Just got back from the Dayton Ohio DIY speaker meet and was blown away by Jim Griffin's "Needles" line array he had set up in his hotel room. Just thought I'd post a picture of how beautiful these speakers are. I'm 100% sold on line arrays now and don't think I can go back to conventional speakers 😀
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Thanks for the good words and excellent photo. I'm glad that you enjoyed the Needles. Good to meet you as well.
Jim
Jim
Welcome to the club
LA's sound fab. Add Ribbon's to the reason's why those sound amazing.
While people can explain why they sound good in conventional terms, there's no spec I know of that adequately captures the experience.
I just finished a project based on Jim's papers and personal advice (although I didn't take ALL of it, for cost reasons) and I was stunned by the results - having built a lot of speakers in the past. I'm sorry I missed the Dayton Show too - I live in Cinci - so it was close by and I've been wanting to hear Jim's designs.
Click here to see details of my LA project including measurements, photos etc.
LA's sound fab. Add Ribbon's to the reason's why those sound amazing.
While people can explain why they sound good in conventional terms, there's no spec I know of that adequately captures the experience.
I just finished a project based on Jim's papers and personal advice (although I didn't take ALL of it, for cost reasons) and I was stunned by the results - having built a lot of speakers in the past. I'm sorry I missed the Dayton Show too - I live in Cinci - so it was close by and I've been wanting to hear Jim's designs.
Click here to see details of my LA project including measurements, photos etc.
I agree. I'll never go back to point source. Just listened to the 25k$ McIntosh LA's.
Excellent, but I'm sure some of our LA projects are up to the pepsi challenge.
Excellent, but I'm sure some of our LA projects are up to the pepsi challenge.
Grrrrrrrrrr......... Now I'm really confused. I cant decide if I want to use a line of tweets to match up with my line of NSB's, or go with a single point source tweeter like these tall dark and handsome fellas.
BTW, the array is going to be Bi-amped and XO'd by a SB Audigy and KX drivers so it will be easy integrating either option with the NSB's. I would really like to go with a single driver for the highs to keep cost and labor down to a minimum, but I just cant make up my mind.
Mr. Griffin, please help me before I go insane
.
TIA,
MEXXX
BTW, the array is going to be Bi-amped and XO'd by a SB Audigy and KX drivers so it will be easy integrating either option with the NSB's. I would really like to go with a single driver for the highs to keep cost and labor down to a minimum, but I just cant make up my mind.
Mr. Griffin, please help me before I go insane
.TIA,
MEXXX
Odd, those McIntosh arrays look like an array of horizontal MTM's
Anyone care to venture a guess as to why they would do that?
(Here's my guess: Look at all the drivers you get with ours! 😀 )
Anyone care to venture a guess as to why they would do that?
(Here's my guess: Look at all the drivers you get with ours! 😀 )
Thoughts About Needles Design
I recently answered an e-mail on the Needles which deals with your question so here are my thoughts from that message:
The Needles uses a single ribbon tweeter so they operate in both near field for the small woofers and in the far field for the tweeter. In regard to the ribbon tweeter operating in the far field:
Technically, that is correct but remember that a ribbon tweeter like the Aurum-Cantus G3 has limited vertical dispersion so it functions as a mini-line source within its vertical dimension. The Needles would work the best wherein your listening distance is in the 8-16 feet distance range which is where the power radiated by the line of woofers best balance with the ribbon tweeter. The Needles would not be the best solution if you have a large room and listeners are distributed both close and far distances from the sources. This is in contrast to line arrays that operate entirely within the near field for both their woofer and tweeter arrays. In the full range near field design you would have good balance throughput the entire room.
Bottom line the Needles have excellent performance but you have to merge what they do best with your listening room and musical taste. In reality most speakers have you consider many of these same tradeoffs.
The Needles would work great in a situtation such as with a projection screen between them. If you are implementing home theater with multiple channels, I would suggest that you try a phantom center channel approach. A line array--especially
in the near field--will generate a wider coverage for the image between the two speakers so you likely could live with the no center channel tradeoff.
Jim
I recently answered an e-mail on the Needles which deals with your question so here are my thoughts from that message:
The Needles uses a single ribbon tweeter so they operate in both near field for the small woofers and in the far field for the tweeter. In regard to the ribbon tweeter operating in the far field:
Technically, that is correct but remember that a ribbon tweeter like the Aurum-Cantus G3 has limited vertical dispersion so it functions as a mini-line source within its vertical dimension. The Needles would work the best wherein your listening distance is in the 8-16 feet distance range which is where the power radiated by the line of woofers best balance with the ribbon tweeter. The Needles would not be the best solution if you have a large room and listeners are distributed both close and far distances from the sources. This is in contrast to line arrays that operate entirely within the near field for both their woofer and tweeter arrays. In the full range near field design you would have good balance throughput the entire room.
