navin said:
The Jordan 50 mm module heritage lives on in the Bandor 60mm unit and the Jordan JX53.
TB & HiVi Research both have a number of 2" drivers that cost much less. (HiVi has some 1" to0). JBL/Harmon Kardon make the 25 mm & 35mm Odessy FRs, but you would have to be creative to find them.
dave
thylantyr said:
Yes you are 🙂 Junt kidding. No I am too mad for any such messages to get to me My wife usually has to hit me with a frying pan to get through. last time she asked me to get eye makeup remover, i got her skin firming cream (hey they were both from Nivea so I got that part right).
i live in India none of these drivers are available here. I might be one of very few DIYers here and maybe one of only a handful in Bombay (which has close to 20 million people).
I quite agree that 4 $12 units might not sound as good as 1 $50 unit but 4 x TB871 have one advantage over the Bandor 50mm - SPLs at low freq. they move air. it is that simple.
However the line source I am looking at must be capable of going as low as 100Hz (100db would be nice but I dont expect to drive them about 95db at 2 m), efficient enough to do this with a 10W SE amp, must be 1.5 way at best, and be used as a full range for rear and center channels.
got any ideas? Tall order?
What lures people to use 10 watt SE amplifiers?
I've never been interested in low power amplifiers,
am I missing some kind of sonic boat ? I prefer high power
bridged monster amps - opposite side of the fence - hehe
I've run out of crazy suggestions. Only you can find
sonic happiness, the life long audio quest.
Do you commute to from India to Fremont ? or ... are you
in these two places at once 😎
I've never been interested in low power amplifiers,
am I missing some kind of sonic boat ? I prefer high power
bridged monster amps - opposite side of the fence - hehe
I've run out of crazy suggestions. Only you can find
sonic happiness, the life long audio quest.
Do you commute to from India to Fremont ? or ... are you
in these two places at once 😎
Having heard the TangBand W3-871S in a 1.5 BR configuration and Jordan JX92S in a BSC BR side by side, at moderate SPLs the TB sounds 'close enough' like the JX down to ~100Hz, where they were tuned to roll off to keep them fairly linear. Indeed, when I first entered the room I thought the Jordan's were playing since I was already familiar with them.
Four in a 1.5 BR would allow pushing them ~linearly to ~70Hz/~98dB/m/2W. Roll three of them off based on the baffle/room.
GM
thylantyr said:
i commute. it is a long ride. there are 2 ways i go.
bombay-frankfurt-newyork-sjc-fremont in summer since i have friends in frankfurt (I lived there in 92-93) and an apt in NY.
bombay-singapore-seoul-sfo-fremont in winter to avoind the winters in frankfurt and nyc and i have a sister in sing. so i get to see her too.
GM said:
Dude, you been there, done that! You my guru. what you say is right. 1.5 way with 4 or 5 TBs is seeming to make sense.
now i get another idea.
what if we do a 1.5 way using 2 TBs full range on the front baffle and 2 TBs rolled of on the rear baffle (BSC)? At what point will i expect comb? 4k, 8k, 16k?
this way i can go push push between the 4 TBs.
alternately ony one Tb on the front is full range but then the second TB on the front baffle might be out of phase with the 2 TBs on the rear baffle so I am confused.
dave, 7V, GM help!!!!!!! *I am so confused* Vinni Barbarino rises again!
You have to know your history, thylantyr.thylantyr said:
The vogue for low power amplifiers started in the North of England. In those days, most homes would keep a goat whose function was to work a treadmill to drive the electricity generator. It was a good way of converting waste matter into electricity.
Now a 10 watt SE amplifier was known as a "one goat system" because a single goat could just about manage the amplifier and a turntable.
Now, purist audiophiles in those days were driving their turntables directly from the treadmill to avoid electricity and this necessitated the use of a quite weighty flywheel (to maintain a low "wow and flutter", as it was called). Unfortunately, this led to a number of goats to keel over and die, particularly during the more complex orchestral pieces (remember that 78 rpm was the norm in those days). Eventually, the British government stepped in and banned the use of goats for this purpose.
The oxen that replaced them were far more powerful and thus started the modern vogue for higher output amplifiers.
I hope that this clarifies the question a little.
