Vapor Audio has been getting very good comments for the sound of their speakers. Running searches here returns several comments about how they build their cabinets, but not much more than that.
Looking at the Nimbus Black, a couple points caught my attention:
Looking at the Nimbus Black, a couple points caught my attention:
- Wavecor 6" midrange: I don't find comments about these drivers here. Anyone has an opinion? Ryan Scott (owner of Vapor Audio) uses RAAL tweeters and Acoustic Elegance woofers, so he's not looking to cheap out on drivers when he goes for the Wavecor.
- Fairly large-spaced MTM. Runs against the grain of a commonly held paradigm here that MTM has to be done with small spacings between drivers. A quick measurement of the pictures I find online suggests 17" between centers of the two midrange drivers. Here is a well documented thread with TD10 used in MTM http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/132884-10-mtm-neopro5i-ribbon-build-thread-13.html (page 13, post 126 is where the conclusions are) where the large spacing is demanded by the 10" drivers, of course, and the design didn't work. FWIW, the crossover between the midranges and tweeter is 2500Hz.
Well, here in the USA, there's precious little to choose from and fairly pricey, but at a glance it appears to be a quality product.
MTM spacing is usually based on listening distance in reality since the ideal < 1/3 WL or even the 'accepted' 1 WL of the XO point is often impractical and/or requires a Unity-Synergy concept WG to properly implement.
GM
MTM spacing is usually based on listening distance in reality since the ideal < 1/3 WL or even the 'accepted' 1 WL of the XO point is often impractical and/or requires a Unity-Synergy concept WG to properly implement.
GM
Ribbons ideally need 'heart attack' fast match-ups, so low Qt line arrays, compression radial horns. One of the saddest misuse of a ribbon I've ever auditioned was a Raven/Vifa ~6" in a ~0.7 Qtc sealed prefab PE cab. Even sadder was it got good reviews, both before and after some more BSC was applied at my behest to reduce its 'shrillness', so what do I know 🙁.
Haven't auditioned the Beyma, but I imagine once shelved down to do a typical cone MTM it will sound similar to the Raven in that much of its 'life' will have been sucked out, leaving only its HF 'sparkle', in which case might as well use a dedicated ribbon [super] tweeter.
So....... with a 6 dB BSC [max shelving], 96 dB eff. H.E. drivers seems the minimum for a MTM and with an 80 x 30 pattern, using smaller drivers in horizontal arrays for the mids to get both a good horizontal polar match and at least a decent vertical overlap and XO spacing is what I'd do.
GM
I would go over the the Parts Express forum and talk to Pete Schumacher who is Ryan's partner in Vapor Audio. Nice guy and has used the TPL150H in a project.
By "shelved", do you mean reduced the sensitivity to match that of the midrange? If so, no, in my case it will be a 4-way active system. I'm shooting to have a 45 SET amp directly driving the TPL. And ideally another one driving the midrange.
By BSC I assume you mean baffle step compensation. The baffle step will be handled by the midbass drivers, not the midrange. The baffle will be approx 14" wide.
Which drivers would you suggest for the horizontal array?
BTW, at 2500Hz the wavelength is 13.8cm long. Alternatively, at 2000Hz it is 17.3cm long. The TPL is 23cm high. Tough to even keep the center-to-center within a full wavelength.
Here is an efficient 6: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...accuton-c173-6-090-6.5-ceramic-cone-midrange/ 🙂
And a much more reasonable choice: Dayton Audio PM180-8 6-1/2" Wideband Midbass Neo Driver
And a much more reasonable choice: Dayton Audio PM180-8 6-1/2" Wideband Midbass Neo Driver
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re:'Wavecor 6" midrange" - I've got a pair of these and they're damn good, will go very low in a big box & good sound overall - my next project is a small 3 way using these as woofers
Just to clarify, this is the driver I'm talking about:
Soundlabs Group 6.25in. - 4 Ohm - Ferrite - WF160WA02'
I believe these are now discontinued, but still available locally here. Good value at AUD50.
