Thanks for the condescension, but the guys working the rig, especially in the larger companies aren't necessarily the one's choosing it. And even if they hated it, they're not exactly in a position to say "We use Brand X and it sucks. I wanted to use Brand Y". I understand psychology and know how the world works.
I was there Saturday and Sunday. I've been looking at pictures that various reviewers and whatnot post and I still missed stuff (at least I think I did, and I had the guide book).
There were certainly things I liked quite a bit but felt like my ears were getting tired. It wasn't all tired ears. As an example, I was in one of the expensive rooms (6' tall speakers, 5 amps on the floor) when a reviewer put on, "The Astounding Eyes of Rita," which I'd never heard before. The sound that came from the speakers could be called nothing less than terrible resonance. I later heard that same track on a different system and could immediately pick out the instrument as bass clarinet (the song sounds good at home too). Most of the bigger rooms weren't great. Magico was fine but by the time you spend that kind of money you just need to hire the musicians.
While I'm not into the technical details of DSP (I use miniDSP in both my 2-channel and home theater for cross-over duties, delay, and some minor shaping of subwoofer frequencies), I was impressed that the Danville Signal room A/B test played with the higher frequencies without making it sound awful. There were other rooms where the DSP was gross (not going to throw anyone specifically under the bus).
As long as I live, I will never understand why anyone would try to demonstrate the quality of an audio system with a record that pops. Yet I was in room after room where the record made itself obvious.
I found this strange as well. I started to worry they'd blow a tweeter with some of the pops form the vinyl.
I was always impressed with White. They took the high road in a rigorous mathematical and principled way.
My made my first DSP speakers in 2006 based on the Behringer DCX2496 which had poor DA converters. For awhile I was tempted to go totally analog and even bought a White 10 band passive EQ but never got further than that.
BTW when I replaced the DCX2496 with a MiniDSP 2x4HD my brother took one listen and said “this sounds like a completely different system.“ Far superior.
The Flex Eight is in turn significantly better than the 2x4HD. Much lower noise and a creamier smoother sound. Digital hardware implementation makes a big difference and details matter.
It’s very easy to slip into overkill when designing with DSP, because there is an illusion that you can solve everything. It’s very tempting to start using 48 dB crossovers etc etc just because you can.
I apply only as much correction as it takes to get the job done and whenever possible use shelf filters instead of high or low pass filters because it costs less in terms of phase shift.
For example, a high Q shelf filter is a perfect, ultra simple electronic bass boost for a reflex sixth order alignment:
Thread 'DSP assisted reflex system'
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dsp-assisted-reflex-system.404349/
Yeah. They have so many phase problems.
Bad phase can be described as splashy, but I'm extrapolating here.
But you don't seem to understand how the touring music business works. Apologies if I'm condescending but you're making blanket statements that are mostly untrue and don't seem to come from a place of actual experience. The mixers almost always choose the rig. I hear many of them talking about which rigs they like and they don't like. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from here, but it's just not correct.
There are times where the mixers have to compromise on budget or they mix on a different rig at festivals and such, but when you're talking about the top tours in the world, the mixers are almost always choosing the rig. And these mixers almost always don't work for the audio companies. They are independent. They work with them but not for them. I'm not speaking of psychology and how the world works (I think that's a different thread). I'm speaking of the largest financially grossing tours in the world, which is what my original comment about D&B was. It's chosen more by the top tours than any other rig and it's by a long shot.
But you reacted exactly the same to the people who like the sound of active/DSP loudspeakers. There must be some sociological or psychological effect happening that I am unaware of.
You wrote your opinion that three of you didn't like the sound of active/DSP loudspeakers. Fine. But there are more than three people who liked active/DSP loudspeakers over the passive ones - just read the numerous reports from the same show, from other internet sources.
So, your opinion is just as relevant (or irrelevant) as any other, including the opposite ones. Good to hear your thoughts about the sound you heard at the show, but you have to respect other opinions different than yours.
You'd to well to lay off on the witchcraft and voodoo. And maybe try a tweeter that doesn't transform into a dull mess when you stand up. This isn't car audio where the primary listener is confined to small variations position. In the real world of home audio people move around. And when a speaker just dims when you stand up, that affects people's opinions of it.
That said, I've heard my fair share of Raal drivers as well as other ribbons (Fountek, Raven, LCY, the one the late Rick Craig imported, and so on), and I don't think there's anything special about them when seated either. Companies such as Neumann and Dutch & Dutch use fairly standard dome tweeters, but offer performance far superior to most because their system design and execution skills (and quality control) are simply better than most of their competitors.
This is my 3 way I listen to every day. This sounds sweeter and more relaxed than anything at the show. Outside of the one using all the accuton drivers mine wins in our book. My bass is more dynamic. The mids are sweeter and more musical. The tweeter is tighter but not harsh like a lot of them. We all agree these are within the top 5 from the show. So how does it compare? Above 95% of the speakers there and it is being driven by a little 20w class A amplifier with a fosi dac/preamp. Not too shabby.