That's amazing navin. I absolutely loved India when I visited some years ago and it sounds like you have the best of all worlds.navin said:
Does your job allow you to work in both places or are you lucky enough to spend all your time playing with speakers?
- like me 😀
navin said:
Now you're talking, navin. I've been giving this one considerable thought myself.
Firstly, the high frequencies emitting from the rear baffle wouldn't diffract around the baffle to the front but would go rearwards (open baffle style).
So, perhaps you could use the comb effect by deliberately wide-spacing the rear drivers so that the high frequencies are reduced (of course the front drivers should be as close together as possible). This could be very interesting and so, if there's any mileage in it, I want full credit. Let history recall ....
Back to reality (when are they going to deliver my new pills?) ...
As an aside, navin. You could do well to visit FRD Consortium - Vertical Polar Response Line Array. You can learn a lot playing with this software.
Also, if the front and rear baffles are symetrical, the rear waves that found their way to the front could exactly compensate for the baffle step.
Problems? Well, there could be a bit too much energy in the midrange (firing to the rear). I think this would be the same as with an open-baffle design but I'm no expert.
However, I'm always looking for ways to get rid of passive components and I think that the above is worthy of more consideration. With my own speaker development, I'm playing with a partial solution like this where three Bandors are front-facing and one faces rearwards - but of course this is all top secret. 😉
7V said:
Drop me a line if you visit again. just be sure i am in the country. i work both sides, both coasts, a bit in Europe and Sing too. I have 2 jobs. One as Director Technology of Elektromag (http://www.emagindia.com) and the other as Director Operations of Novitaz (http://www.novitaz.com). I also have a wife, kid, inlaws, outlaws, 3 apts to keep, so i find little time for my hobbies -photography, tennis, skiing, music, audio. Life is busy but fun. At time I really have trouble wondering which country i am in. I have been doing this for over 10 years and am tiring. age is finally catching up.
I think it was Thylantyr who mentioned the ExcelArray in an earlier post, has anyone heard or built GR Research's Alpha LS array?
http://www.gr-research.com/AlphaLS/Alpha.htm
Be interested to hear any comments...
J.
http://www.gr-research.com/AlphaLS/Alpha.htm
Be interested to hear any comments...
J.
JimmyC said:
Over time, I hear testimonials on
the Madisound.com forum where
people say that Neo 8's lack top end.
One recent discussion found here;
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=260126
thylantyr,
All of the B-G Ribbons Roll Off the top well before 20Khz. The large
pannels tend to do it worse than the Neo.. Check out the BG FR
Plots on www.partsexpress.com they have them listed for all the
models.
If I was spending upwards of 2K on LA's I would at least want
something that can extend up to 20Khz without signifigant roll off
but that's just me.. The Alphas are suposed to sound amazing
from what I have heard and I did speak to Danny about them. I
would have liked to hear a pair in person but there is no one in
my area with a pair.
I decided to go another route as I mentioned in my own LA thread
and the ribbons I will be using extend beyond 22Khz.
All of the B-G Ribbons Roll Off the top well before 20Khz. The large
pannels tend to do it worse than the Neo.. Check out the BG FR
Plots on www.partsexpress.com they have them listed for all the
models.
If I was spending upwards of 2K on LA's I would at least want
something that can extend up to 20Khz without signifigant roll off
but that's just me.. The Alphas are suposed to sound amazing
from what I have heard and I did speak to Danny about them. I
would have liked to hear a pair in person but there is no one in
my area with a pair.
I decided to go another route as I mentioned in my own LA thread
and the ribbons I will be using extend beyond 22Khz.
Neo3
Hi all,
Not to "push" them too much, but if anyone's interested in a nice deal on 46 or so Neo3 PDRs for building an array, have a look at my add on trading post and drop me a line.
I'm fairly sure that the peak in the repsonse of a single Neo will be smoothed by the array leading to a nice flat and extended response. The 3s have better extension than the 8s btw.
cheers
cv
Hi all,
Not to "push" them too much, but if anyone's interested in a nice deal on 46 or so Neo3 PDRs for building an array, have a look at my add on trading post and drop me a line.
I'm fairly sure that the peak in the repsonse of a single Neo will be smoothed by the array leading to a nice flat and extended response. The 3s have better extension than the 8s btw.
cheers
cv
The Alphas are suposed to sound amazing
from what I have heard and I did speak to Danny about them. I
would have liked to hear a pair in person but there is no one in
my area with a pair.
