By the way, I tend to think of shorting rings (and some other things I don't understand) as proxies for overall build quality. Same with neodium magnets. If I see those included in speakers made by the manufacturers who have good reputations in this forum (B&C, BMS, and many other companies) I tend to think they are the better drivers in a given outside diameter range. At the same time, I don't want to fool myself into thinking they always sound better under all conditions. Also, I'd feel like a fool for buying them if they have no value in my application.
Inner workings of a driver has effect on frequency response, which you see in a datasheet, the response is combination of all things that went to the driver. What you do not see from datasheet is how the non-linear parameters work with excursion, such as voice coil inductance. You might find Klippel data for a driver, or buy it and try and measure yourself how inductance varies with excursion. DSP could help with frequency response, but not with the non-linearity.
Thought experiment: if shorting rings reduce voice coil inductance, and if excursion varied voice coil inductance 20%, then the smaller inductance would vary less and result less non-linear distortion, right? Except, if the Le(x) was not dominating distortion on driver pass band to start with, but something else like BL(x).
To help you thinkin it through: the problem inductance that varies with excursion, Le(x), is that a bass note making great excursion would distort all the pass band, mostly on the high frequencies where inductance has increasing effect on. This might or might not be a problem, depending on what the pass band is. If you add 10mH coil in series to make a low pass filter, effect of the varying inductance to total circuit inductance is now much less.
Same for neodymium vs. ferrite, perhaps there are some differences in sound, like big ferrite chunk behind cone might make a reflection on highs, perhaps some magnetic field stuff going on that could make a difference, or ferrite magnet being big thermal mass which ought to help voice coil stay cooler. I'm not professional on this stuff, but I think that sound could differ in so many ways between any two drives that choice between ferrite and neodymium reduces mostly to weight. If you need to lug the stuff around use neodymium, otherwise either could be suitable, there is fine drivers with both ferrite and neodymium magnets
Many ways to think about the stuff, and the more you know the more you benefit being able to make educated choices. Usually it is useful to buy best driver you can afford, but what is best?
If performance of a system is limited by poor acoustic design like nasty box resonance for example, perhaps it's not worth it to put the most expensive driver on it because using good enough would result equal result, and save bunch of cash.
Thought experiment: if shorting rings reduce voice coil inductance, and if excursion varied voice coil inductance 20%, then the smaller inductance would vary less and result less non-linear distortion, right? Except, if the Le(x) was not dominating distortion on driver pass band to start with, but something else like BL(x).
To help you thinkin it through: the problem inductance that varies with excursion, Le(x), is that a bass note making great excursion would distort all the pass band, mostly on the high frequencies where inductance has increasing effect on. This might or might not be a problem, depending on what the pass band is. If you add 10mH coil in series to make a low pass filter, effect of the varying inductance to total circuit inductance is now much less.
Same for neodymium vs. ferrite, perhaps there are some differences in sound, like big ferrite chunk behind cone might make a reflection on highs, perhaps some magnetic field stuff going on that could make a difference, or ferrite magnet being big thermal mass which ought to help voice coil stay cooler. I'm not professional on this stuff, but I think that sound could differ in so many ways between any two drives that choice between ferrite and neodymium reduces mostly to weight. If you need to lug the stuff around use neodymium, otherwise either could be suitable, there is fine drivers with both ferrite and neodymium magnets
Many ways to think about the stuff, and the more you know the more you benefit being able to make educated choices. Usually it is useful to buy best driver you can afford, but what is best?
If performance of a system is limited by poor acoustic design like nasty box resonance for example, perhaps it's not worth it to put the most expensive driver on it because using good enough would result equal result, and save bunch of cash.
Last edited:
And since neodymium is an electrically conductive material, the magnet system like this can act as shorting circuit.
If heat would be a big problem for neo magnet motors, then PA drivers/speakers would use exclusively ferrit I think, but that's not the case, but TOTL pro sound speakers/drivers almost all have neo magnets.
If heat would be a big problem for neo magnet motors, then PA drivers/speakers would use exclusively ferrit I think, but that's not the case, but TOTL pro sound speakers/drivers almost all have neo magnets.
Yeah neodymium magnet motors seem to have cooling vents for example. In PA application the boxes are reflex / horn, where ventilation is better than could be at home with a closed box. There is lots of subtleties to drivers that are not always obvious, or important. PA is quite different than home use, so looking at PA drivers for home use there is extra freedom to choose I think, features that matter and don't matter. PA drivers are likely designed to work "optimally" in high excursion and temperature with hundreds of Watts turning into heat, while at home there could be just few Watts although a closed box with DSP boost at home heat could be an audible issue.
