Hi all,
Anyone running primary subs just for infrasonic and subbass frequencies but then run other subs just for mid-bass for slam, impact and just higher SPL up there? Thinking below 20hz is infrasonic, 20hz to 40hz is sub-bass, and 50hz and up basically would be the mid and upper bass as a reference for discussion.
I'm happy with my current subs, which do 18hz to 50hz well. But I'm thinking of building two smaller tower subs to do 50hz to 100hz with room to spare. Was considering a dual driver setup, maybe 12" drivers with ok-ish xmax wired in parallel to be 4ohms to an amp. This would mostly be for fun to increase the pop/clack/boom that my larger subs do not have, they do the rolling thunder thing.
Sealed vs bass relfex for this? My other subs are bass reflex. I think I could get away with either sealed or bass relfex no problem. If reflex I'm thinking a tuning frequency on the port of 40~45hz to have all that extra SPL and limit xmax in two zones that are important to settle.
I'm also thinking one amp, two channels, to handle two of these as a pair (left & right) but could also go individual amp for each.
GRS 12PT-8 (two of these) wired for 4ohm and fed 450 watts of signal. 4 feet^3 and 45hz tuning. Will primarily drive from 50hz to 100hz+ and roll the rest off.
Xmax on the above:
Air velocity is in check, if I use a 3" by 14.75" slot port (generalized).
Thinking 36" tall, x 16" wide, x 17.75" deep after drivers, bracing, double baffle, port, 4 feet^3 internal net volume, maybe a bit more depending on how bracing goes. Slot port with 3" by 14.75" entrance/exits, around 10 inches long to be nearly that 45hz~40hz tuning frequency.
Anyone running subs for subbass and others for mid-bass? Do they integrate well? Any tips?
Very best,
Anyone running primary subs just for infrasonic and subbass frequencies but then run other subs just for mid-bass for slam, impact and just higher SPL up there? Thinking below 20hz is infrasonic, 20hz to 40hz is sub-bass, and 50hz and up basically would be the mid and upper bass as a reference for discussion.
I'm happy with my current subs, which do 18hz to 50hz well. But I'm thinking of building two smaller tower subs to do 50hz to 100hz with room to spare. Was considering a dual driver setup, maybe 12" drivers with ok-ish xmax wired in parallel to be 4ohms to an amp. This would mostly be for fun to increase the pop/clack/boom that my larger subs do not have, they do the rolling thunder thing.
Sealed vs bass relfex for this? My other subs are bass reflex. I think I could get away with either sealed or bass relfex no problem. If reflex I'm thinking a tuning frequency on the port of 40~45hz to have all that extra SPL and limit xmax in two zones that are important to settle.
I'm also thinking one amp, two channels, to handle two of these as a pair (left & right) but could also go individual amp for each.
GRS 12PT-8 (two of these) wired for 4ohm and fed 450 watts of signal. 4 feet^3 and 45hz tuning. Will primarily drive from 50hz to 100hz+ and roll the rest off.
Xmax on the above:
Air velocity is in check, if I use a 3" by 14.75" slot port (generalized).
Thinking 36" tall, x 16" wide, x 17.75" deep after drivers, bracing, double baffle, port, 4 feet^3 internal net volume, maybe a bit more depending on how bracing goes. Slot port with 3" by 14.75" entrance/exits, around 10 inches long to be nearly that 45hz~40hz tuning frequency.
Anyone running subs for subbass and others for mid-bass? Do they integrate well? Any tips?
Very best,
Last edited:
Greets!
FWIW, 'grew up' with this chart (minus all the side bar stuff), so a little bit different breakpoints.
Yet to do this many segments for myself, though have helped others do theirs before all the digital correction available nowadays, but given a 'right enough' room acoustics it's the way to go IME.
Yeah, in my time the bass (~60 - 250 Hz) is today's prosound mid bass, so BR tuning in the low 40s is a good plan.
FWIW, 'grew up' with this chart (minus all the side bar stuff), so a little bit different breakpoints.
