With Marian's cooperation, our living room and dining room/sun room have been substantially re-arranged. The Metronomes are now in the LR about 2" from the wall. Wow! Did that ever make a difference! Not quite where I want the sound to be yet--still too 'bright'-- but SOOOOOO much better. Only trouble is that both aesthetically and acoustically it would be preferable to have them out just a bit more so that they aren't 'obscured' by the bookcase. See photo below.
Placement also has affected the Polk Rti6's. Moving them from stands (to make room for the Metronomes) onto the bookcase destroyed their sound stage. I will leave them there for the moment until we complete room re-arrangements--haven't decided which speakers go in the dining room & which move up to my office. Also visible are the Visonik David 602's and their associated sub.
I'm almost ready to start removing some of the foam lining from the interior front panels of the Metronomes.
Cheers, Jim
Placement also has affected the Polk Rti6's. Moving them from stands (to make room for the Metronomes) onto the bookcase destroyed their sound stage. I will leave them there for the moment until we complete room re-arrangements--haven't decided which speakers go in the dining room & which move up to my office. Also visible are the Visonik David 602's and their associated sub.
I'm almost ready to start removing some of the foam lining from the interior front panels of the Metronomes.
Cheers, Jim
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Good to hear they are sounding better Jim. They really are a boundary design and thrive on room gain. The damping reduction you are planning will have a knock-on effect in the midrange and will further balance up the speaker, making it sound less bright.
Once you get them right they are extremely even-tempered and smooth across the range they reproduce.
The smallest Metronome will never be a bass monster of course but they are capable of very satisfying sound quality when fully integrated with the room.
Steve
Once you get them right they are extremely even-tempered and smooth across the range they reproduce.
The smallest Metronome will never be a bass monster of course but they are capable of very satisfying sound quality when fully integrated with the room.
Steve
Steve,
My arms & hands are sore & bruised from trying to dig the foam out of the Metronomes.
That driver hole is SMALL.
What I could get out did move them in the right direction, so I'm taking a drill & saw to the port baffles to enhance access. When I get the foam out, I'll patch them back together as best I can. If they sound OK then, I may build new enclosures so that they are done right.
Cheers, Jim
My arms & hands are sore & bruised from trying to dig the foam out of the Metronomes.
That driver hole is SMALL.What I could get out did move them in the right direction, so I'm taking a drill & saw to the port baffles to enhance access. When I get the foam out, I'll patch them back together as best I can. If they sound OK then, I may build new enclosures so that they are done right.
Cheers, Jim
Yes
My arms were killing me for days after I ripped the lining out of mine.
Eventually I had to get my wife to drag the last bits out as she obviously has smaller
hands and slimmer arms than me.
I'm sorry you have had to go through this Jim.
I'll drop Dave an email and see if he can alter the drawings to remove the instruction
to line the cabinet. Obviously it is not his fault. The fault is entirely mine.
I think constructors would be better served if the instruction was to leave the cab unlined and just use wadding to tune the speaker to the room.
Once again, my apologies.
Steve
My arms were killing me for days after I ripped the lining out of mine.
Eventually I had to get my wife to drag the last bits out as she obviously has smaller
hands and slimmer arms than me.
I'm sorry you have had to go through this Jim.
I'll drop Dave an email and see if he can alter the drawings to remove the instruction
to line the cabinet. Obviously it is not his fault. The fault is entirely mine.
I think constructors would be better served if the instruction was to leave the cab unlined and just use wadding to tune the speaker to the room.
Once again, my apologies.
Steve
Steve,
No apologies needed! This is a DIY area and all caveats apply. Or, as Ben Franklin said in Poor Richards Almanac (IIRC): "Free advice, worth every penny you paid for it." I'm learning. I'm getting there.
Here's what it looked like when I took the drill & a key-hole saw to the port baffles:
I got the front & one side clear, w/ the exception of the very top, where there was no way to get the stuff out. Now I have to get them back together.
Cheers, Jim
No apologies needed! This is a DIY area and all caveats apply. Or, as Ben Franklin said in Poor Richards Almanac (IIRC): "Free advice, worth every penny you paid for it." I'm learning. I'm getting there.
Here's what it looked like when I took the drill & a key-hole saw to the port baffles:
I got the front & one side clear, w/ the exception of the very top, where there was no way to get the stuff out. Now I have to get them back together.
Cheers, Jim
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Steve Cresswell said:
I have mine about 3 inches from the rear wall and if you look on the frugal horn site you will see that the big Metronomes either side of the TV are also very near to the wall in Lousymusician's room.
The original design brief when I developed the FE108EZ Metronome was to make a quarter wave speaker that would work in a small room up close to a wall or even in a corner that would look good and appeal to the female sense of aesthetics. It therefore has a very steep rolloff below its driver's Fs and relies on the proximity of the walls and floor to provide gain at the bottom
...
