Music only. Budget is hopefully 250 or bellow, so as not to prohibit adding another later on. Will be paired with s2000 MTM's. Looking for a design that can play from the 20's to 50hz. Prefer sound quality over SPL, but I do like my music loud occasionally. No space limitations (within reason). Will be using DSP.
What is a recommended design/sub? Looking for already tested designs or something simple that's not difficult for a newbie.
Bandpass seems more difficult than is needed and ported may be better?
Thanks.
What is a recommended design/sub? Looking for already tested designs or something simple that's not difficult for a newbie.
Bandpass seems more difficult than is needed and ported may be better?
Thanks.
Not directed directly at you FishNChips, I don't want to offend you, but we get a lot of these threads, so it does concern you a little bit.
Maybe there should be a short list of requirements for making these threads.
Perhaps a Sticky named "DESIGN AND BUILD QUESTIONS!"
Before you post questions asking for a design of any particular kind, please list the desired criteria accordingly:
1. Budget, drivers and electric parts only please, other building materials vary wildly in cost.
2. Size, even if you say "Sky is the limit!" everyone has a limit, please state some ballpark figures you have in mind.
3. Expectations, remember the magic triangle, pick any two: Compact, Low frequency, High SPL.
4. What are you going to use it with? Speaker names don't always make much sense, better to mention sensitivity rating and driver size, or just post a link to manufacturer page.
Sorry about that FishNChips.
You have stated a budget, you seem to be "ok" with big speakers, but none of us understand what might be "too big" for you. Unless you would like to drown in designs and schematics for ++++250 liter subs, I suggest you mention at least which kind of ballpark you would like to be in, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. There is more than one sport involving sphere shaped objects, so to speak.
That out of the way, you did say that you want to cross over fairly low, a sub working from 20-50hz might not be the most optimal solution, if your speakers are struggling a bit, perhaps it would be better to off-load them a little, and cross over at least between 80-120hz somewhere, this might also give you some head room, pending on your design goals.
Maybe there should be a short list of requirements for making these threads.
Perhaps a Sticky named "DESIGN AND BUILD QUESTIONS!"
Before you post questions asking for a design of any particular kind, please list the desired criteria accordingly:
1. Budget, drivers and electric parts only please, other building materials vary wildly in cost.
2. Size, even if you say "Sky is the limit!" everyone has a limit, please state some ballpark figures you have in mind.
3. Expectations, remember the magic triangle, pick any two: Compact, Low frequency, High SPL.
4. What are you going to use it with? Speaker names don't always make much sense, better to mention sensitivity rating and driver size, or just post a link to manufacturer page.
Sorry about that FishNChips.
You have stated a budget, you seem to be "ok" with big speakers, but none of us understand what might be "too big" for you. Unless you would like to drown in designs and schematics for ++++250 liter subs, I suggest you mention at least which kind of ballpark you would like to be in, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. There is more than one sport involving sphere shaped objects, so to speak.
That out of the way, you did say that you want to cross over fairly low, a sub working from 20-50hz might not be the most optimal solution, if your speakers are struggling a bit, perhaps it would be better to off-load them a little, and cross over at least between 80-120hz somewhere, this might also give you some head room, pending on your design goals.
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QUOTE=KaffiMann;5813369]
Maybe there should be a short list of requirements for making these threads.
Perhaps a Sticky named "DESIGN AND BUILD QUESTIONS!"
Before you post questions asking for a design of any particular kind, please list the desired criteria accordingly:
1. Budget, drivers and electric parts only please, other building materials vary wildly in cost.
2. Size, even if you say "Sky is the limit!" everyone has a limit, please state some ballpark figures you have in mind.
3. Expectations, remember the magic triangle, pick any two: Compact, Low frequency, High SPL.
4. What are you going to use it with? Speaker names don't always make much sense, better to mention sensitivity rating and driver size, or just post a link to manufacturer page.
Sorry about that FishNChips.
You have stated a budget, you seem to be "ok" with big speakers, but none of us understand what might be "too big" for you. Unless you would like to drown in designs and schematics for ++++250 liter subs, I suggest you mention at least which kind of ballpark you would like to be in, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. There is more than one sport involving sphere shaped objects, so to speak.