Yet to do this many segments for myself, though have helped others do theirs before all the digital correction available nowadays, but given a 'right enough' room acoustics it's the way to go IME.
Yeah, in my time the bass (~60 - 250 Hz) is today's prosound mid bass, so BR tuning in the low 40s is a good plan.
I personally think it's a little odd to run speakers for a single octave, but if you can manage the integration in-room then I guess go for it? I am just not sure if this is the right approach to improve the audible quality of bass... using specialty infrasonic subs is apparently normal, using an extra sub just for 50-100hz is unusual. Also the drivers in question can apparently go up to 2khz, just seems like an inefficient use of cones and boxes... what are you using for the mains?
My personal thought is that if you are looking for more 'slam' you might be better served by looking at your in-room RT60 in that 50-100hz range and maybe adding some traps instead of more speakers. If you control the acoustics then you can add more SPL while maintaining the crisp quality you're after.
All that said I think having plenty of overlap between mains and subs in the <100hz region, (the more the merrier) then EQ it flat, is the way to go. Each speaker will work proportionally less hard in the overlapping ranges.
My personal thought is that if you are looking for more 'slam' you might be better served by looking at your in-room RT60 in that 50-100hz range and maybe adding some traps instead of more speakers. If you control the acoustics then you can add more SPL while maintaining the crisp quality you're after.
All that said I think having plenty of overlap between mains and subs in the <100hz region, (the more the merrier) then EQ it flat, is the way to go. Each speaker will work proportionally less hard in the overlapping ranges.
The best slam and impact I've ever heard is my Double Bass Array. Its covering a decade, from 15 to 150 Hz. You'll need at least eight subwoofers to do it properly, preferably more.
Agree with GM here, on the "main rig" my crossovers are around 230hz, if you want that "in the chest" kind of kick then 80-200hz is very important. I guess you could call most of my setups "stereo sub" oriented, it works well in most rooms I have tried.
I have great response to 30hz which is the most important to me, the speakers can be run to give response to 13Hz or so in-room, but not with the current DSP setup which rolls off from 20hz no matter what.
I do not understand this 20-50-100Hz thing at all, more stuff - more problems.
Get the subs at least partly off the ground and away from corners.
Would love to experience Stig Eriks setup sometime, seems like fun.
Well you could KaffiMann, as we are living less than 2 hours from each other 🙂
I would really like that, will have to be mid january or later on my part, no time off work this Christmas, been lucky the last 5 years or so but not this time.
You seem to be looking for a really sharp transient response, which means you need phase coherence, which means minimal group delay, which means you use a (preferably low-Q) sealed enclosure.
That will be fine since you don't need to get much below 50Hz. Bonus: they will be (possibly much) smaller enclosures than if you did ported.
What are you current "mains" covering the 50-200 band? If those are not sealed, that is probably the problem - they won't produce crisp broadband transient edges that punch you. Might be better to replace whatever those are with some powerful 12" in sealed boxes, and give the 12s the full non-sub bass band, e.g. 50-300 or so.
That will be fine since you don't need to get much below 50Hz. Bonus: they will be (possibly much) smaller enclosures than if you did ported.
What are you current "mains" covering the 50-200 band? If those are not sealed, that is probably the problem - they won't produce crisp broadband transient edges that punch you. Might be better to replace whatever those are with some powerful 12" in sealed boxes, and give the 12s the full non-sub bass band, e.g. 50-300 or so.
Thanks all,
My mains are towers and they drop to mid 30's in room, they're an array of 6.5" drivers (3 of them for the bass woofers, two more for mids, and a tweeter, 3 way). They're older but they do well for now.
My current two subs that handle 18~50hz very well, but asking them to go over 50hz they lose steam fast. I have been using my mains crossing over lower to handle that and it does work ok. But I like to build and I like to have more because its part of the hobby. So what someone above mentioned, I'm thinking of crossing over higher, and working in some mid bass subs to handle 50hz and up, and maybe go as high as 120hz or 200+hz even with the crossover. After this I plan on building new mains and going for something like a compression horn and efficient pro driver for a mid woofer. So the idea would be a stereo pair of these mid bass subs to handle 50hz to possibly 200hz or so with a high cross over.
