I want to make some full-range speakers which can go reasonably low, lets say F3 in 40smth Hz to avoid the need of subwoofer
The main req:
-Fullrange...
-Low cabinet volume - space is at premium, also smaller cabinets are cheaper to build and have much better WAF. Probably go for MLTL or similar long and tall
-Up to 150EUR/USD per speaker driver, so up to 300USD/pair
-Prefer quality over SPL
Nice to have:
-As much range as possible, my hearing is up to 14kHz, but the more range, the better
-Cheaper than 150USD per speaker driver.
-6 inch+ driver size
I am leaning into Dayton PS 180 or smth MarkAudio, but literally lost which Mark's driver has good combo of price, range, sound quality and recommended box sizes.
Definitelly not into 100+ liters boxes
Which driver and which box to choose?
Please help me with brainstorm. Thank you!
EDIT: another advantage is the lack of some sort correction circuit or a need for heavy EQ
The main req:
-Fullrange...
-Low cabinet volume - space is at premium, also smaller cabinets are cheaper to build and have much better WAF. Probably go for MLTL or similar long and tall
-Up to 150EUR/USD per speaker driver, so up to 300USD/pair
-Prefer quality over SPL
Nice to have:
-As much range as possible, my hearing is up to 14kHz, but the more range, the better
-Cheaper than 150USD per speaker driver.
-6 inch+ driver size
I am leaning into Dayton PS 180 or smth MarkAudio, but literally lost which Mark's driver has good combo of price, range, sound quality and recommended box sizes.
Definitelly not into 100+ liters boxes
Which driver and which box to choose?
Please help me with brainstorm. Thank you!
EDIT: another advantage is the lack of some sort correction circuit or a need for heavy EQ
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Cab wise, we're always trading (LF) efficiency (peak SPL) for BW per the attached vented limits, so figure out how much power needed to meet the needs of the app with the assumption of at least +20 dB of dynamic headroom required and need to add +6 dB for every doubling of distance, i.e. if listening at a 70 dB avg./your ears 2 m away = 70+20+6 = 96 dB = ~0.25% = ~10 L min. box size.
Attachments
Alpair 10.3 would be a good choice, but there are many. Some box plans here: https://www.markaudio.com/online_shop/alpair/alpair-10-3/
Dave also offers box plans & paid plan-sets: https://www.planet10-hifi.com/ma.html
jeff
I’ll echo Jeff re the A10.3 as an all round great performer- after some playing around with them and the A10P for a while, I found I preferred the metals to the paper, and have been living with a set of them as front row triad in my 7.1 system for well over 5yrs now; Scott Lindgren’s Pensils for the L&R mains, and one of Dave’s numerous compact vented designs for the centre.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
If you have the required floor space, the FHXL is definitely worth consideration, but I found room placement much easier with the monkey coffin style towers.
http://www.frugal-horn.com/FHXL.html
The standmount / “bookshelf” monitor MarKen 10.3 is a pretty decent performer as well.
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/CGR-MarKen103p-plan-040414.pdf
Holy smokes, over 10yrs for some of those builds; I’m not sure I wanna know what the fact that it seems like only yesterday says about my cognitive functioning. 🤔
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil103-plan-300114.pdf
If you have the required floor space, the FHXL is definitely worth consideration, but I found room placement much easier with the monkey coffin style towers.
http://www.frugal-horn.com/FHXL.html
The standmount / “bookshelf” monitor MarKen 10.3 is a pretty decent performer as well.
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/CGR-MarKen103p-plan-040414.pdf
Holy smokes, over 10yrs for some of those builds; I’m not sure I wanna know what the fact that it seems like only yesterday says about my cognitive functioning. 🤔
Very interesting graph, thank you!
Maybe I expressed myself wrong... I am NOT into the ~10 L boxes... Probably I could say that even ~40 L is ok in size, but not much more.
I want to invest a little more into the speaker driver, which plays well low frequencies in reasonably sized boxes
Thanks for this info. FHXL takes too much ground space - close to 100 L box... It is exactly type of build I want to avoid
Now about paper vs metal: why metal is more to your taste? Is it because of the material of the cone or metal Alpair just sounds better?