That out of the way, you did say that you want to cross over fairly low, a sub working from 20-50hz might not be the most optimal solution, if your speakers are struggling a bit, perhaps it would be better to off-load them a little, and cross over at least between 80-120hz somewhere, this might also give you some head room, pending on your design goals.[/QUOTE]
Not offended at all. I do try to limit how many works I put in a thread as people are deturred the more they have to read. Hopefully this is sufficient information:
1) The amp and driver bellow 250.
2) Volume bellow a 3' x 3' x 3' cube (27cuft). Hopefully that gives an idea of what I consider reasonable.
3) SPL Target: If I had two of them, would it be extremely annoying the the next door neighbors at Max volume.
Size: 27cuft is pretty big imo. At least in car audio.
Frequency: 20's. I only need it to play up to 60 ish. I was thinking that would help since I could use a bandpass box to maximize SPL, lower distortion, get lower, etc. Or it might mean a larger driver could be used.
4) Diy Sound Group's s2000 MTM's.
Denovo Audio S2000 MTM
Thanks.
Maybe there should be a short list of requirements for making these threads.
Perhaps a Sticky named "DESIGN AND BUILD QUESTIONS!"
Before you post questions asking for a design of any particular kind, please list the desired criteria accordingly:
1. Budget, drivers and electric parts only please, other building materials vary wildly in cost.
2. Size, even if you say "Sky is the limit!" everyone has a limit, please state some ballpark figures you have in mind.
3. Expectations, remember the magic triangle, pick any two: Compact, Low frequency, High SPL.
4. What are you going to use it with? Speaker names don't always make much sense, better to mention sensitivity rating and driver size, or just post a link to manufacturer page.
Sorry about that FishNChips.
You have stated a budget, you seem to be "ok" with big speakers, but none of us understand what might be "too big" for you. Unless you would like to drown in designs and schematics for ++++250 liter subs, I suggest you mention at least which kind of ballpark you would like to be in, baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. There is more than one sport involving sphere shaped objects, so to speak.
That out of the way, you did say that you want to cross over fairly low, a sub working from 20-50hz might not be the most optimal solution, if your speakers are struggling a bit, perhaps it would be better to off-load them a little, and cross over at least between 80-120hz somewhere, this might also give you some head room, pending on your design goals.[/QUOTE]
Not offended at all. I do try to limit how many works I put in a thread as people are deturred the more they have to read. Hopefully this is sufficient information:
1) The amp and driver bellow 250.
2) Volume bellow a 3' x 3' x 3' cube (27cuft). Hopefully that gives an idea of what I consider reasonable.
3) SPL Target: If I had two of them, would it be extremely annoying the the next door neighbors at Max volume.
Size: 27cuft is pretty big imo. At least in car audio.
Frequency: 20's. I only need it to play up to 60 ish. I was thinking that would help since I could use a bandpass box to maximize SPL, lower distortion, get lower, etc. Or it might mean a larger driver could be used.
4) Diy Sound Group's s2000 MTM's.
Denovo Audio S2000 MTM
Thanks.
I'm afraid you are throwing numbers around without actually knowing what it really means.
The 's2000 MTM' are these? If yes, you won't get any more dynamics, just more bass. To cross them over higher would benefit greatly the SQ since they don't have to make such great excursions. That lowers the distortion and gives you a lot more dynamic, you'll also get more distinguishable details.
How big is your room? Is the sub used for home cinema or for music (or both)? The chances are, you don't actually want 20Hz and are much happier if they 'only' go down to 30Hz. Or drop with a slight slope instead of going linear to xx Hz since the roomgain will likely make it boomy and unprecise.
By guessing the answers and your given information, I think this might be something for you: The JBL CS 1214 in a sealed enclosure. The sealed enclosure will give you a good, precise bass and it's (well, IMHO at least) actually deep enough with -4 to -6 dB at 30Hz, depending on how much enclosure volume you'll give the driver. The possible size starts at 60l, upper end is at 150l, I'd recommend 75-100l. The smaller size gives you more punch but goes less deep and vice versa.
The CS 1214 is so cheap you can buy two, put each of them in their own enclosure and put them in 2 different places, that helps fighting the room modes.
Louder? Yes. Better? No, the impulse answer and decay are much worse.
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Okay, so this is actually the main limitation. Very good!
This limits most of the insane xmax humongous drivers.
You said you wanted to use DSP as well, do you have a solution for that today? In case you need an amp with integrated DSP, might I suggest something like the Dayton SPA250?:
Dayton Audio SPA250DSP 250W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier with DSP
Perhaps in combination with a Dayton Audio PA460-8:
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
I don't think that's reasonable if you live in an apartment building.