I recently experimented with near field dual 12" drivers in an open baffle, behind my seats, and they were fun for the impact and slam they provided. Near field in general gives me the impact/slam I like. But I can't sit on top of all that and have guests at the same time. I thought about making some coffee table or end table style mid-bass subs for this reason to get the slam and impact by being near field. I have the timber and ply to build anything. The drivers are inexpensive and I was thinking either a big 18" that is efficient or two 12's to get a similar surface area. Price would be basically the same other than the 18s are hardly ever in stock.
This system is 99% for movies/streamed shows.
Overall interest is largely because I finished my latest sub towers for infrasonic and sub-bass, and I'm just interested in a mid-bass sub to integrate and compliment them and offload the mains a little more. It's mostly for fun and because I've never had a system like that. So was just seeing if anyone else has something similar and what their experience and thoughts were on how it worked out, how it integrated, etc.
Very best,
My mains are towers and they drop to mid 30's in room, they're an array of 6.5" drivers (3 of them for the bass woofers, two more for mids, and a tweeter, 3 way). They're older but they do well for now.
My current two subs that handle 18~50hz very well, but asking them to go over 50hz they lose steam fast. I have been using my mains crossing over lower to handle that and it does work ok. But I like to build and I like to have more because its part of the hobby. So what someone above mentioned, I'm thinking of crossing over higher, and working in some mid bass subs to handle 50hz and up, and maybe go as high as 120hz or 200+hz even with the crossover. After this I plan on building new mains and going for something like a compression horn and efficient pro driver for a mid woofer. So the idea would be a stereo pair of these mid bass subs to handle 50hz to possibly 200hz or so with a high cross over.
I recently experimented with near field dual 12" drivers in an open baffle, behind my seats, and they were fun for the impact and slam they provided. Near field in general gives me the impact/slam I like. But I can't sit on top of all that and have guests at the same time. I thought about making some coffee table or end table style mid-bass subs for this reason to get the slam and impact by being near field. I have the timber and ply to build anything. The drivers are inexpensive and I was thinking either a big 18" that is efficient or two 12's to get a similar surface area. Price would be basically the same other than the 18s are hardly ever in stock.
This system is 99% for movies/streamed shows.
Overall interest is largely because I finished my latest sub towers for infrasonic and sub-bass, and I'm just interested in a mid-bass sub to integrate and compliment them and offload the mains a little more. It's mostly for fun and because I've never had a system like that. So was just seeing if anyone else has something similar and what their experience and thoughts were on how it worked out, how it integrated, etc.
Very best,
This all makes more sense, thanks. I've seen people who have infra-subs (<20hz), regular subs (20-100+) and then mains. I think you may stand a better chance of getting even in-room response if you do build these 'midbass subs' but give them a broader bandwidth to work with, and then I think your integration job will be easier too. Whether they are nearfield or not, you'll need to integrate.
I don't see a super good reason to HP any true sub at 50, nor do I see a reason to LP the drivers you mentioned at 100. Consider what the filters will need to be like - a speaker that only plays one octave is ALWAYS playing in the crossover region... probably rare for a reason...
My GUESS is that in terms of getting that physical slam sensation, the nearfield placement is more important than the exact frequency range.
ultimax max 18 ’infrasonic’ to the next @ RSS 265ho4 sealed To your mains @ ??
The most slam and impact I got was with JBL4560 style front horn with bass reflex and a higher tuned paraflex "kick bin". None of which would unfortunately fit your situation visually. IMHO two (or maybe even one) 12" pro style midbass woofers would give you what you are looking for. Lots of area, light cones and high efficiency seems to work well in terms of "impact" or "kick".
It took me a while, but after a lot of wasted effort the answer became much like what kemmler says here:
It is easier to make a decent sounding vented box that covers 25-250Hz than just about anything else, and if done well you get by with a minimum of filters and EQ,
That is what I ended up with, aiming for the minimum amount of filters and EQ.
