Yes, there may be a major difference in sound quality. Or not. Until you can actually compare the two, you can't say anything conclusive.
Are you sure the Adam T5V polypropylene driver is a cheap one? How much does it cost to by it?
What is wrong with the Class D amplifiers? Are they inferior to AB amplifier? What is the cost of a new AB amplifier of your choosing? When you add the $400 loudspeaker, how much is the total cost? Can you buy an active studio monitor for the same amount of money, but with comparable (or better) sound quality? I bet you can.
Most of the people will sell their amplifier, and choose an active studio monitor instead. If you add $400 dollars (for the speaker kit) to the money from the sold amplifier, you can you by, for the same price, an active studio monitor with better sound quality.
But for the people who insists on keeping their old amplifier (for whatever reason), loudspeaker kit is a good option.
Why doubts? What is wrong with Polk loudspeakers? Which claims are not true?
We are going around and around in repeated circles here and I don’t see much point in continuing it. So I’ll sum up my position.
For a lot less than the $1,000 price of the R700, for example, you can buy a set of outstanding drivers from independent manufacturers such as Seas, ScanSpeak, SB Acoustics, and others, that will far outperform the ones Polk uses in that speaker. Add in the cost for crossovers and cabinet materials and your total cost is still much less than $1,000. But even more important is that with the much better drivers the sound quality will far exceed the Polk product.
Now you can either believe that or not. Most of the people here on this DIY website I think believe that. Otherwise there would be no point to DIY to begin with and this forum would not exist.
And as far as people’s time to build the speakers is concerned that is a non issue for most here, and carries no dollar value. This is a hobby. So the cost for time is irrelevant. In fact, there is usually a great deal of satisfaction and enjoyment with the time spent building the speaker project.
With regard to this particular thread discussing a new commercial product line I have taken the position that it doesn’t belong here. It should be over on one of the Home Theater websites, because that is clearly the market for these products. Of course, Polk would be happy to sell them into the audiophile market as well, but they certainly were not intended or designed for that purpose.
For a lot less than the $1,000 price of the R700, for example, you can buy a set of outstanding drivers from independent manufacturers such as Seas, ScanSpeak, SB Acoustics, and others, that will far outperform the ones Polk uses in that speaker. Add in the cost for crossovers and cabinet materials and your total cost is still much less than $1,000. But even more important is that with the much better drivers the sound quality will far exceed the Polk product.
Now you can either believe that or not. Most of the people here on this DIY website I think believe that. Otherwise there would be no point to DIY to begin with and this forum would not exist.
And as far as people’s time to build the speakers is concerned that is a non issue for most here, and carries no dollar value. This is a hobby. So the cost for time is irrelevant. In fact, there is usually a great deal of satisfaction and enjoyment with the time spent building the speaker project.
With regard to this particular thread discussing a new commercial product line I have taken the position that it doesn’t belong here. It should be over on one of the Home Theater websites, because that is clearly the market for these products. Of course, Polk would be happy to sell them into the audiophile market as well, but they certainly were not intended or designed for that purpose.
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Spoiler: many famous loudspeaker brands use the same outstanding drivers from Seas, ScanSpeak, SB Acoustics and others, in quantities of thousands, for laughable low price which any DIY enthusiast can only dream about.
Obviously, you don't have a clue how much does it cost to make a well-finished cabinets, comparable to a cabinets from a $1,000 commercial loudspeaker. Trust me, it will cost you a substantial portion of those $1,000, unless you are a master woodworker with all the necessary tools. Otherwise, yes - you can design and make a DIY loudspeaker with better sound quality (and lousy cabinets), but only if you are skilled expert with good measuring equipment. Or, you can by an excellent loudspeaker kit designed by a knowledgeable expert and slam it to a lousy cabinets - all for less than $1,000.
Can you see the pattern?
DIY loudspeakers (and forums) exists for fun/satisfaction/enjoyment, for better sound quality, or for better cabinets. Building time is part of the fun for all DIY fans.
DIY loudspeakers? Yes, I am all in. But I do respect some loudspeaker manufacturers.
How on Earth you determined in advance that Polk R700 must be worse than DIY loudspeaker, without listening to them?! Of course, they may sucks, but we don't know that now, do we? By the way, the tweeter in Polk R700 suspiciously looks like ScanSpeak Ring Radiator tweeter.