Drivers are both interesting and uninteresting at the same time I would design a speaker system with ideal drivers and then buy best ones that fit the bill. I have just enough knowledge to be able to doubt things and try and consider from multiple perspectives, while not having much real experience what actually matters and what doesn't.
Drivers are both interesting and uninteresting at the same time
I would design a speaker system with ideal drivers and then buy best ones that fit the bill. I have just enough knowledge to be able to doubt things and try and consider from multiple perspectives, while not having much real experience what actually matters and what doesn't.
Haha, I'd quess supply is easy as recording and playback was invented a long time ago but as it can be done in various ways and there is intelligent system trying to understand what delivers then there is going to be x pages about it
On the otherhand your question encompasses everything, so, it is roughly impossible to answer no matter how many pages. And would need assumptions to be corrected straight away: also other sensory input is involved than ears, and auditory system is non-linear isn't it. It is good question philosophically to question what makes into good perceived sound though, a starting point anyone should ask themselves before buying power tools and parts thinking building ones. And then dig as deep as one wants to, or buy from box store and use time for whatever matters the most
On the otherhand your question encompasses everything, so, it is roughly impossible to answer no matter how many pages. And would need assumptions to be corrected straight away: also other sensory input is involved than ears, and auditory system is non-linear isn't it. It is good question philosophically to question what makes into good perceived sound though, a starting point anyone should ask themselves before buying power tools and parts thinking building ones. And then dig as deep as one wants to, or buy from box store and use time for whatever matters the most
Last edited:
They can't your ears starts distorting at high SPL too, worse then your system often.
It is not that difficult at all if your speakers are large enough. Just keep in mind that the relative bandwidth of 1: 1000 (or 10 Octaves ) means that we need physical devices that do also span a great "bandwidth" of sizes. It is also easier to detect mechanical energy than to generate it. In comparison the frequency range covered by the is only about 1:2 or approx 1 Octave.
The frequency range our ears are able to detect is using wavelengths much larger than our body heigth (17m) to such that are only 1.7 cm.
In the appartment of the "giant family" no one would mind speakers that are 3 meters tall but in the usual human's flat 1.5 m speakers are sometimes considered gigantic.
Regards
Charles
Yeah! and then one could ask that why is it so? why this and why that, and all one could answer is "it depends" endless chain of questions, which could lead to understanding, but can feel confusing for quite some time before puzzle pieces start to make sense.
Generalized answer might be that make speakers problem free for given application, but what's that? For example a PA speaker system needs to withstand rain and dust and needs to be safe not to injure people when windy, and beyond this kind of utility functions one might ask to make the sound better, and better it is made after asking whats wrong in the first place and figuring out whats better, but is it good still depends on listening skill of the operator So, as long as there is more than one people on the forums there is going to be all kinds of threads.
endless chain of questions, which could lead to understanding, but can feel confusing for quite some time before puzzle pieces start to make sense. Generalized answer might be that make speakers problem free for given application, but what's that? For example a PA speaker system needs to withstand rain and dust and needs to be safe not to injure people when windy, and beyond this kind of utility functions one might ask to make the sound better, and better it is made after asking whats wrong in the first place and figuring out whats better, but is it good still depends on listening skill of the operator
So, as long as there is more than one people on the forums there is going to be all kinds of threads.
Last edited:
Our eyes can see light, in particular the sun, so why is it so hard to create power on the level of the sun...
What you say here doesn't really make much sense, man. I know you are very smart, so maybe miss worded? Your analogy would only apply if the target of the thread was the equivalent of the sun. Is it?
Is the high SPL requirement for the benefit of the ears or more like my old car, I knew what it could do on the dyno even though I would be arrested if used to its potential. Just trying to figure out what this SPL requirement is and whether if it is for the benefit of the ears or the security of knowing that one could if they wanted to
Since when is sensing the same as pulling a substantial amount of energy from something on an efficient way?
With that you even assume that what you're sensing has usable energy to begin with.
Energy harvesting is a totally different game.
Last edited:
It is easier to detect any type of energy than to create it. Think of gravitational waves.
Genelec has a chart that helps match listening environment with SPL requirements.
https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
It was a rhetorical question to expose the erroneous logic.
