FWIW, before spending the sort of money these speakers would cost, I'd think a lot more about what those terms actually mean. "Full" might mean a bump around 200Hz, but some might call that "muddy". etc etc etc.
Sound travels at 344m/s, and that's neither "fast" nor "slow". When multiple drivers are in use, you always lose extension at the top end (read up on comb filtering).
A further FWIW, if you're after cone area, go for bigger drivers. 1x 15" beats 4x 8"s - even if the cone areas are equal, the 15" will have much more linear excursion than any 8", meaning it will still put out more bass.
Chris
PA woofers often-not always dont go deep. Mostly a 40hz highpass filter is even used for live events to avoid problems from deep bass
Guerilla, you are right about pa drivers and habits for LIVE music events.
BUT in electronic ( dance) music this is not true. Bass Music genre ( and Dubstep) pushed boundary about low frequency in live events: some bands require 5hz with high SPL level for theyr live acts!
This is not easy to do but still it exist. Not wise to try this at home imho, you run risk of damage to building structure if you push level too much, and it is questionnable if nescessary ( i'm into Drum & Bass for a bit more than 20years and i don't see the need for lower than 30hz for 95% of track i play). In an outdoor live act, i see the point, indoor at home much less...
BUT in electronic ( dance) music this is not true. Bass Music genre ( and Dubstep) pushed boundary about low frequency in live events: some bands require 5hz with high SPL level for theyr live acts!
This is not easy to do but still it exist. Not wise to try this at home imho, you run risk of damage to building structure if you push level too much, and it is questionnable if nescessary ( i'm into Drum & Bass for a bit more than 20years and i don't see the need for lower than 30hz for 95% of track i play). In an outdoor live act, i see the point, indoor at home much less...
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I've heard of the big systems going down to 25Hz, and with M-Force drivers it's just about possible.
5Hz, however, I don't find believable. Do you have a source for this information?
I've worked in concert sound for a good few years now, and haven't heard of anyone attempting 5Hz.
Chris
Bass Nectar is one of the 'new' bands i was talking about.
Kraftwerk made a serie of preformance in France at fondation Cartier some years ago and they had a system which was able to produce 10hz or lower too.
We had a discussion here about that last year, will try to find it. One of the guy involved was into Bass Music and he talked about Meyer Sound subs iirc and the fact that US sound system brands and manufacturer was leading into this field.
To be honest i've heard 20hz capable sound systems ( clean and very high SPL capable) and for the kind of electronic music i was involved this was more than ok, but who knows, it was some times ago, i'm old now 🙂
Kraftwerk made a serie of preformance in France at fondation Cartier some years ago and they had a system which was able to produce 10hz or lower too.
We had a discussion here about that last year, will try to find it. One of the guy involved was into Bass Music and he talked about Meyer Sound subs iirc and the fact that US sound system brands and manufacturer was leading into this field.
To be honest i've heard 20hz capable sound systems ( clean and very high SPL capable) and for the kind of electronic music i was involved this was more than ok, but who knows, it was some times ago, i'm old now 🙂
Hi Chris,
This is the thread i talked about:
Realistically, how low is bass in music?
Look for Audioguppy's post.
About very low end contents ( single digits) rotary sub are probably used.
For the kind of very big electronic concerts they use insane amount of boxes and power to drive them. Nothing to do with the biggest sound sytems i've heard and/or played on. Something like a 50/1 ratio (20kw was the biggest i've played on, DB systems can't remember the exact reference, it was around 2004/2005, time goes by so fast!).
Sorry for the O.T. Threewayaddict, let's back on track.
This is the thread i talked about:
Realistically, how low is bass in music?
Look for Audioguppy's post.
About very low end contents ( single digits) rotary sub are probably used.
For the kind of very big electronic concerts they use insane amount of boxes and power to drive them. Nothing to do with the biggest sound sytems i've heard and/or played on. Something like a 50/1 ratio (20kw was the biggest i've played on, DB systems can't remember the exact reference, it was around 2004/2005, time goes by so fast!).
Sorry for the O.T. Threewayaddict, let's back on track.
So, well. Points have been made. Measurements don't say everything. Though the Accuton drivers might not have such great distortion graphs as one would expect, pretty bad actually, let alone for the price. They do still have their qualities being the advantage of the ceramic cones and their speed. In real life they will still sound exceptionally good. Especially considering distortion will be significantly lowered because of the large number of drivers, especially for the mid bass. Though, I've worked out the concept with Seas Excel drivers anyway.
