity Cap SA series....running (2) 1.5uF in parallel to get 3uF
...any feedback?
...any feedback?
I'll have a look later tonight as I have Jantzens full range spec sheets.......
You can get low DCR air cored without having to use Litz wire...like I said before those speakers aren't "top end" enough to warrant the expense of Litz wire inductors...
Just replacing all (even on the HF sections) the existing thin gauge wire iron cored inductors with thicker gauge wire air cored will make a difference....save your money for other components...
Maybe I was too casual at the start of this thread - these will be my main speakers (over Martin Logan Vantage series, which are currently pushed against the wall to make room for these <because these just beat the crap out of them head-to-head>)
I think these HPM-150s (TOTL 1976) stack up against just about anything. To my ears - these beat out the Forte's, LaScalas, and JBL 4349's <which I went shopping for last weekend>.... ALSO Considering there is currently only one pair listed on ebay for $4300 USD <out of Spain>- might be ok to spend a little more on these. Not wanting to waste money - however all of the above points to spending a little more to get it right would be fine.
Based on the DIY Link above I read the Bass (Mid and Woofs) would benefit from the better inductors - Ribbon or Litz. I could use the standard air core for Tweeter and Super Tweeter as the impact would be very marginal in the higher frequencies(?). <=did I read the speaker thread right?
Which would offer better improvement Ribbon or Litz for the Mid and Woofs?
Any thoughts on the Clarity SA series Capacitors?
Capacitors:-
Your parts list is all wrong. Why do you want to spend money on very expensive foil or Litz wire inductors, yet list the cheapest Claritycap capacitors (SA range) with a 5% tolerance??
You should be specifying at least the ones I used i.e. the ESA & CSA ranges which both have a 3% tolerance.
Inductors:-
Litz wire for the tweeters & mids...anything above 2kHz.
Solid wire for the bass & mids...basically anything below 2kHz
See this page near the bottom of the page is a chart which shows the "Q" curves of different types of inductors...foil is too "excited"..
http://www.alkeng.com/dload_xo.html
What is better is selection of lower DCR of each inductor, & using thicker gauge wire,
For example, in my MA speaker modification thread my x-over point is 3.2kHz.....& I chose to use solid wire air cored inductors with a DCR of 1/20 of the nominal impedance of each driver as marked on the driver. I also decided to use 18AWG on the HF section.. & 14AWG on the LF section. I chose not to use Litz or foil as my drivers do not warrant the extra expense!
The LF section required a 0mH45 inductor & the driver had a nominal impedance marked on it of 3ohm. Therefore 1/20 of 3ohm = 0.160DCR.
I used a Jantzen Air Core Inductor 0.45mH, 14AWG (1.6mm dia.), DCR 0.150
The HF section required a 0mH15 inductor & the driver had a nominal impedance marked on it of 4ohm. Therefore 1/20 of 3ohm = 0.200DCR.
I used a Jantzen Air Core Inductor 0.15mH, 18AWG (1mm dia.), DCR 0.193
Your parts list is all wrong. Why do you want to spend money on very expensive foil or Litz wire inductors, yet list the cheapest Claritycap capacitors (SA range) with a 5% tolerance??
You should be specifying at least the ones I used i.e. the ESA & CSA ranges which both have a 3% tolerance.
Inductors:-
Litz wire for the tweeters & mids...anything above 2kHz.
Solid wire for the bass & mids...basically anything below 2kHz
See this page near the bottom of the page is a chart which shows the "Q" curves of different types of inductors...foil is too "excited"..
http://www.alkeng.com/dload_xo.html
What is better is selection of lower DCR of each inductor, & using thicker gauge wire,
For example, in my MA speaker modification thread my x-over point is 3.2kHz.....& I chose to use solid wire air cored inductors with a DCR of 1/20 of the nominal impedance of each driver as marked on the driver. I also decided to use 18AWG on the HF section.. & 14AWG on the LF section. I chose not to use Litz or foil as my drivers do not warrant the extra expense!
The LF section required a 0mH45 inductor & the driver had a nominal impedance marked on it of 3ohm. Therefore 1/20 of 3ohm = 0.160DCR.
I used a Jantzen Air Core Inductor 0.45mH, 14AWG (1.6mm dia.), DCR 0.150
The HF section required a 0mH15 inductor & the driver had a nominal impedance marked on it of 4ohm. Therefore 1/20 of 3ohm = 0.200DCR.
I used a Jantzen Air Core Inductor 0.15mH, 18AWG (1mm dia.), DCR 0.193
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Hi HiDave,
Interesting chart- puts the best part of the foil inductors above our hearing range. Ok - I understand.
Based on the Inductor graph & Capacitor maximum +/-3% tolerance & Capacitor information from HumbleHomemadeHiFi =>
Then Cross referenced for what is actually available on Parts Connexion and Parts Express <Very Limited Availability> - my options are below.
What are your recommendations on the below options for a parts list <Blue>?
Any big difference between the Jantzen Alumen and ClarityCap CSA?