I've been trolling the forums for years, everyday, gathering data
for my project.. Everyone who hears line arrays are always
pleased - no matter which brand -- because it's a new sound
they have not heard -- they are used to hearing classic designs
with a couple of drivers per cabinet. Two distinct sonic
characteristics.
After doing my own tests with eight low cost 'baby' planars
the tweeter shown here;
http://www.kaiaudio.com/projects/mmt.html
same as this;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...&St3=-81298484&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=15969&DID=7
($250 for all the tweeters), I still think one of my monster
planars ($600) will sonically beat the line array of babies in sound
quality and spl and the design is simplified. I think this is a rare
occurance because the monster tweeter is exceptional, not
common to see this type of tweeter on the shelf. I don't
know if this applies to midranges because it's hard to find
something exceptional, so an array of good ones should be
pretty cool.
Line sourcing the monster tweeter is pretty radical, so
a simpliifed design like Jim Griffin's Needles, one planar and
an array of good 6.5" - 8" midranges flanking above and below
the single monster planar has really cool potential for a single
tweeter solution.
graph here; (I use no waveguide, check left graph)
http://www.stageaccompany.com/download/files/product/techdoc sa8535.pdf
>what if we do a 1.5 way using 2 TBs full range on the front baffle and 2 TBs rolled of on the rear baffle (BSC)? At what point will i expect comb? 4k, 8k, 16k?
this way i can go push push between the 4 TBs.
====
Unless there's enough sources and/or distance to the listening position, me and comb filtering in my sensitive hearing BW don't get along so can't recommend twin fullrangers unless stuck in a Unity concept horn or other folded baffle design to mimic a point source at the listening position.
Bipoles are nifty, especially when laid out so the mags touch, slightly lowering Qts and acting as mutual bucking magnets. This widens the baffle, lowering the BS, which is a plus IMO. The -3dB point is ~13560"/pi/flat baffle width.
====
>alternately ony one Tb on the front is full range but then the second TB on the front baffle might be out of phase with the 2 TBs on the rear baffle so I am confused.
====
Right, ideally, all three would need to be on the rear. Considering their extremely modest acoustic output though, there's no advantage to doing a bipole if a 1.5 design is used and shielding isn't a criteria.
Anyway, it'll look more impressive with them all on the front. 😉
GM
this way i can go push push between the 4 TBs.
====
Unless there's enough sources and/or distance to the listening position, me and comb filtering in my sensitive hearing BW don't get along so can't recommend twin fullrangers unless stuck in a Unity concept horn or other folded baffle design to mimic a point source at the listening position.
Bipoles are nifty, especially when laid out so the mags touch, slightly lowering Qts and acting as mutual bucking magnets. This widens the baffle, lowering the BS, which is a plus IMO. The -3dB point is ~13560"/pi/flat baffle width.
====
>alternately ony one Tb on the front is full range but then the second TB on the front baffle might be out of phase with the 2 TBs on the rear baffle so I am confused.
====
Right, ideally, all three would need to be on the rear. Considering their extremely modest acoustic output though, there's no advantage to doing a bipole if a 1.5 design is used and shielding isn't a criteria.
Anyway, it'll look more impressive with them all on the front. 😉
GM
i actually prefer my speaker to look plain valine but sound impressive. the more plain vanilla the better.
thylantyr,
Those are the planar's I am using. 12 per line flanked by 12 7"
Kevlar Midranges.
I will be paying substantialy less than the going price at PE or
Madisound for the ribbons (24 in all)
I agree they should work very well. The overall efficiency of the
system will be pretty high and the less falloff of the LA will be
very welcomed in my system.
I am very excited to start the project.. I should have the drivers
all shipping to me in a week or so.. nearly 300 pounds of drivers
the mids weigh in a 5Lbs each plus another monster 12 sub to
do my dual sealed stereobass setup, hope my floor can handle
the weight 🙂
Those are the planar's I am using. 12 per line flanked by 12 7"
Kevlar Midranges.
I will be paying substantialy less than the going price at PE or
Madisound for the ribbons (24 in all)
I agree they should work very well. The overall efficiency of the
system will be pretty high and the less falloff of the LA will be
very welcomed in my system.