Soundlabs Group 6.25in. - 4 Ohm - Ferrite - WF160WA02'
I believe these are now discontinued, but still available locally here. Good value at AUD50.
The only Wavecor drivers I got to hear are the WF182 and WF152 (they are touted to have something called "balanced drive" what ever that is). Both mid-woofers performed well. I did not care too much for the Wavecor tweeters or the heavy cone 8" subwoofer though. This was 2011-12.
I believe Audio Physics uses Wavecor too and from all accounts Allan at Wavecor is a good chap to work with. Hope this helps.
Thanks Face. The two top on my short list are B&W FST and PHL. Problem is the latter doesn't publish curves and measurements are tough to come by. Zaph measured the FST: Zaph|Audio - Page2RSS
Hey Navin. Following what Vapor seems to be doing, the ones I'm looking into are WF152, which have the Balanced Drive you mention. You have good memory...I wouldn't know the model of something I heard 3 or 4 years ago!
Anyway, what is your recollection of the WF152 as dedicated midrange driver? FWIW, my benchmark is B&W FST midrange.
Wavecor is highly regarded here in Europe, excellent build quality and top reviews. Unfortunately the price also went up accordingly. 😀
They now even do a new series with phase plug (quite expensive and not yet listed on the home page): Wavecor WF152CU14
They now even do a new series with phase plug (quite expensive and not yet listed on the home page): Wavecor WF152CU14
I linked elswhere in one of your thread a measurement made by V Dickason about a PHL 6.5" which have a flat 100 dB in the main 1000 to 2000 hZ in a sealed enclosure.
But I think the same like GM member by listening experience : marching between a cone and fast horn/ribbon is difficult (to the ear I mean !).
At least it seems some do it. You can ask e.g. Juhazi member which blend a Beyma 12" in raw OB with a planar Neo 8 PDR without ears problem, but XO is much lower : around 800 hZ if I remember ! xrq971 with a AMT ESS V1 with a dayton at 900 hZ ! (does he play loud with a so low XO ?).
the damping and cone material could be a problem matching a soft damped paper cone with a higly parkle planar (full of détails is not the best bet maybe; that's why I favor a treated paper à la Aerogel from Audax or the equivalent by PHL Audio !
It has no sense to blend, even in active a low spl driver with a high spl one ! better to go with a Neo 3 tweeter (if you can find it : soon it will be non sourcable anymore) at 2 k Hz ImhO ! (look at zaph measurements) and you can go both back plated or OB with it like the Beyma ! Could you be more happy with that (both the wavecore & Neo 3) with a SET... I don't know, but I have a friend happy with a 2A3 SET and two MTM with Vifa !
AMT seems less problematic above 5k... some will say they are no problem lower !
But I think the same like GM member by listening experience : marching between a cone and fast horn/ribbon is difficult (to the ear I mean !).
At least it seems some do it. You can ask e.g. Juhazi member which blend a Beyma 12" in raw OB with a planar Neo 8 PDR without ears problem, but XO is much lower : around 800 hZ if I remember ! xrq971 with a AMT ESS V1 with a dayton at 900 hZ ! (does he play loud with a so low XO ?).
the damping and cone material could be a problem matching a soft damped paper cone with a higly parkle planar (full of détails is not the best bet maybe; that's why I favor a treated paper à la Aerogel from Audax or the equivalent by PHL Audio !
It has no sense to blend, even in active a low spl driver with a high spl one ! better to go with a Neo 3 tweeter (if you can find it : soon it will be non sourcable anymore) at 2 k Hz ImhO ! (look at zaph measurements) and you can go both back plated or OB with it like the Beyma ! Could you be more happy with that (both the wavecore & Neo 3) with a SET... I don't know, but I have a friend happy with a 2A3 SET and two MTM with Vifa !
AMT seems less problematic above 5k... some will say they are no problem lower !