Bottom line the Needles have excellent performance but you have to merge what they do best with your listening room and musical taste. In reality most speakers have you consider many of these same tradeoffs.
The Needles would work great in a situtation such as with a projection screen between them. If you are implementing home theater with multiple channels, I would suggest that you try a phantom center channel approach. A line array--especially
in the near field--will generate a wider coverage for the image between the two speakers so you likely could live with the no center channel tradeoff.
Jim
Jim...
I would be interested in your thoughts on the McIntosh XRT series... especially from the standpoint of the physics/combing and other shortcomings (that I can't ever seem to notice). The drivers are about 4" or slightly less and close to ~4-1/2~4-3/4 centers. I would estimate that the columns are 10 or 11 inches.
I would be interested in your thoughts on the McIntosh XRT series... especially from the standpoint of the physics/combing and other shortcomings (that I can't ever seem to notice). The drivers are about 4" or slightly less and close to ~4-1/2~4-3/4 centers. I would estimate that the columns are 10 or 11 inches.
German Needles!
Hello,
do you know this?
http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/fullrange/msg.php?idx=15219
There you can see Cyburgs Needles.
There exists also variations with the TangBand W3-871S
And in the German Magazine Hobby-Hifi there ist an unfolded TML with the TangBand called Lancetta. Thats Italian and means Needle!
Hello,
do you know this?
http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/fullrange/msg.php?idx=15219
There you can see Cyburgs Needles.
There exists also variations with the TangBand W3-871S
And in the German Magazine Hobby-Hifi there ist an unfolded TML with the TangBand called Lancetta. Thats Italian and means Needle!
Member
Joined 2004
How about a full range line array with these pretty puppies?
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=WR125S
A bit on the pricy side but you won't need to spend any money on expensive inductors and audiophile caps for a crossover...
or tweeters for that matter... 🙂
You can buy 12 pairs for $1656 (they may offer a bulk discount) for a 5' line.
Man, if I were to do it again, I might consider them.
Sealed of course with a nice IB sub and you're ALL set! 🙂
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=WR125S
A bit on the pricy side but you won't need to spend any money on expensive inductors and audiophile caps for a crossover...
or tweeters for that matter... 🙂
You can buy 12 pairs for $1656 (they may offer a bulk discount) for a 5' line.
Man, if I were to do it again, I might consider them.
Sealed of course with a nice IB sub and you're ALL set! 🙂
Member
Joined 2004
Mazeroth,
To answer your PM, I used these woofers (8 per side):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-324&DID=7
and these tweeters (6 per side):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-713
Active crossover and parametric equalizer duties are handled by this wonderful machine:
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Each side is powered by this pro amp:
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/135168.pdf
Another good midwoof driver to use in a two way line array would be this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=295-362&DID=7
Good price but you'd have to cross it over at 1kHz (or maybe lower) due to the well known metal breakup modes...
To answer your PM, I used these woofers (8 per side):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-324&DID=7
and these tweeters (6 per side):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-713
Active crossover and parametric equalizer duties are handled by this wonderful machine:
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Each side is powered by this pro amp:
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/135168.pdf
Another good midwoof driver to use in a two way line array would be this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=295-362&DID=7
Good price but you'd have to cross it over at 1kHz (or maybe lower) due to the well known metal breakup modes...
Full Range Line Array
The small Creative Sound drivers (or any other small full or near range drivers for that matter) should not be used full range in a line array. You will need a tweeter line as explained in my Near Field Line Array white paper. The problem with the CSS drivers is that you will have to address the cone break-up reasonaces plus the comb lining issues--loss of directivity (gain) and off axis issues as frequency increases. It would get ugly across the upper two octaves (5-10K and 10-20K Hz).
Jim
Near Field Line Array white paper
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf
The small Creative Sound drivers (or any other small full or near range drivers for that matter) should not be used full range in a line array. You will need a tweeter line as explained in my Near Field Line Array white paper. The problem with the CSS drivers is that you will have to address the cone break-up reasonaces plus the comb lining issues--loss of directivity (gain) and off axis issues as frequency increases. It would get ugly across the upper two octaves (5-10K and 10-20K Hz).