I think six W22EX001s will be a better choice than four W26FX001s. The total length across which the drivers will be spread will be taller with six W22EX001s than with four W26FX001s, making for a better spreader radiating front in the room making for a better line source effect. Also, six W22EX001s and four W26FX001s have exactly the same Sd, so excursion for moving a certain amount of air will be exactly the same for both, though the four W26FX001s have about 1-1/2 as much moving mass as six W22EX001s and while they also have about 1-1/8 times lower force factor. And also in simulations is visible the W22EX001 have a quicker inputs response than the W26FX001. So, because the required excursion for both will be exactly the same, six W22EX001s WILL be quicker, make for a better spreader line source, and allow a more slender, more eye-appealing cabinet.
I think six W22EX001s will be a better choice than four W26FX001s. The total length across which the drivers will be spread will be taller with six W22EX001s than with four W26FX001s, making for a better spreader radiating front in the room making for a better line source effect. Also, six W22EX001s and four W26FX001s have exactly the same Sd, so excursion for moving a certain amount of air will be exactly the same for both, though the four W26FX001s have about 1-1/2 as much moving mass as six W22EX001s and while they also have about 1-1/8 times lower force factor. And also in simulations is visible the W22EX001 have a quicker inputs response than the W26FX001. So, because the required excursion for both will be exactly the same, six W22EX001s WILL be quicker, make for a better spreader line source, and allow a more slender, more eye-appealing cabinet.
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Measurements do say a lot. They can even show that some 'cheap' drivers perform better that some 'expensive' ones. The magic isn't in the drivers alone, but how well you can integrate them. One step further and you start looking at how well they integrate in your room.
You still have time... go out and see life performances. Both amplified and un-amplified. Let that become your reference. Not some high dollar system because it's expensive.
Go visit some DIY projects from locals near you. Listen to a variety of speakers and learn from that. Look at their room. Try to find some horns, single full range, Open Baffle, classic 3 way. Not the high dollar ones, some realistic projects.
It's not the price of the ingredients that determine it's outcome. It's how well it all plays together. I'd invite you but I do not have a bright top end 🙂. In fact, I hate that kind of presentation, it's just not what I hear with an acoustic live set in front of me.
Go out and listen to everything that seems even remotely interesting. Forget about the brandy sipping high end for a while and meet the real world. 🙂
That would be my advise anyway. It would probably make you stop thinking about tweeter mids and woofers and would get you closer to the music. That's where the real magic is.
You still have time... go out and see life performances. Both amplified and un-amplified. Let that become your reference. Not some high dollar system because it's expensive.
Go visit some DIY projects from locals near you. Listen to a variety of speakers and learn from that. Look at their room. Try to find some horns, single full range, Open Baffle, classic 3 way. Not the high dollar ones, some realistic projects.
It's not the price of the ingredients that determine it's outcome. It's how well it all plays together. I'd invite you but I do not have a bright top end 🙂. In fact, I hate that kind of presentation, it's just not what I hear with an acoustic live set in front of me.
Go out and listen to everything that seems even remotely interesting. Forget about the brandy sipping high end for a while and meet the real world. 🙂
That would be my advise anyway. It would probably make you stop thinking about tweeter mids and woofers and would get you closer to the music. That's where the real magic is.
Holy balls. Look at this! CSS just released a picture on their instagram of a prototype version of their SDX12 subwoofer with spun aluminum cone. This is gonna replace the Scan-Speak Revelator 32Ws. I already really liked the SDX12 and it's from pretty much the same price and performance level as the Scan-Speak. Though, in a battle of paper vs paper cone, I still thought the Scan-Speak will be slightly better than the CSS. But now that the CSS has aluminum cone, it has quite an advantage over the Scan-Speak. The aluminum cone will blend in better with the rest of the hard cone drivers in the system and I've been led to believe that metal cones in general can be slightly better at reproducing bass because of their higher strength and stiffness.
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Just because that CSS driver has a metal cone doesn't give it an advantage over the scanspeak driver. At low frequencies pretty much any decent cone is operating as a piston. There is no break-up to speak of, paper, poly, alu, ceramic, titanium, carbon fibre, whatever doesn't matter. It's higher up that the material makes the difference.
The scanspeak Revelator 32Ws are actually one of scanspeaks stand out products. Although all of scans drivers tend to be good some of them really hit a home run compared to others and this is one of them. I'm always about price/performance and usually advise people use more cost effective drivers but in the case of the 32Ws...there simply is no comparison, if you have the money to spend then spend it because you will not find better*. Caveat - providing its parameters suit your application.
*There could very well be better out there, but I have not seen measurements for it. Plus the scanspeak is so absurdly good better is relative in that performance-wise you can't really do better unless you can find the same performance for far less price.
I am of course speaking of the subwoofer optimised version with the +-14mm of xmax.
Having said all of that, and rather ironically, if scanspeak changed the cone to one of aluminium it would improve the drivers performance but only at high frequencies.
Here...