I would love to have a go with my FE108EZ Metronomes in corners as I think they would sound great, but it would involve too much swapping of furniture around. One day I might try it whilst the wife is out if I can get over the inertia.
Perhaps you could try yours in corners and report on their sound. I might then get off my *** and try it myself.
Steve.
Apologies if this should go in the Spawn-of-Frugal-Horn thread ...
Steve or anyone, can you comment on the room placement preferences for the bipole Metronomes on Dave's website (http://www.frugal-horn.com/metronome.html)? It's my understanding that the bipole reduces/eliminates the need for BSC. What does that then imply for optimal placement ?
Cheers,
Ryan
I patched the gutted Metronomes back together using duct tape to hold the cut-out piece in place and secured it with a piece of 1/8 inch plywood and screws. Not ideal, but good enough to test out the system.
And OH MY! What a difference! Now they're sounding good!
I just received the four test CDs from Stereophile and purchased a sound level meter from Radio Shack. Not sure yet how to make meaningful measurements, but when I listen to the 1/3 octave warble tones, I hear response down to 50 Hz, with something still there are 40 Hz. I think they are producing a response close to the graphs in posts #26 & #28.
Photo below shows the patch on the port baffle. When I get everything to my liking, I plan to build a new set of cabinets using all I have learned, including veneering the entire sides so that not only are the edges of the birch ply covered, but the butt joint as well. And I think I will make the port baffle removable for 'emergency access.' I only used half of the 4x8 ft sheet of plywood constructing the Metronomes, so there is sufficient material left for the final version.
Again, my thanks to Steve, Scott, Dave, and Martin for their contributions! I couldn't have done this without all your help.
Cheers, Jim
And OH MY! What a difference! Now they're sounding good!
I just received the four test CDs from Stereophile and purchased a sound level meter from Radio Shack. Not sure yet how to make meaningful measurements, but when I listen to the 1/3 octave warble tones, I hear response down to 50 Hz, with something still there are 40 Hz. I think they are producing a response close to the graphs in posts #26 & #28.
Photo below shows the patch on the port baffle. When I get everything to my liking, I plan to build a new set of cabinets using all I have learned, including veneering the entire sides so that not only are the edges of the birch ply covered, but the butt joint as well. And I think I will make the port baffle removable for 'emergency access.' I only used half of the 4x8 ft sheet of plywood constructing the Metronomes, so there is sufficient material left for the final version.
Again, my thanks to Steve, Scott, Dave, and Martin for their contributions! I couldn't have done this without all your help.
Cheers, Jim
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Jim Shearer said:
Hi Jim,
I'm just glad you like them now and have gotten them working properly.
The smallest model is a very nice speaker when set up right.
Now just wait until you hear the imaging these things are capable of.
If you do Martin's BSC circuit first, then get them a little further out (maybe 12 inches from the wall max or you'll start to lose the bass) you will be stunned at the soundstage these things can throw.
Last year Scott, myself and a few others had a bit of a Fostex shoot-out at Steve Shiels' place in North Yorks. Both my Metronomes and Scott's early version of the Harvey Double horn enclosures threw such a realistic soundstage that we could quite literally look around the backs of the performers and walk around in the image. We had to do it a couple of times just to make sure we were not going crazy.
Steve.
BHD said:
Yes... althou a whole new round of modification experiments may temper that.
Yes the extra efficiency of the FE126 is nice, but it isn't quite as smooth. And in the metronome will likely struggle a bit more in the bass. As a bipole, the efficiency will still be 93 dB on axis, but you will have much flatter power response in room.
dave
The 127 would also be my choice of the two units for a resonant cabinet -it's Q makes it a better natural match for this sort of cabinet design.
Glad you've got yours singing properly now Jim. As Steve mentioned, I well remember being able to walk around the image his original pair produced. Impressive stuff.
Glad you've got yours singing properly now Jim. As Steve mentioned, I well remember being able to walk around the image his original pair produced. Impressive stuff.
Congratulations Jim!
I had similar experience with fullrange drivers (Fostex FE206E and Visaton B200) . In the beginning, they both sounded so screechy, tiny, awful! I was sure they were a waste of money. Thanks to the help of guys on this forum, I’ve learned ways to tweak fullrange drivers, and be more patient. Over time sound really improves.
What I would suggest is to build (or buy) some of the Pass Firstwatt amplifiers. F2 is a simple amp that should work wonderfully with your Metronomes.
Best Regards,
Vix
I had similar experience with fullrange drivers (Fostex FE206E and Visaton B200) . In the beginning, they both sounded so screechy, tiny, awful! I was sure they were a waste of money. Thanks to the help of guys on this forum, I’ve learned ways to tweak fullrange drivers, and be more patient. Over time sound really improves.
What I would suggest is to build (or buy) some of the Pass Firstwatt amplifiers. F2 is a simple amp that should work wonderfully with your Metronomes.