Obviously, you don't have a clue how much does it cost to make a well-finished cabinets, comparable to a cabinets from a $1,000 commercial loudspeaker. Trust me, it will cost you a substantial portion of those $1,000, unless you are a master woodworker with all the necessary tools. Otherwise, yes - you can design and make a DIY loudspeaker with better sound quality (and lousy cabinets), but only if you are skilled expert with good measuring equipment. Or, you can by an excellent loudspeaker kit designed by a knowledgeable expert and slam it to a lousy cabinets - all for less than $1,000.
Can you see the pattern?
DIY loudspeakers (and forums) exists for fun/satisfaction/enjoyment, for better sound quality, or for better cabinets. Building time is part of the fun for all DIY fans.
DIY loudspeakers? Yes, I am all in. But I do respect some loudspeaker manufacturers.
How on Earth you determined in advance that Polk R700 must be worse than DIY loudspeaker, without listening to them?! Of course, they may sucks, but we don't know that now, do we? By the way, the tweeter in Polk R700 suspiciously looks like ScanSpeak Ring Radiator tweeter.
No, there are only 6 different one-inch models with silver phase plug. If we eliminate the most expensive models, there are only three left: R3004/602000, R3004/602006 and R3004/602010. Further, we can exclude R3004/602000 because it has 86 dB/2.83/1m sensitivity, which is lower than the 88 dB sensitivity of Polk R700. Also, we can exclude R3004/602006 because it is an automotive tweeter. What is left is only one model: ScanSpeak R3004/602010. Without the face plate and protective metal mesh, of course. That is even cheaper - for Polk Audio.
I don't want to take a side in this argument. Based on past Polk offerings, I am confident the current Polk line-up is competitive in sound quality to others in the same price range.... and my experience with a very low priced speaker, Cambridge Audio SX50, has been positive. Good sound for the price.
That is overstating it a bit. Buying 1000 units might get you a 15% -20% discount, but you will not get a price that is a tiny fraction of what a DIY person pays.
I have been following the commercial hi-fi speaker market for 35 years. I noticed a trend long ago that still holds true. The retail price for a speaker tends to be 5X to 10X the cost of the drivers.
To quote myself from an earlier thread
That is overstating it a bit. Buying 1000 units might get you a 15% -20% discount, but you will not get a price that is a tiny fraction of what a DIY person pays.
I have been following the commercial hi-fi speaker market for 35 years. I noticed a trend long ago that still holds true. The retail price for a speaker tends to be 5X to 10X the cost of the drivers.
To quote myself from an earlier thread
Sorry, but that can't be it. Comparing the pictures of both tweeters the shapes of the cones and the metal points are not even close to each other.
I think the broad statement that DIY can save 5x to 10x times versus commercial speakers is not valid because one needs to take into account cost of drivers, boxes and finish for it to be a true comparison. Otherwise it’s a biased comparison.
Case in point, take these commercial speakers – Salksound’s Song Surround – it’s a 5+1 monitor using Seas ER15 woofers and Hiquiphon OW1 tweeters. Costs of drivers = 140 + 260 = 400. XO part = 100 appx. Boxes + Hardware + Finish = 100 minimum, so total = 400 + 100 + 100 = 600 compared to 900 – 1000 finished speakers. The XO design is by D. Murphy so it’s likely to be solid. Now it’s commercial vs DIY at 1.5x to 1.6x or 300 – 400 higher with commercial speakers most likely having superior finish. Is it worth it DIY when one can get a pair of speakers like these? I’m not so sure…
I think DIY doesn’t make a lot of sense when one is after one of thousands of 5+1 or 6+1 monitor designs out there where manufacturers get quantity discount or the design is simple. DIY gets interesting when we’re talking about off-the-beaten-path designs.
From personal experience, my DIY speakers are Eminence Delta Pro 12 woofers + Denovo DNA350 compression tweeters + Pi speakers H290C horn (Eminence clone) in 3.5 cu ft boxes actively crossed using Zoudio DSP + 4-channel amp via DIYINHK’s USB-to-I2s converter. There is no DAC, no AD/DA conversion. I arrived at this design after many iterations of passive and active XOs. How much time and money did I spend on this compared to a commercial design? Don’t know, don’t care. There is simply no equivalent commercial design out there.
