Hi,
I'm looking into making a line source/Array speaker for my home gym/man cave for 3 main reasons
The room size is small, only 3.2 by 8.5 m and 2.4 m high (so 2300 cuft) so should be easy to 'pressurize'. I currently have a 30" Tuba HT loaded with a 15" RSS390 driver.
The budget would be below 1000 euro (excluding amplification and mini dsp which I already have).
The woofers I'm doubting about the very cheap GRS 4AS-4 which is only 5,8 euro or the more expensive Dayton TCP 115-4 which is 15 euro (about 3 times as much!).
The tweeters is the one I'm doubting most, as they need to be as 'close' together as possible. I would in that case think planar or ribbon tweeters are best as you can mount them without any spacing? Planar is cheaper though, the Dayton PT mini 6 would be 14 euro per piece.
BUT it's only 8 cm high, and I read somewhere I need at least 80cm of tweeters? So that's 140 euro minimum. How long should the tweeter line be, if the speaker line will be about 2.2 m long?
And could I use another tweeter which is cheaper and does the job equally good or better?
I'm looking into making a line source/Array speaker for my home gym/man cave for 3 main reasons
- my wife would never allow me to build floor to ceiling speakers in the living room
- I mainly listen to music, and line source/array seems like a good speaker for that (I love the Infinity IRS speakers)
- The sound level in the gym would be everywhere the same, which is nice
The room size is small, only 3.2 by 8.5 m and 2.4 m high (so 2300 cuft) so should be easy to 'pressurize'. I currently have a 30" Tuba HT loaded with a 15" RSS390 driver.
The budget would be below 1000 euro (excluding amplification and mini dsp which I already have).
The woofers I'm doubting about the very cheap GRS 4AS-4 which is only 5,8 euro or the more expensive Dayton TCP 115-4 which is 15 euro (about 3 times as much!).
The tweeters is the one I'm doubting most, as they need to be as 'close' together as possible. I would in that case think planar or ribbon tweeters are best as you can mount them without any spacing? Planar is cheaper though, the Dayton PT mini 6 would be 14 euro per piece.
BUT it's only 8 cm high, and I read somewhere I need at least 80cm of tweeters? So that's 140 euro minimum. How long should the tweeter line be, if the speaker line will be about 2.2 m long?
And could I use another tweeter which is cheaper and does the job equally good or better?
All you need to know for an array like that can be found in: https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
(including the length of the tweeter line)
As I'm a line array aficionado I'd say: pick the driver you like, as you'll get it back on steroids!
What i mean by that is: if a driver has some faults of it's own, they will get magnified when you use it in an array.
(including the length of the tweeter line)
As I'm a line array aficionado I'd say: pick the driver you like, as you'll get it back on steroids!
What i mean by that is: if a driver has some faults of it's own, they will get magnified when you use it in an array.
Thanks! I have indeed read this and almost all topics related to it on this forum. There are indeed 2 options, choosing a better full range driver so you can spend the full budget on them (i prefer scanspeak or peerless but they are pricey) or buy sligthly cheaper "mid bass" (mini sub) woofers and tweeters.
It's cheaper buying the full range ones but all my speakers have tweeters, min 3 way, so not sure I will like the sound. You also have more combing as they are further apart compared to small tweeters, and not sure 1 driver can be as good below as on highs compared to a dedicated driver.
I would buy first 1 driver of each which I consider to test before buying 40 of them, but I can not test how the combing will be, neither te eq effect on a lot of drivers. I will have huge headroom with 40 drivers so should be able to eq a lot of the peaks out...
I'm not trying to sway you towards full range arrays 😀.
I'm just saying: take the best tweeter you like, even if it's a little more expensive.
But first make sure you like what you get. Indeed buy samples...
Measure them and put them into that nifty little program called VituixCAD. I don't regret the time I spend learning that program.
FIR filters would be more practical with arrays. Don't just EQ out all of the peaks, first learn what the array does, and what part
we have to blame the room. EQ above modal range should be speaker correction, not room correction.
A program like VituixCAD can be invaluable for such information. Even though I had 5 years worth of measurements under my belt,
I still learned new stuff just by simulating the array. Highly recommended!
P.S. Here's a little write-up why arrays do what they do....
I'm just saying: take the best tweeter you like, even if it's a little more expensive.
But first make sure you like what you get. Indeed buy samples...
Measure them and put them into that nifty little program called VituixCAD. I don't regret the time I spend learning that program.
FIR filters would be more practical with arrays. Don't just EQ out all of the peaks, first learn what the array does, and what part
we have to blame the room. EQ above modal range should be speaker correction, not room correction.
A program like VituixCAD can be invaluable for such information. Even though I had 5 years worth of measurements under my belt,
I still learned new stuff just by simulating the array. Highly recommended!
P.S. Here's a little write-up why arrays do what they do....
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My take on a full range line array is the Modified CBT24 detailed in:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/313352-line-array-modified-cbt24.html
It clicks the near constant sound level in a large room. The arrays are full range drivers that cover above 120 Hz and upward in frequency while subwoofers supply the sound below 120 Hz.
The Modified CBT24 does cost more than your budget but it will satisfy your needs.
I'm the same guy who wrote the NFLAWP almost 20 years ago which was referenced earlier in this thread..
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/313352-line-array-modified-cbt24.html
It clicks the near constant sound level in a large room. The arrays are full range drivers that cover above 120 Hz and upward in frequency while subwoofers supply the sound below 120 Hz.