Best Regards,
Vix
Jim Shearer said:
Building an F2 shouldn't be hard, you'll enjoy it. Have a look at Pass labs section of this forum, there are some nice people willing to help.
For the beginning, read owner and service manuals posted by Mr. Nelson Pass at http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads.htm
Mr. Pass is a great, generous and appoachable person. He's got a lot of understanding for beginners and will ofter reply personally on the forum.
Also, have a look here:
http://www.passdiy.com/amps.htm
It is an easy and funny way of learning about amplifiers.
I suggest that you start with the original Zen (it is a basis for F2).
F2 review is here:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt2/f2.html
It may look as if I am advertising Pass labs, Firstwatt, and praising Mr. Pass. Well, I admire him.
He did a lot for DIY community. Emotions aside, Zen and Fisrtwatt series amps are a very good match to your speakers, and it would be a pity not to have a look at them...
Best regards,
Vix
Martin came over this afternoon to hear the Metronomes. I will let him speak for himself about his opinion of the Fostex FE108 drivers, but I will go so far as to say that he seemed pleased.
The system:
- Metronome enclosures w/ Fostex FE108E(sigma) drivers (as described in earlier posts.)
- Yamaha CR-1000 receiver (vintage 1976)
- Denon DCM-260 CD player
- Radio Shack gold ends RCA type interconnects
- 16 gauge lamp cord speaker wire
The Metronomes were doing OK set 2” from the wall, but there was still something wrong with the frequency balance. Bass was strong down to 50 Hz, and still significant output at 40 Hz. (I will make a post about effects on bass of wall/corner placement tomorrow.) However, the bass output had a ‘bump’ up over the mids, and there was a rising high end. It was listenable, but not great. The problem could be partially tamed by use of tone controls and filters on the CR-1000, though not to my satisfaction.
Then Martin added in the baffle-step correction circuit and we moved the Metronomes out 12” from the wall. The frequency balance issues smoothed out, and imaging, sound stage and ‘airiness’ improved. The BSC is the difference between an OK pair of speakers and a GREAT pair of speakers. Maybe you could ameliorate these issues somewhat by using a tube amp and different speaker wire, but I don’t see any need to go that route. I’m a total convert to Martin’s BSC circuit!
I will continue experimenting w/ placement and adjusting the BSC to see if I can get further improvement (although I can't imagine it getting any better.)
At the end, we added in my Polk PSW-10 sub to fill in another octave on the bottom. It was connected to the receiver’s pre-amp outputs with RCA type interconnects. I set the cross-over to 40Hz and guessed at the volume level. This filled out the sound quite nicely. I didn’t hear any problems w/ blending the sub and the Metronomes. I have been using subs since the early ‘80s (on some of my systems,) so it should be no surprise that I recommend adding a sub to speakers with a limited bottom end. A modest sub will do very well. Just to fill out the sound of the very low end of instruments like bass drums and organs. (I will leave the huge, room shaking subs to the home theater folks.)
Now I'm looking at the Metronomes and saying, "This is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!"
Cheers, Jim
The system:
- Metronome enclosures w/ Fostex FE108E(sigma) drivers (as described in earlier posts.)
- Yamaha CR-1000 receiver (vintage 1976)
- Denon DCM-260 CD player
- Radio Shack gold ends RCA type interconnects
- 16 gauge lamp cord speaker wire
The Metronomes were doing OK set 2” from the wall, but there was still something wrong with the frequency balance. Bass was strong down to 50 Hz, and still significant output at 40 Hz. (I will make a post about effects on bass of wall/corner placement tomorrow.) However, the bass output had a ‘bump’ up over the mids, and there was a rising high end. It was listenable, but not great. The problem could be partially tamed by use of tone controls and filters on the CR-1000, though not to my satisfaction.
Then Martin added in the baffle-step correction circuit and we moved the Metronomes out 12” from the wall. The frequency balance issues smoothed out, and imaging, sound stage and ‘airiness’ improved. The BSC is the difference between an OK pair of speakers and a GREAT pair of speakers. Maybe you could ameliorate these issues somewhat by using a tube amp and different speaker wire, but I don’t see any need to go that route. I’m a total convert to Martin’s BSC circuit!
I will continue experimenting w/ placement and adjusting the BSC to see if I can get further improvement (although I can't imagine it getting any better.)
At the end, we added in my Polk PSW-10 sub to fill in another octave on the bottom. It was connected to the receiver’s pre-amp outputs with RCA type interconnects. I set the cross-over to 40Hz and guessed at the volume level. This filled out the sound quite nicely. I didn’t hear any problems w/ blending the sub and the Metronomes. I have been using subs since the early ‘80s (on some of my systems,) so it should be no surprise that I recommend adding a sub to speakers with a limited bottom end. A modest sub will do very well. Just to fill out the sound of the very low end of instruments like bass drums and organs. (I will leave the huge, room shaking subs to the home theater folks.)
Now I'm looking at the Metronomes and saying, "This is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!"
Cheers, Jim
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