Lets do one more
This one might be a little unfair as it is designed for your head to sit right inbetween the speakers. This is the best one. Nothing beats this for silky smooth and dynamic everything. If I can manage to get this sound to fill a room and not just a 10 degree listening window, this will destroy everything.
Everyone is proud of his DIY speaker and thinks it is the best loudspeaker in the world. You are not different.
Many years ago I build loudspeaker with Bohlender-Graebener NEO 8 PDR as mid/high driver (which is much better than the cheap knock-off GRS PT6825-8 you are using).
These days I am helping my friend to design loudspeaker using GRS PT6825-8 as mid and GRS PT2522-4 as tweeter. Distortion, frequency response and waterfall plots are worse than vintage NEO 8 PDR, although they are better than many conventional cone/dome loudspeakers.
In other thread I told you how you can make your speakers much better, by simple rearranging the position of drivers - planar tweeter, planar mid driver and woofer must be mounted exactly vertically above each other. Only than you can fill a room in a wide listening window. Also, you have to mount planar drivers flash to the front plate, to avoid diffraction (evident from your measurements).
Rather than the focus on the negative (DSP) as others here have, I was focusing on the positive. Since you all were so impressed with the MA speakers, it would have been very enlightening to see how they measure vs your own design, possibly more similar than dissimilar. Presumption being Porsche does measurements for his filters and such and would be willing to share with the DIY community.
I still have about 25 kilograms of passive crossover components, enough to build almost any configuration that I would consider.
The seemingly endless hours I've spent tinkering with those components to achieve results that can be matched or improved in a few minutes with DSP has been a priceless experience.
DSP has been around over 54 years, though arguably the implementations for speaker management were not equal to digital recordings until ~35 years ago.
Decent and affordable DSP using FIR filters is under two decades old, not legal to drink alcohol in many jurisdictions 😉
From the descriptions of what you heard at AXPONA, sounds like you didn't hear "mature" representation.
The last time I recall being "blown away" by the sound of speakers was the first time hearing Magnapan electrostatics about 50 years ago, but upon moving back out of the sweet spot, only large enough for one listener, their sound was not as good as basic two-way speakers a fraction of their size (and cost..).
That said, a properly designed system using equally high quality drivers and cabinets using DSP rather than passive crossovers should only make a subtle difference in music reproduction.
Subtle differences can easily be masked by background chatter, asymmetrical rooms, non-optimal speaker and listening positions and expectation bias.
The three most important things to learn about the effects of multiple woofers can be answered by any real estate agent: "location, location, location".
Art
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Did you check out the new La Scala? I didn't look very closely. It also wasn't playing when I was in the room. They claim the mid horn now has a bigger throat. Looked like 1" to me. They now come in two flavors of passive or active crossovers.
I've known Greg at Volti for some time. So, I can honestly say, it is not a 2" throat like how Greg modifies Belles and K-Horns and what he does with his own newly designed speakers. I wonder if Klipsch is referring to the diaphragm or if it is just marketing nonsense (also, the previous comments about Greg by some are a bit amusing).
It is interesting to see the homogenization of sound systems used in the top tiers of pro audio, compared to the variety of design approaches seen at a show like AXPONA.
On the top ten grossing 2024 tours, five of the front of house engineers chose to use DiGiCo digital mixing consoles, only one chose an analog console that was introduced in 1992.
All the front of house sound systems are DSP controlled line arrays of only slightly different "flavors", though the difference in the flavor preference has been changing 😉
Although Clair Global has nearly monopolized the touring sound world over the last 3 decades, D&B has moved up as a top tier speaker system choice:
___________________
D&B:
Taylor Swift-Eras Tour
Coldplay -Music of the Spheres Tour
P!nk-Summer Carnival, Trustfall and P!nk Live Tours
Zach Bryan -Quittin Time Tour 24
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Clair's “ i” or Cohesion systems:
Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band -2023-2025 Tour
The Rolling Stones-Hackney Diamonds Tour ‘24
Bad Bunny -Most Wanted Tour
___________________
L-Acoustics:
Madonna-The Celebration Tour
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Meyer Sound:
Metallica - M72 World Tour
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Outline:
Luke Combs: Growin’ Up and Gettin’ Old’ Tour
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Anyway, the line array flavors chosen for arenas don't have much in common with what might work well in a hotel room at AXPONA.
ElectroDynamic Planar. Much easier load then an ESL but not very efficientl.
Some 45 years ago a buddy had Magmepans with bog ARC electronics (and a Linn), sounded OPK.
dave
Want to sell the lot to me since you're done with them?
I am learning this as I mess with the Bagby's Calculator. All sort of different pro/cons depending on where you place them relative to the floor. I have definitely found out why I have a 100 hz dip in my tower speakers. Could have been fixed with two woofers though I'm not sure I would give up the dynamics of the single peerless (cabinet size was limited to a certain footprint).
I will be making a post about multiple woofers. Basically it will just be a mass of questions asked by me, but I want to word it in such a way that someone reading it years from now can get the same answers I currently seek. Still figuring out how to do that.
Being a manufacturing engineer, I am well versed in the "IKEA effect" and understand that I, as well as everyone, is completely biased.