It is much easier to get good results if you do not have to rely on a "brute force" approach to DSP.
DSP can help you put the icing on the cake and perhaps adjust the amount of filling, but it can not save you from dry and/or burned sponge, nor can it save you from a bad recipe.
Less is more.
There are some tracks I like to use for testing bass but you probably got that covered already.
A few of the tracks I like to use for bass testing coming up.
Have not heard what any of these sounds like on youtube because I only use the lossless files in my collection.
For impact, if you turn it up and it feels as if that kick is attacking you physically then it's just right.
Simian Mobile Disco - Breaking time
This works because it's very clean, a fun track that I like to turn up loud for testing bass definition and general system balance and coherency:
The Seatbelts - Cats on Mars (DMX Krew remix)
Testing for bass phase issues/nulls/frequency response, when it starts the bass is more or less constant so if it disappears you got issues, feels like it can almost pressurize the room in some setups:
My Nu Leng - Knowing
This one is a bit embarassing as I usually strive to find things that are outside of the "pop" scope, but for a combination of kick impact, bass, balanced vocals and crispy highs it is very hard to beat:
Ace of Base - Living in danger (Old school mix)
(The D-house mix is also very good, and there is a very nice "snap" that is good for testing mid and possibly mid/tweet crossovers.)
Really like the track from Dopamine called "Hold you", the Plump Dj's remix has some twisty synth vibes that are hard to get right, and on this mix the transition into the next track (Refunk - Groovey) is very nice too. On inadequate systems the bass can be very disappointing.
I got some slightly more rare tunes that are good as well, and some more acoustic tracks that are good.
I prefer to test mainly with clean sounding electronic music and some breakbeat first because it is easier to find the most common problems that way.
If anything sticks out on basic tracks like these there is no point in stressing the system further because it just falls apart in a garbled mess with more demanding material.
One of my alltime favourites is this one, the vocals easily get ruined on smaller systems when pushed, much better if the mids do not have to do bass.
88.3 feat. Lisa May - Wishing on a star (Urban Shakedown mix)
https://youtu.be/CllpVN33uVg
Have not heard what any of these sounds like on youtube because I only use the lossless files in my collection.
For impact, if you turn it up and it feels as if that kick is attacking you physically then it's just right.
Simian Mobile Disco - Breaking time
This works because it's very clean, a fun track that I like to turn up loud for testing bass definition and general system balance and coherency:
The Seatbelts - Cats on Mars (DMX Krew remix)
Testing for bass phase issues/nulls/frequency response, when it starts the bass is more or less constant so if it disappears you got issues, feels like it can almost pressurize the room in some setups:
My Nu Leng - Knowing
This one is a bit embarassing as I usually strive to find things that are outside of the "pop" scope, but for a combination of kick impact, bass, balanced vocals and crispy highs it is very hard to beat:
Ace of Base - Living in danger (Old school mix)
Really like the track from Dopamine called "Hold you", the Plump Dj's remix has some twisty synth vibes that are hard to get right, and on this mix the transition into the next track (Refunk - Groovey) is very nice too. On inadequate systems the bass can be very disappointing.
I got some slightly more rare tunes that are good as well, and some more acoustic tracks that are good.
I prefer to test mainly with clean sounding electronic music and some breakbeat first because it is easier to find the most common problems that way.
If anything sticks out on basic tracks like these there is no point in stressing the system further because it just falls apart in a garbled mess with more demanding material.
One of my alltime favourites is this one, the vocals easily get ruined on smaller systems when pushed, much better if the mids do not have to do bass.
88.3 feat. Lisa May - Wishing on a star (Urban Shakedown mix)
https://youtu.be/CllpVN33uVg
Whatever floats your boat... it is after all movies... I think you need a Wall Of Sound.
( Somehow, I don't think you're gonna be using Class A amps in here... ).
( Somehow, I don't think you're gonna be using Class A amps in here... ).