I am very excited to start the project.. I should have the drivers
all shipping to me in a week or so.. nearly 300 pounds of drivers
the mids weigh in a 5Lbs each plus another monster 12 sub to
do my dual sealed stereobass setup, hope my floor can handle
the weight 🙂
Brett;
I line sourced all the eight planars in parallel for a 1 ohm load,
hehe.. I don't know how stryke is wiring theirs.. but when I do
this using an active crossover and dedicated amplifier, the
amplifier doesn't complain about 1 ohm loads even though
it's not rated for less than 4 ohms per channel.. The reason
is.. tweeters don't draw much power from the amplifier, so it's
happy.. This parallel arrangement gets me cool spl capabilities.
Pricewise, it would be hard to beat that stryke design if
you are getting a deal on drivers..😎
Rule #1 in speaker design - make it big to intimidate listeners 😉
Rule #2 in speaker design - make sure it sounds as mean as it looks😉
/////
/////
Recently my evil mind wonders if a latex skin can be made
to cover the speakers to achieve this look.
http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=40;t=014209
I visualize a front baffle that is in the shape of a skull, perhaps
grim reaper style with a huge mouth opening from top to
bottom and the drivers mount inside the mouth..
///// /////
Maybe a fiberglass designed home stereo box?
I don't have the talent or the artistic nature to pull
this off, but it's a weird idea..
The old lady wouldn't be happy
I line sourced all the eight planars in parallel for a 1 ohm load,
hehe.. I don't know how stryke is wiring theirs.. but when I do
this using an active crossover and dedicated amplifier, the
amplifier doesn't complain about 1 ohm loads even though
it's not rated for less than 4 ohms per channel.. The reason
is.. tweeters don't draw much power from the amplifier, so it's
happy.. This parallel arrangement gets me cool spl capabilities.
Pricewise, it would be hard to beat that stryke design if
you are getting a deal on drivers..😎
Rule #1 in speaker design - make it big to intimidate listeners 😉
Rule #2 in speaker design - make sure it sounds as mean as it looks😉
/////
/////Recently my evil mind wonders if a latex skin can be made
to cover the speakers to achieve this look.
http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=40;t=014209
I visualize a front baffle that is in the shape of a skull, perhaps
grim reaper style with a huge mouth opening from top to
bottom and the drivers mount inside the mouth..
/////
/////Maybe a fiberglass designed home stereo box?
I don't have the talent or the artistic nature to pull
this off, but it's a weird idea..
The old lady wouldn't be happy
BG high end
I work as a consultant for high end home audio. I say this to preamble this statement. How high do any of us hear in the first place????
I test the hearing of each and everyone of my clients as a kind of education for them and for me. They get to understand a little about acoustics. I get to understand about what they like and their particular hearing abilities. To the point. I have never found anyone capable of hearing beyond 18khz. That includes women who are in their 30s or even younger. I find it amusing that so much effort is put into discussing a driver most of you have never even heard and at frequencies that you may not be able to hear in the first place.
P.S. My reference for hearing tests are dynaudio d28s and my current reference system includes BG neo 8s
Mark
I work as a consultant for high end home audio. I say this to preamble this statement. How high do any of us hear in the first place????
I test the hearing of each and everyone of my clients as a kind of education for them and for me. They get to understand a little about acoustics. I get to understand about what they like and their particular hearing abilities. To the point. I have never found anyone capable of hearing beyond 18khz. That includes women who are in their 30s or even younger. I find it amusing that so much effort is put into discussing a driver most of you have never even heard and at frequencies that you may not be able to hear in the first place.
P.S. My reference for hearing tests are dynaudio d28s and my current reference system includes BG neo 8s
Mark
Brett: Woven Kevlar vs. Fiberglass Cones
Brett,
I would check out those Stryke SA071 drivers that you plan to use. At their cost you likely are getting woven fiberglass cones and not Kevlar. Most Kevlar based drivers are 5 to 10 times more money per unit.
Jim
Brett,
I would check out those Stryke SA071 drivers that you plan to use. At their cost you likely are getting woven fiberglass cones and not Kevlar. Most Kevlar based drivers are 5 to 10 times more money per unit.
Jim
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