The key to making a large-separation MTM to work is to use a "tweeter" driver that can be crossed pretty low. 2500Hz is NOT low and unforunately this arrangement will result in a very large "hole" in the response off axis, and this has been shown to result in a "colored" sound. It's certainly possible that you and others will prefer that "color" and maybe not, but it won't be neutral. The very best loudspeakers are designed to be neutral so that they reproduce the audio recording faithfully.
OTOH, if the crossover point was made very low, for instance 500-700Hz (almost impossible except using a small fullrange driver as the "tweeter"), then even with 10" "M" drivers you can still get a reasonable pattern from the loudspeakers without off-axis response holes. Maybe the designers never bothered to look at the off axis response?
I built an MTM that uses a pair of 7" midwoofers and a 2" fullrange driver that has good HF extension (on and off axis) so that it can function as a real tweeter yet can be crossed over "low", which for my MTM means 750Hz. I previously was not a fan of MTMs, because most had the woofers spaced too wide and, as a result, a crossover point that to the tweeter was too high for the spacing. My speaker, which I guess you could call an MFM (F=fullranger), really sounds great and seems to address many of the problems that I had with existing MTM designs. The biggest challenge is to find an "F" type driver that has high enough sensitivity, low enough distortion, and good high frequency extension. There are very few!
I have heard proponents of poorly designed MTM systems (with wide M-M spacings) say "oh its a feature that limits reflections off of the floor and ceiling. This is simply a load of crap, because it is exactly these reflections that give "space" and "ambience" to a recording.
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We have done 3 MTM this way (XOs fall between 250-350 Hz). They work well.
dave
Could the Neo6S (with its height) planar could be such a MFM ? XO at 600 or 800 hZ ? very good for 10" drivers blend, also as a simple MF !
But is there not a mismatch between the air brassed with such big drivers (10" or worst: 12") and little drivers (2", 3") in MFM around XO frequencies (at least with steep filter ?)
But is there not a mismatch between the air brassed with such big drivers (10" or worst: 12") and little drivers (2", 3") in MFM around XO frequencies (at least with steep filter ?)
Not familiar with that... what brand is it? Can you post a link to the spec sheet, etc?
Yeap, this is the commonly held paradigm I have seen several times referred to here. I guess you imply the Vapor Nimbus is colored and people liking it must like said coloring. Maybe.
FWIW, the Nimbus crosses the MTM at 2500Hz over to a pair of 6" midranges that seem to be fairly spaced around a Raal ribbon (clearly more than the 14cm wavelength at 2500Hz). Puzzling!
I find it surprising how many commercial MTM systems have these IMHO too high of a crossover point for their M-M spacing, and even WMT systems sometimes have questionably high M-T crossover points. In the Vapor Audio speaker, not only are the mids widely separated for the crossover point, the ribbon itself is large and will beam strongly at high frequencies. With just one look at the system and knowledge of the crossover point I can say without ever hearing it that the sound of the loudspeaker in a room is quite likely "colored". If someone likes the system they are not "wrong" - people are free to buy what they want. Maybe the artistic statement of the loudspeaker trumps any performance issues, and maybe people just want some bling to show off. This would work well in that regard.
On the other hand, given the research findings in the past 10-15 years about loudspeaker directivity and listener preference, this type of system is certainly not what I would design, nor would I advise someone to copy the design. I would even go as far as to call it sonically "flawed". The theme I perceive here, which I see often, is to take some very expensive drivers and put them in some sexy sculpted box. As well all know, sex sells.
Better sound will likely be had from a speaker in a rectangular box that is well planned and executed. Here is one example:
LSR6332 Products | JBL Professional
Pic of the boxy, non sexy, yet superior loudspeaker:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What is this? A boring cone midrange and a little conventional dome tweeter? How can that sound good? Where's the bling?
Sure, the speaker doesn't look very exciting, but the measurements show that is has excellent on and off-axis performance and smooth, controlled directivity:
Given the JBL pedigree, other performance metrics like distortion are also quite good (see link). I haven't heard this speaker (either), but the data on it speaks volumes about it's potential sound quality.
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