Test Bench: Scan-Speak 32W/4878T00 Subwoofer | audioXpress
You can see detailed measurements of it and if you look at the distortion it shows a peak in the 2nd harmonic centred around 550Hz, this is due to the cone. A well designed metal version would not have this. Of course given the intended application you'd never use the driver up this high. I doubt many would use it beyond 150Hz but it would be capable of going to 400Hz with a 4th order acoustic slope. So even with the non-metal cone it's performance vastly exceeds its requirements.
The scanspeak Revelator 32Ws are actually one of scanspeaks stand out products. Although all of scans drivers tend to be good some of them really hit a home run compared to others and this is one of them. I'm always about price/performance and usually advise people use more cost effective drivers but in the case of the 32Ws...there simply is no comparison, if you have the money to spend then spend it because you will not find better*. Caveat - providing its parameters suit your application.
*There could very well be better out there, but I have not seen measurements for it. Plus the scanspeak is so absurdly good better is relative in that performance-wise you can't really do better unless you can find the same performance for far less price.
I am of course speaking of the subwoofer optimised version with the +-14mm of xmax.
Having said all of that, and rather ironically, if scanspeak changed the cone to one of aluminium it would improve the drivers performance but only at high frequencies.
Here...
Test Bench: Scan-Speak 32W/4878T00 Subwoofer | audioXpress
You can see detailed measurements of it and if you look at the distortion it shows a peak in the 2nd harmonic centred around 550Hz, this is due to the cone. A well designed metal version would not have this. Of course given the intended application you'd never use the driver up this high. I doubt many would use it beyond 150Hz but it would be capable of going to 400Hz with a 4th order acoustic slope. So even with the non-metal cone it's performance vastly exceeds its requirements.
He's only 16 and looks are obviously a high priority 😱
Put a hot blonde, brunette, and redhead next to some chinese knock-offs and he'll fall for them in a heartbeat....so would I actually 😀
Isn't the Scan a paper over oriented foam-core design? 😕
If so, the metal cone won't be as rigid.
It's interesting that you say that. I've always been intrigued by foam core laminated cones but every time I've seen measurements of one they've always had the classic cone edge/surround resonance issues. 🙁
Then again I don't remember seeing a modern sandwich involving two thin skins of aluminium, like they apparently use in aerospace applications. Maybe it just doesn't work as well as a single sheet of alu or perhaps it's too expensive?
Well, remember the stiffer the cone the greater reaction to the surround resonance (all else equal).
-and the surround actually accounts for a fair bit of amplitude gain in the area around its resonance. ..sort of like an appended diaphragm.
Assuming the foam is the structural-sort and used correctly, there is very little deformation when compared to something like a sheet of formed metal. Even more so when you consider the foam is backed with paper and glue "constraining" the foam. Note though that even with this - you still get a fair bit of gain from the edge of the cone (..and it's something you can usually see when you measure really close to the driver's surface when compared to something like the dustcap-center, despite the surround "blocking" the transmission to an extent.)
Of course the termination of the foam + paper & glue could be a "wreak" structurally..
You'd probably need something like a B&K 3544 or Klippel scanning system to really get a good idea of all of this.
-and the surround actually accounts for a fair bit of amplitude gain in the area around its resonance. ..sort of like an appended diaphragm.
Assuming the foam is the structural-sort and used correctly, there is very little deformation when compared to something like a sheet of formed metal. Even more so when you consider the foam is backed with paper and glue "constraining" the foam. Note though that even with this - you still get a fair bit of gain from the edge of the cone (..and it's something you can usually see when you measure really close to the driver's surface when compared to something like the dustcap-center, despite the surround "blocking" the transmission to an extent.)
Of course the termination of the foam + paper & glue could be a "wreak" structurally..
You'd probably need something like a B&K 3544 or Klippel scanning system to really get a good idea of all of this.
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Probably the best solution at a far lower cost would be Rythmik Audio's 12" or 15" drivers with their highest "Servo" amp:
Rythmik Audio 15" servo driver• DS1501 DS1510 Direct Servo driver
Rythmik Audio • 12" servo subwoofer driver - DS1200
HX800XLR3
Rythmik Audio • Subwoofer plate amplifiers
Rythmik Audio 15" servo driver• DS1501 DS1510 Direct Servo driver
Rythmik Audio • 12" servo subwoofer driver - DS1200
HX800XLR3
Rythmik Audio • Subwoofer plate amplifiers
I measured SEAS MR18 cone nearfield at various radius. Normal on-axis shows peak at 4khz and I wanted to know where it comes from. Typically it is the edge but there are other possible causes too, see Klippel poster
Shared album - Juha Sirkka - Google Photos
And this is on-axis at variable distance
Shared album - Juha Sirkka - Google Photos
Shared album - Juha Sirkka - Google Photos
And this is on-axis at variable distance
Shared album - Juha Sirkka - Google Photos
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