Also, there are many interesting commercial designs out there that’s worth looking into… maybe we can learn something… Take Dutch & dutch 8c speakers for example, are there equivalent DIY designs out there @ 10% - 20% the cost? Or even at any cost? I don’t think so, it’s pretty unique…
Case in point, take these commercial speakers – Salksound’s Song Surround – it’s a 5+1 monitor using Seas ER15 woofers and Hiquiphon OW1 tweeters. Costs of drivers = 140 + 260 = 400. XO part = 100 appx. Boxes + Hardware + Finish = 100 minimum, so total = 400 + 100 + 100 = 600 compared to 900 – 1000 finished speakers. The XO design is by D. Murphy so it’s likely to be solid. Now it’s commercial vs DIY at 1.5x to 1.6x or 300 – 400 higher with commercial speakers most likely having superior finish. Is it worth it DIY when one can get a pair of speakers like these? I’m not so sure…
I think DIY doesn’t make a lot of sense when one is after one of thousands of 5+1 or 6+1 monitor designs out there where manufacturers get quantity discount or the design is simple. DIY gets interesting when we’re talking about off-the-beaten-path designs.
From personal experience, my DIY speakers are Eminence Delta Pro 12 woofers + Denovo DNA350 compression tweeters + Pi speakers H290C horn (Eminence clone) in 3.5 cu ft boxes actively crossed using Zoudio DSP + 4-channel amp via DIYINHK’s USB-to-I2s converter. There is no DAC, no AD/DA conversion. I arrived at this design after many iterations of passive and active XOs. How much time and money did I spend on this compared to a commercial design? Don’t know, don’t care. There is simply no equivalent commercial design out there.
Also, there are many interesting commercial designs out there that’s worth looking into… maybe we can learn something… Take Dutch & dutch 8c speakers for example, are there equivalent DIY designs out there @ 10% - 20% the cost? Or even at any cost? I don’t think so, it’s pretty unique…
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You have brought up an important alternative to mass produced commercial speakers sold mainly through retail.
Boutique companies such as Salk Sound offer a far greater value than major consumer brands like Polk. By selling direct they eliminate all the money that would otherwise be going to the wholesaler and retailer. Plus they tend to deal with very high quality products.
The selling price of 5 to 10 times the driver cost applies really only to major retail consumer brands such as Polk and that is what has been the main point of this discussion.
Anyone who doesn't want to go the whole DIY route may want to consider Salk as well as some other boutique companies such as Selah.
Boutique companies such as Salk Sound offer a far greater value than major consumer brands like Polk. By selling direct they eliminate all the money that would otherwise be going to the wholesaler and retailer. Plus they tend to deal with very high quality products.
The selling price of 5 to 10 times the driver cost applies really only to major retail consumer brands such as Polk and that is what has been the main point of this discussion.
Anyone who doesn't want to go the whole DIY route may want to consider Salk as well as some other boutique companies such as Selah.
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... and... I was not making the case that a person can save 5x to 10x the cost... I was simply saying that for most commercial speakers, the cost of the drivers represent 10% to 20% of the retail cost, the rest going to cabinet construction, crossover parts, packaging, shipping, OEM profit, retail markup, and everything else.
Cabinet costs for DIY can vary a lot, and most of us spend more than we need to on cabinets. Of course, we do not put a cost value on our time... we could be spending money for the privilege of playing golf. We could be spending money for the privilege of watching a sporting event. But instead, we spend money for the privilege of building audio systems.
Cabinet costs for DIY can vary a lot, and most of us spend more than we need to on cabinets. Of course, we do not put a cost value on our time... we could be spending money for the privilege of playing golf. We could be spending money for the privilege of watching a sporting event. But instead, we spend money for the privilege of building audio systems.
If you are buying from reseller or distributor - yes, that is correct.
But if you are buying directly from the factory - well... you will be pleasantly surprised, believe me.
Maybe. Or maybe it is a ScanSpeak custom design for Polk.
If you have any evidence that Polk ring tweeter is inferior to ScanSpeak R3004/602010, please “speak now, or forever hold your peace”.
Oh yeah, you're right. Of course. All ring tweeters sound exactly the same.
Doesn't matter who makes them or how much they cost.
It's really that simple and I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.
Thank you so much for making it clear to the rest of us who foolishly thought that there might be a difference.
Doesn't matter who makes them or how much they cost.
It's really that simple and I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.
Thank you so much for making it clear to the rest of us who foolishly thought that there might be a difference.
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