The Modified CBT24 does cost more than your budget but it will satisfy your needs.
I'm the same guy who wrote the NFLAWP almost 20 years ago which was referenced earlier in this thread..
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Thanks! I indeed read your topics and the famous white paper. Beautiful builds! The full range has the advantage of 'simplicity', no cross overs and I can use the mini DSP 2x4 to EQ the subwoofers and the speakers.
Would indeed like to know your advice. I am used to the sound of my 3 way Piega speakers, they use a big planar for the mids and highs, but I'm open for suggestions and to try a full range. I listen mainly to rap, hip-hop, dance, classical (bach, ... more the 'heavy' one), heavy metal and pop (michael jackson, ...). The sound level is around 90db measured at my 'listening positions' while working out.
Would indeed like to know your advice. I am used to the sound of my 3 way Piega speakers, they use a big planar for the mids and highs, but I'm open for suggestions and to try a full range. I listen mainly to rap, hip-hop, dance, classical (bach, ... more the 'heavy' one), heavy metal and pop (michael jackson, ...). The sound level is around 90db measured at my 'listening positions' while working out.
I would definitely like to try out this idea (it allows reducing the number of speakers): https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...rs-to-sparse-line-arrays.338698/#post-5811312
Now I already have enough 3FE22s, but not enough time unfortunately...
Now I already have enough 3FE22s, but not enough time unfortunately...
If you wish to build a straight full range driver line array, wesayso (Ronald) has a great mega thread for his adventures with an inexpensive driver. See details at:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ers-a-25-driver-full-range-line-array.242171/
Highly recommended with much info and discussion in that thread.
I can not compare your Piega 3 way speakers to a line array as this brand of speakers is not actively sold in the USA.
Both my Modified CBT24 and Ronald's Twin Towers would have have nearly constant volume falloff in your space. Essentially, in the near field they radiate with 3 dB sound falloff per doubling of distance from the source. Your Piega speakers are point sources so they exhibit 6 dB falloff per doubling of distance.
Finally, a well designed (and expensive) 2 way line array tower could sound better than arrays with full range drivers. You still need subwoofers for adequate bass with either design. I designed such a beast once upon a time with Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters and small woofers with an active DSP crossover. See this photo:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ers-a-25-driver-full-range-line-array.242171/
Highly recommended with much info and discussion in that thread.
I can not compare your Piega 3 way speakers to a line array as this brand of speakers is not actively sold in the USA.
Both my Modified CBT24 and Ronald's Twin Towers would have have nearly constant volume falloff in your space. Essentially, in the near field they radiate with 3 dB sound falloff per doubling of distance from the source. Your Piega speakers are point sources so they exhibit 6 dB falloff per doubling of distance.
Finally, a well designed (and expensive) 2 way line array tower could sound better than arrays with full range drivers. You still need subwoofers for adequate bass with either design. I designed such a beast once upon a time with Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters and small woofers with an active DSP crossover. See this photo:
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I’ve wanted to build a line source using AMT29, The accuton 168 annular magnet mids. With drivers like those, I would think it would be pretty fast but don’t completely understand if the dispersion characteristics of those specific Accuton mids would work. Also, there’s the financial aspect of the whole thing but fantasies can one day become reality who knows.
Your choice of drivers for a line array project would be exceptional units for a two-way line array. For a line array approach with these drivers you would need 8 or 9 each of the AMT29s and the Accuton 168s per side. At current costs these drivers are likely not affordable for DIY speaker builders. I suggest that you think about your design and consider lower cost drivers. See my NFLAWP to ascertain more design details--lengths (or number of units) you would need and such.
While I have your attention, have you heard Piega
It was just a “fantasy” in reality i’m looking at a matched pair of bliesma t34b for around 650 which to me has got to be a steal, and probably an MTM with Oberton Mids. You seem to know your, well i’m from boston but can’t say it on here. I don’t have the electrical engineering chops to design a crossover around 1400-1600hz but my father does he had a recording studio in Boston area from 1979-1992 and then taught it (recording) at Berklee and Northeastern. He goes for the flattest best dispersion monitor types, while I like the holographic, touch the sound as it makes its way around type of thing. Anyhow, as a line source authority I must ask any opinions about both the Piega MLS2 or 3 or the big one, and the T+A cwt 1000-40 I think it is, but the one with big aluminum outer baffle cover thing
I apologize for mentioning Brands i’m new to this site and not very experienced in participating in forums. Just read the rules and I will abide, just very curious about all of this. I do not own that brand, I have a MTM with a ribbon tweeter made by an english brand that were closer to my price range. All of these questions involving various “luxurious” OEM drivers are for understanding if my “cost no object” ideas are realities.
thats a tough room so before you decide on a design, consider the space first…….there’s some inexpensive treatments you can apply first to assure the best outcome possible. For starters at 8.5 meters in length, you’re going to need to treat the wall opposite the speaker placement for sure…….absorption and diffraction. I’d also treat behind the speaker placement and at least one side wall reflection point. Arrays will eliminate the need to treat the ceiling or floor.
If it were me, given the dimensions of your space being so deep and yet a narrow stage, I’m doubtful a DIY approach could outperform a pair of Magnepan 1.7s and a capable central subwoofer if you put a value to your time and effort.
If it were me, given the dimensions of your space being so deep and yet a narrow stage, I’m doubtful a DIY approach could outperform a pair of Magnepan 1.7s and a capable central subwoofer if you put a value to your time and effort.