Also - any places other than PartsConnexion or Parts-Express you would recommend I 'shop' (as inventory is pretty limited)?
Thank you for your time and patience,
Will
Interesting chart- puts the best part of the foil inductors above our hearing range. Ok - I understand.
Based on the Inductor graph & Capacitor maximum +/-3% tolerance & Capacitor information from HumbleHomemadeHiFi =>
Then Cross referenced for what is actually available on Parts Connexion and Parts Express <Very Limited Availability> - my options are below.
What are your recommendations on the below options for a parts list <Blue>?
Any big difference between the Jantzen Alumen and ClarityCap CSA?
Also - any places other than PartsConnexion or Parts-Express you would recommend I 'shop' (as inventory is pretty limited)?
Thank you for your time and patience,
Will
I'll look at the parts list in the next few days...I don't know where you are in the World, but I purchased my stuff where I live (UK) from this shop...who have a HUGE range...& basically all the ranges of all the brands they stock....
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/componentshome.html
They ship worldwide:-
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/shipping-returns-i-4.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/componentshome.html
They ship worldwide:-
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/shipping-returns-i-4.html
Price to performance of the Clarity cap CSA is very good so I use them. ESA is the older version and almost as good. I can’t justify the 10x price of the Jantzen even though I can afford them.
I use the heaviest gauge coils for woofers but in a lower freq xover you don’t need litz
there. For mids and highs litz has some advantages but the gauge and resistance are more important so I use minimum of 16 on the mids and 18 on the highs. Use good quality noninductive resistors too. 10 watt is enough on mids and highs. They can handle much more peak without problems. Don’t get too hung up on this stuff and go for it, you can always make changes later. I’d rather listen than agoniz.
I use the heaviest gauge coils for woofers but in a lower freq xover you don’t need litz
there. For mids and highs litz has some advantages but the gauge and resistance are more important so I use minimum of 16 on the mids and 18 on the highs. Use good quality noninductive resistors too. 10 watt is enough on mids and highs. They can handle much more peak without problems. Don’t get too hung up on this stuff and go for it, you can always make changes later. I’d rather listen than agoniz.
I take it this is inductive reactance against winding resistance, in the presence of parasitic capacitive reactance? I'd think when shown with real circuit loading you'd see a different picture.
Over my head that.....
I just read the relevant section on that page I linked to all info there...I found that info a few years back & that was referenced by some other technical websites..some is over my head.
I had noticed that the general consensus after reading on the subject a few years ago is that for the "best":- thick gauge solid wire inductors for lower frequency...& Litz for the HF. ...Foil is used in high end stuff, but then in those situations it appears that ALL the inductors in the cross-over are foil.....& not mixed with Litz or solid wire...
I just used solid wire on mine as not worth the expense of Litz...
Just typed 3.9ohm resistor into the search bar on hi-collectives website:-
Mundorf make a 3.9ohm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mresist-mrec10.html
They also do a more expensive "supreme" version..still only 2% tolerance like the one above:-
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mres20080-mresist-supreme-resistor-p-4029.html
Why do you want to use 3.9??......isn't the original 4ohm??
Inductor Q usually refers to the inductance vs the resistance of the inductor itself. It counts for less when loaded with a speaker which you can see in simulations, what happens to the resonance of a second order filter when the speaker is taken out of circuit. This is where you see the limitations brought by the inductor Q itself.
Inductor Q is more useful in tuned circuits such as radio bandpass circuits although effective series resistance can also be important in controlling the depth of crossover notch filters.
Inductor Q is more useful in tuned circuits such as radio bandpass circuits although effective series resistance can also be important in controlling the depth of crossover notch filters.
Based on the component choice parameters I set for my speakers, i.e. UK made for the caps, tight tolerance, DCR of 1/20 or less for the inductors, etc., etc.
Please double check all parts/values etc before ordering as I made this list quickly & didn't double check...