Jim
Near Field Line Array white paper
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf
A couple of line array questions
A couple of line array questions.
First, for line arrays, what degree of driver matching do you need to do?
Second, If you don't have a floor to ceiling array, do your outside drivers bloom to create high incident floor and ceiling reflection?
Thanks.
A couple of line array questions.
First, for line arrays, what degree of driver matching do you need to do?
Second, If you don't have a floor to ceiling array, do your outside drivers bloom to create high incident floor and ceiling reflection?
Thanks.
"Are the enclosures sealed or ported?"
The answer is yes and yes. Let me explain. When I designed the box I did so that it could be either sealed or ported. Thus it could be used with either a port or sealed configuration. In the design the 16 TB W3-871S are grouped in to 4 groups of 4 drivers in each box with a vent for each 4. In my prototypes I originally ported all groups but after listening for a while I sealed the top and bottom groups and left the port open on the the inner two groups.
Dwain, I'll answer your e-mail off line.
Jim
The answer is yes and yes. Let me explain. When I designed the box I did so that it could be either sealed or ported. Thus it could be used with either a port or sealed configuration. In the design the 16 TB W3-871S are grouped in to 4 groups of 4 drivers in each box with a vent for each 4. In my prototypes I originally ported all groups but after listening for a while I sealed the top and bottom groups and left the port open on the the inner two groups.
Dwain, I'll answer your e-mail off line.
Jim
Re: A couple of line array questions
As for your second question a line array will limit vertical dispersion.
So i'd assume that floor to ceiling reflections would be greatly attenuated even more so if you have carpet. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Alot of people seem to like line arrays. I myself haven't listened to any line arrays except this one.
http://www.mdesignlife.com/productPage.asp?pin=2236
I wasn't impressed at all. I listened to them for only a few minutes though, at Ultimate Electronics with my own music.
Something just wasn't right they sounded a bit thin. And there was something wrong with imaging the center channel kept faultering.
Maybe its just another overhyped monster product. I honestly preferred the sound of $1000 Kef bookshelfs at the same store instead of this $9500 monstrousity.
I really want to listen to some of the Mcintosh line arrays though, they seem to be really solidily engineered.
mbutzkies said:
As for your second question a line array will limit vertical dispersion.
So i'd assume that floor to ceiling reflections would be greatly attenuated even more so if you have carpet. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Alot of people seem to like line arrays. I myself haven't listened to any line arrays except this one.
http://www.mdesignlife.com/productPage.asp?pin=2236
I wasn't impressed at all. I listened to them for only a few minutes though, at Ultimate Electronics with my own music.
Something just wasn't right they sounded a bit thin. And there was something wrong with imaging the center channel kept faultering.
Maybe its just another overhyped monster product. I honestly preferred the sound of $1000 Kef bookshelfs at the same store instead of this $9500 monstrousity.
I really want to listen to some of the Mcintosh line arrays though, they seem to be really solidily engineered.
Line array
My large DIY BG dipoles act as a quasi line source... and I've gotta say after 40+ years of many-speaker projects, from 40 Hz up, they are tight, image superbly througout my large llistening room, and beat the sound of the Mac XRT series and most other non-planar arrays I've heard hands down.
In fact the image is so stable, you can walk through the image, i.e., with well recorded material, it's as if the (band, soloist, singer, orchestra) stayed in the ssame dspace and you walked through the sound, between the spekers sounds like you're in the band.. as you walk past them the image sounds as though it's behind you with the same spatial relationships... quite uncanny.
Wife and friends have experienced the same thing. The low end is augmented with a 4.5ft^3 cylindrical Titanic DIY subwoofer tuned to 19 Hz and judiciously placed to integrate well and minimize room modes.
auplater
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=642400&stamp=1116116806
My large DIY BG dipoles act as a quasi line source... and I've gotta say after 40+ years of many-speaker projects, from 40 Hz up, they are tight, image superbly througout my large llistening room, and beat the sound of the Mac XRT series and most other non-planar arrays I've heard hands down.
In fact the image is so stable, you can walk through the image, i.e., with well recorded material, it's as if the (band, soloist, singer, orchestra) stayed in the ssame dspace and you walked through the sound, between the spekers sounds like you're in the band.. as you walk past them the image sounds as though it's behind you with the same spatial relationships... quite uncanny.
Wife and friends have experienced the same thing. The low end is augmented with a 4.5ft^3 cylindrical Titanic DIY subwoofer tuned to 19 Hz and judiciously placed to integrate well and minimize room modes.
auplater
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=642400&stamp=1116116806
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