Last edited:
I guess the last detail is to not expect the same performance from this
Though each has its merit or purpose, when it comes to reaching for max performance, the smaller systems will not be able to maintain a high level of Accuracy at a significant volume. The Transient performance and the LF performance will suffer greatly in a small design like these.
A platform like this below is where I would go if staying with dynamic radiator. 15"-21" woofer at the bottom, MTM section with 4-6" woofers.
Or keep it simple, 15-18" woofer crossed to a nice mid and tweeter.
The tweeters/mids in these speakers are still leaving meat on the table, a compression driver and large woofer is the next step up. In combination with a horn/waveguide. When a horn/waveguide is used the directivity can be tailored. Higher directivity focuses more sound on the audience and less on the walls, this also increases accuracy of reproduction.
The modern stuff leans towards large waveguides and constant directivity, though there are some odd balls out there that embrace some of the older solutions
And finally, the low end, is approached through multi sub woofers. The multiple redundant subwoofers, Work together to lower excursion, and improve the performance of FR in the room.
The aspect of dispersion is highly criticized. This is true of all speakers big and small, but your question was focused on "why so loud?"...
When some people see these large systems they immediately think, hearing damage. Thats absolutely correct lol but about as relevant as seeing someone step into a Hummer EV and saying "car accident". Just because it can do 150mph doesn't mean you are going to, but the performance that is had within the law is much greater than something lesser. Lower distortion is also safer for your ears. There is a gas pedal and a speedometer... There is a volume knob, and there are spl monitors. I use mine.
Though each has its merit or purpose, when it comes to reaching for max performance, the smaller systems will not be able to maintain a high level of Accuracy at a significant volume. The Transient performance and the LF performance will suffer greatly in a small design like these.
A platform like this below is where I would go if staying with dynamic radiator. 15"-21" woofer at the bottom, MTM section with 4-6" woofers.
Or keep it simple, 15-18" woofer crossed to a nice mid and tweeter.
The tweeters/mids in these speakers are still leaving meat on the table, a compression driver and large woofer is the next step up. In combination with a horn/waveguide. When a horn/waveguide is used the directivity can be tailored. Higher directivity focuses more sound on the audience and less on the walls, this also increases accuracy of reproduction.
The modern stuff leans towards large waveguides and constant directivity, though there are some odd balls out there that embrace some of the older solutions
And finally, the low end, is approached through multi sub woofers. The multiple redundant subwoofers, Work together to lower excursion, and improve the performance of FR in the room.
The aspect of dispersion is highly criticized. This is true of all speakers big and small, but your question was focused on "why so loud?"...
When some people see these large systems they immediately think, hearing damage. Thats absolutely correct lol but about as relevant as seeing someone step into a Hummer EV and saying "car accident". Just because it can do 150mph doesn't mean you are going to, but the performance that is had within the law is much greater than something lesser. Lower distortion is also safer for your ears. There is a gas pedal and a speedometer... There is a volume knob, and there are spl monitors. I use mine.
That I get my head around. I appreciate a massive amount of headroom, but I think this whole thing is also music dependent. I mentioned taking my greensleeves samplers around to all the hi-fi shops in Sydney in another thread. My experience was that most systems struggled with continuous melodic or rhythmic basslines thumb attack played as recorded on most Reggae out of Jamaica. Amps would light clipping while still at fairly low on the volume dial. Most things couldn't hit a fun volume. Aaron speakers and Monitor Audio dual woofer ones went ok on the upper and mid-bass, but everything else was pretty much either absent in the low or badly distorting early. I ended up going through sub after sub until I gave up on the Hi-fi ones and tried PA drivers. Much better, but took up too much space. Around that point, a close friend and school buddy started a serious car install biz. Together we set up a JL 13W7 in a ported box with a pair of old 500wrms modules from Jaycar. Only then, combined with the Aarons, I had bass at fun levels in my listening area and for me that is not very loud at all, the need is for massive dynamic headroom. It can't be about playing a louder system at lower levels, as you say. Has to be more about having ample reserve ability to draw upon peaks. Turn the volume up and it won't be louder and clean. Just loud and dirty as the reserve has evaporated
My point is that what you might be a good low distortion system for one person can be a high distortion system for another at the same turn of the volume
So with that in mind and the limitations of the ear, has there been any consensus to what particular high spl target to build to?
My point is that what you might be a good low distortion system for one person can be a high distortion system for another at the same turn of the volume
So with that in mind and the limitations of the ear, has there been any consensus to what particular high spl target to build to?