You may find Bob Cordell’s EQSS loudspeaker bass technique of interest.
http://www.cordellaudio.com/loudspeakers/EQSS_White_Paper.pdf
Also utilized in his ‘Athena’ loudspeaker design example, which is also shown on his site.
http://www.cordellaudio.com/loudspeakers/EQSS_White_Paper.pdf
Also utilized in his ‘Athena’ loudspeaker design example, which is also shown on his site.
Quite possibly a combination of substantial industrial work based hearing loss above the upper midrange area circa 3500-5000Hz range and pulsating tinnitus? While I found the A10P to be very enjoyable (note; not all of the MA papers I played with during that era were ), they ultimately lacked detail that the metals (A5/6/7/10 series) delivered. While I’d had the good fortune to play with most of Mark’s designs from the EL70 to quite briefly the first couple of MS (I generally preferred the metals*) and it’s now been well over 5 years since I’ve played with the newest offerings. If I understand correctly the MS’s requisite cone profile is not possible or economically practicable with paper.
* the A12PW being probably the exception - a helluva nice mid-woofer that did not sound mis-matched with a metal driver in two-way.
So, once again I’m rambling on a bit.
Brig001, no I have not modeled scientifically with microphone and REW or similar, but have experimented a little by placing speakers - in some places bass boost of 50-60Hz is very very noticeable. With subwoofer I kinda think there were no very noticeable nulls as my "golden ears" say. I have little hope to reach 30Hz anyway.
I will make stereo pair in any way. Subwoofer is gone, want to continue without it AND not have two fridge-sized boxes. Space is limited and placement options are also more or less limited (near TV... half meter into one side or another). Room treatment possibility is also extremely limited. The purpose of this thread is to select the driver, which will allow me to build a pair of reasonably sized boxes and enjoy variety of music + occasionally some of the action movies. 100 L volume per speaker is a bit too much, 50 L is ok. I am rejecting the drivers one-by-one at the moment, so the first one rejected is Visaton B200
I will make stereo pair in any way. Subwoofer is gone, want to continue without it AND not have two fridge-sized boxes. Space is limited and placement options are also more or less limited (near TV... half meter into one side or another). Room treatment possibility is also extremely limited. The purpose of this thread is to select the driver, which will allow me to build a pair of reasonably sized boxes and enjoy variety of music + occasionally some of the action movies. 100 L volume per speaker is a bit too much, 50 L is ok. I am rejecting the drivers one-by-one at the moment, so the first one rejected is Visaton B200
Yes. Externally in 80L range.
What is F3 of those boxes? If I model quick and dirty with winisd 65L tuned to lets say 31L it... does not look good, does it?
Ty waxx, It looks good!
Comparison of 65L Pensils and 22L.
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You can't model a Pensil in WinISD (accurately) because it's a mass loaded TL. That's why you get an ugly curve when you push the box volume way up.
Try 15-16 litres, tuned around 45-47Hz QB3.
jeff
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I did my own at 17.9L tuned to 45Hz actually, and that's my daily office speaker. But you can tune it lower (i did it before) with this driver and i thought that is what he wants, 45Hz is maybo not low enough for him. For me it's not, except in my office (where it's mostly background music or video). My speakers in my living room/music room are tuned to +/- 30Hz.
waxx, are the "office speakers" and "living/music room" speakers both with the Alpair 10.3? Office is bass-reflex and living room is MLTL type?
Could you please share more details?
Could you please share more details?
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My "livingroom speakers" move arround, now it's a MLTL with a CHN110 and a reflex with a big Fane 12-250TC, but i also have a waw with the 10.3 and a Scanspeak 26W woofer, and an aperiodic vented with an old Philips AD1065, and some more. Idem with amps in my house, they move arround all the time. But my office speakers seems to stay in place... 😉
Is putting the speakers in 2 corners of the room an option? The boxes could even be designed specifically with a "1/2 pi steradian" radiation pattern in mind.
I think anyone would like a good 30Hz response from delicate FR drivers while perched on sleek bookshelf stands in the middle of the room, but, the laws of physics...
I think anyone would like a good 30Hz response from delicate FR drivers while perched on sleek bookshelf stands in the middle of the room, but, the laws of physics...