According to the web your speakers have a nominal impedance of 6.3ohm & cross-over points of 750Hz, 2.6kHz, & 8.5kHz
Woofer:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-0050, 0.4mH air cored inductor 14AWG, DCR of 0.14, dimensions of 50mm x 25mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0050-0-4mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go thicker wire
Jantzen 000-0829, 0.4mH air cored inductor 13AWG, DCR of 0.11, dimensions of 56mm x 30mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0829-0-4mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Mid Range:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-0002, 0.1mH air cored inductor 14AWG, DCR of 0.067, dimensions of 35mm x 25mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0002-01mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap ESA 6U8H250V, ESA 6.8uf 250Vdc capacitor dimensions of 28mm x 33mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...dc-claritycap-range-polypropylene-p-7313.html
Tweeter:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-1401, 0.5mH air cored inductor 18AWG, DCR of 0.33, dimensions of 40mm x 15mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1401-0-5mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go Litz:-
Jantzen 000-L-0050, 0.5mH Litz inductor 15AWG, DCR of 0.23, dimensions of 53mm x 30mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-l-0050-0-5mh-jantzen-litz-wire-wax-coil-awg-15.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap CSA 3UH250V, CSA 3uf 250Vdc capacitor dimensions of 27.5mm x 28mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/csa2-030-3uf-250vdc-claritycap-csa-range-polypropylene.html
Super Tweeter:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-1234, 0.1mH air cored inductor 18AWG, DCR of 0.120, dimensions of 35mm x 10mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1234-0-1mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go Litz:
Jantzen 000-L-0010, 0.1mH Litz inductor 15AWG, DCR of 0.09, dimensions of 43mm x 20mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...ire-wax-coil-awg15-7x-05mm-diameter-wire.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap CSA 3UH250V, CSA 3.9uf 250Vdc capacitor, dimensions of 31mm x 29mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...50vdc-claritycap-csa-range-polypropylene.html
Resistors:
Mills RES-M1130, MRA12, 12W 3.9 Ohm resistor 1% tolerance, dimensions or 8mm x 32mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/content/res-m1130-3r9-12w-mra12-mills-resistor-39r
Yes its not a 4Ohm, but with such a tight tolerance range of 3.86 to 3.93 Ohm..thats better than a 4 Ohm with 5% = 3.8 to 4.2 Ohm
Or you could stack a 1.8 & 2.2 ohm....& you might only need the 5w versions as its the supertweeter..whats the wattage of the existing resistors???
Please double check all parts/values etc before ordering as I made this list quickly & didn't double check...
According to the web your speakers have a nominal impedance of 6.3ohm & cross-over points of 750Hz, 2.6kHz, & 8.5kHz
Woofer:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-0050, 0.4mH air cored inductor 14AWG, DCR of 0.14, dimensions of 50mm x 25mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0050-0-4mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go thicker wire
Jantzen 000-0829, 0.4mH air cored inductor 13AWG, DCR of 0.11, dimensions of 56mm x 30mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0829-0-4mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Mid Range:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-0002, 0.1mH air cored inductor 14AWG, DCR of 0.067, dimensions of 35mm x 25mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-0002-01mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap ESA 6U8H250V, ESA 6.8uf 250Vdc capacitor dimensions of 28mm x 33mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...dc-claritycap-range-polypropylene-p-7313.html
Tweeter:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-1401, 0.5mH air cored inductor 18AWG, DCR of 0.33, dimensions of 40mm x 15mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1401-0-5mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go Litz:-
Jantzen 000-L-0050, 0.5mH Litz inductor 15AWG, DCR of 0.23, dimensions of 53mm x 30mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-l-0050-0-5mh-jantzen-litz-wire-wax-coil-awg-15.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap CSA 3UH250V, CSA 3uf 250Vdc capacitor dimensions of 27.5mm x 28mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/csa2-030-3uf-250vdc-claritycap-csa-range-polypropylene.html
Super Tweeter:-
Inductors:
Jantzen 000-1234, 0.1mH air cored inductor 18AWG, DCR of 0.120, dimensions of 35mm x 10mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1234-0-1mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html
Or go Litz:
Jantzen 000-L-0010, 0.1mH Litz inductor 15AWG, DCR of 0.09, dimensions of 43mm x 20mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...ire-wax-coil-awg15-7x-05mm-diameter-wire.html
Capacitors:
ClarityCap CSA 3UH250V, CSA 3.9uf 250Vdc capacitor, dimensions of 31mm x 29mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/ca...50vdc-claritycap-csa-range-polypropylene.html
Resistors:
Mills RES-M1130, MRA12, 12W 3.9 Ohm resistor 1% tolerance, dimensions or 8mm x 32mm
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/content/res-m1130-3r9-12w-mra12-mills-resistor-39r
Yes its not a 4Ohm, but with such a tight tolerance range of 3.86 to 3.93 Ohm..thats better than a 4 Ohm with 5% = 3.8 to 4.2 Ohm
Or you could stack a 1.8 & 2.2 ohm....& you might only need the 5w versions as its the supertweeter..whats the wattage of the existing resistors???
Wattage of existing Resistors is 10watts. I wasn't finding a 4 Ohm resistor that wasn't sold out. I like the 3.9 Ohm Mills with the 1% tolerance - good point.
HiDave : For the mid-range Capacitor - you spec'd 6.8uF ESA - there is a 6.8uF CSA available - a particular reason you spec'd ESA here, or should I go with the CSA?
That pretty much rounds out the list - going Litz for the Tweeter and Super Tweeter.
Using this for the 1:12 transformer: Transformer for the Tweeter circuit.
241.18GBP from HiFiCollective - Thank you everyone for the feedback and help!
Thank You HiDave!!!
HiDave : For the mid-range Capacitor - you spec'd 6.8uF ESA - there is a 6.8uF CSA available - a particular reason you spec'd ESA here, or should I go with the CSA?
That pretty much rounds out the list - going Litz for the Tweeter and Super Tweeter.
Using this for the 1:12 transformer: Transformer for the Tweeter circuit.
241.18GBP from HiFiCollective - Thank you everyone for the feedback and help!
Thank You HiDave!!!