In a quite large box of 320 liters, which should be within your size constraints, you stay within the very limited xmax of that cheap but still very good 18", and get about 110db down to 20hz in halfspace.
I would like to suggest you build a smaller box than this, because then you would not have to worry about bracing and such.
Nice!
With the 18" I would like to suggest xo at around 120hz if you build a relatively normal vented or closed box.
Are you sure?
Edit:
A more reasonable 218 liter box still gets you about 113.5db at 30 hz, I would rather have that one instead of the 320 liter thing.
Or you could make a 260 liter box. Choices, choices...
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I'm afraid you are throwing numbers around without actually knowing what it really means.
The 's2000 MTM' are these? If yes, you won't get any more dynamics, just more bass. To cross them over higher would benefit greatly the SQ since they don't have to make such great excursions. That lowers the distortion and gives you a lot more dynamic, you'll also get more distinguishable details.
How big is your room? Is the sub used for home cinema or for music (or both)? The chances are, you don't actually want 20Hz and are much happier if they 'only' go down to 30Hz. Or drop with a slight slope instead of going linear to xx Hz since the roomgain will likely make it boomy and unprecise.
By guessing the answers and your given information, I think this might be something for you: The JBL CS 1214 in a sealed enclosure. The sealed enclosure will give you a good, precise bass and it's (well, IMHO at least) actually deep enough with -4 to -6 dB at 30Hz, depending on how much enclosure volume you'll give the driver. The possible size starts at 60l, upper end is at 150l, I'd recommend 75-100l. The smaller size gives you more punch but goes less deep and vice versa.
The CS 1214 is so cheap you can buy two, put each of them in their own enclosure and put them in 2 different places, that helps fighting the room modes.
Louder? Yes. Better? No, the impulse answer and decay are much worse.
Okay, I understand that reasoning. It's better to crossover the woofers higher than the sub woofer lower. The woofers are ported, I can convert to sealed, but if I left ported, would that have any affect above the tuning frequencies?
This would be used in various rooms, but the room is not small. It is a living room attatched to a kitchen and such. Maybe 500sqft and 8' ceilings. This is only for music and in my experience with my car sub that is -3db at 34hz, I would like it to go lower. You are right, I would be okay with hitting the 30hz mark. There is some rap music I listen to that get's down to 30 and bellow and I'd like to be able to hit that with a close to flat response.
That response for the CS1214 does look good. Qts of .5, I would sort of be stuck with sealed it seems though.
Okay, so this is actually the main limitation. Very good!
This limits most of the insane xmax humongous drivers.
You said you wanted to use DSP as well, do you have a solution for that today? In case you need an amp with integrated DSP, might I suggest something like the Dayton SPA250?:
Dayton Audio SPA250DSP 250W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier with DSP
Perhaps in combination with a Dayton Audio PA460-8:
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
I don't think that's reasonable if you live in an apartment building.
In a quite large box of 320 liters, which should be within your size constraints, you stay within the very limited xmax of that cheap but still very good 18", and get about 110db down to 20hz in halfspace.
I would like to suggest you build a smaller box than this, because then you would not have to worry about bracing and such.
Nice!
With the 18" I would like to suggest xo at around 120hz if you build a relatively normal vented or closed box.
Are you sure?
Edit:
A more reasonable 218 liter box still gets you about 113.5db at 30 hz, I would rather have that one instead of the 320 liter thing.
Or you could make a 260 liter box. Choices, choices...
I will be using the dayton dsp 408 so an amp without would be better as far as cost.
I like the look of the pa woofer, but I'm concerned there will be a compromise to sound quality? I'd really prefer tight controlled base over sheer SPL. My current driver in my car is an image dynamics id10 and I'm happy with the sq of that.... if that helps with a reference.
You could try a Parts Express package such as these:
Dayton Audio 12" Reference Series HO Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle
Dayton Audio 12" Ultimax Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle
Both packages cost less than buying the parts separately, and the first one in particular is a screaming deal since you get $283 of goods for less than $219. Both want a bit of help from Linkwitz Filters, but don't go too overboard since rooms tend to have gain anyway below 80 Hz; I'd recommend setting fp and Qp to 20 Hz and 0.5 respectively, which will yield nice low bass without turning into a sea of mush. The Ultimax version is flatter albeit less sensitive above 60 Hz, with about 6 dB more maximum SPL capability in the region of interest.
The precut boxes fit together nicely especially if you can surround them with furniture clamps. I ended up with 21 (ask me how) so you might want to rent instead of dropping a few hundred bucks 😀
Dayton Audio 12" Reference Series HO Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle
Dayton Audio 12" Ultimax Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle
Both packages cost less than buying the parts separately, and the first one in particular is a screaming deal since you get $283 of goods for less than $219. Both want a bit of help from Linkwitz Filters, but don't go too overboard since rooms tend to have gain anyway below 80 Hz; I'd recommend setting fp and Qp to 20 Hz and 0.5 respectively, which will yield nice low bass without turning into a sea of mush. The Ultimax version is flatter albeit less sensitive above 60 Hz, with about 6 dB more maximum SPL capability in the region of interest.
The precut boxes fit together nicely especially if you can surround them with furniture clamps. I ended up with 21 (ask me how) so you might want to rent instead of dropping a few hundred bucks 😀
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If you close the port(s), the Qt will be quite low, that means, you will have a early decline, (even above the tuning frequency) but very slow slope. I would not recommend it as it is not a great advantage but limits the choice of drivers unnecessarily.
Okay, with that in mind, the 2 JBL in sealed enclosures would work fine and they got the same cone surface as 1 18" but if you really aim for 20 Hz AND want it loud, you should really go for a ported enclosure.
I've just simulated it, BR would work with the JBL too, in 150l. It would look like that:
The JBL are not ideal for BR, the Qts is at the upper end which can (should) be used there and they fulfil your 20Hz requirement in 150l. If you know you want definitively BR, there are other interesting drivers, others already posted some options. Sealed got a lot better group delay and is more precise but BR can get louder. The JBL is a driver which can do both (within limits, namely enclosure volume will be big for a 12"). You're the one whose opinion counts. 😉
Just saw it, tuned that deep a bigger port (or more) would probably be better, it gets longer then though.
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Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm in the midst of finals, so it will take me a bit, but I'm going to do some some modeling and cost analysis. Again, thanks for the info so far, I now have a pretty good idea on what's out there.
is this the fane 15300tc ? open baffle are the subs fane as well? I wondered what you were using for a crossover ? thankyou in advance !I like tight bass response myself. I have 6 x 15" in one of my setups, tight as can be.
Much better than my 2 x 12" system, crosses higher and smoother response.
It's all in the implementation.
But you choose whatever you want, it's your prerogative.
Those in the pictures are old boxes, I made some new ones, the Fane 15-300TC are in about 80 litres closed volume and the double Fane 15-400 are in a vented ca 220 liter volume.
Bass is very tight.
I am considering cutting the tops off to make them more flexible, but otherwise quite happy.
Bass is very tight.
I am considering cutting the tops off to make them more flexible, but otherwise quite happy.
any pictures I'm thinking of doing something similar with mine but with 2 sealed dual opposed 15s all in a sealed compartment below but all in the same box think it would come in about 300ltrs what are you using to power them please ? have you done any experiments to alter the dispersion ?
I have not done any significant changes to the off axis dispersion, some experimentation back and forth led me to the conclusion that it doesn't matter that much in my application.
The amplifier is an IMG-STA2000D which has 2 Pascal S-PRO2 modules, a bit overkill tbh.
OK thanks that amp looks interesting and well priced I assume you just use it on the bass ?
I use 2 channels for the 15-300tc and 2 channels for bass, it's a 4 channel amplifier.
Edit:
Do note that I have heard people say it's not a low noise amp, I suspect some ground fault in the earlier parth of the signal chain. It lets absolutely everything through, I had to up my game in terms of source to get lower noise and now it's very good.
Edit:
Do note that I have heard people say it's not a low noise amp, I suspect some ground fault in the earlier parth of the signal chain. It lets absolutely everything through, I had to up my game in terms of source to get lower noise and now it's very good.
I think with high sensitivity speakers you notice the noise more as well and your really close to those big drivers as well do you use eq ? I found the fane needed eq to sound nice but then it sounded excellent so relaxed like it's barely moving at all going back to smaller speakers gheg all sound slightly strained I really like the 15300tc I'm just planning some experiments to see if I can improve the dispersion to get a smooth balance throughout the room
Looking in to them, I am puzzled xca+ and dp+ looks the same on the features .whats the difference?
I want to upgrade my super old drive rack pa
As I heard dbmark have better sound quality than the cheap line dbx